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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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[X] Yes, join the Order of the Cauldron

If I thought it had a chance this late, I'd do a write-in about how we're going to be drawing attention and asking them if they're really sure that they want two Exalts joining, with all that that entails, and give them the opportunity for informed consent. But I'm not sure if that has a chance of winning at this point, so I'm going for the next best option.
 
DragonParadox said:
What do you reply?
[] Yes, join the Order of the Cauldron
[] No, do not join the Order of the Cauldron
[] Write in
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Im going to go with no. Dont take on more responsibility than you can manage at the moment.

Yes, we could use them. But as far as Im aware, they dont want to be used.
And that close an association with Molly makes our enemies their enemies. And they really dont want our enemies. Especially since their principal goal is self defense and survival, not crusading to change the current order.

These are not the Jade Dogs.

Furthermore, formally joining them increases the threat surface for our enemies to attack us on.
Pauline for example has a husband and kids. Olivia, not seen here, has kids as well.
We currently do not have the resources to prevent harm, just avenge it.


Also, too close association with Molly at this stage would potentially drive off a significant percentage of potential mortal recruits.
People sensitive to, or wary of, Molly's....everything. Which means a net result of less people being protected.
The juice isnt worth the squeeze.

They serve us better as a friendly but independent organization than as a subordinate one.
One that soaks up a lot of the local practitioners and makes them a hardened target that is less vulnerable to predation, which frees us up to address actual serious business.

And a source of intelligence tips/early warning of magical badness in the local community.

Think what the Paranet was to Dresden in Dresden Files; they sprang up from the survivors of the Ordo Lebes in canon.
Refuge, early warning, intelligence. What they currently need is some funding and a proper push at national expansion.
Maybe Molly showing up in each city with a chapter to set up a refuge with superduperwards.

None of which requires Molly being a member, and some of which is actively impeded by our membership.
Approval voting

VOTE
[X] No, do not join the Order of the Cauldron


[X] Write in, Plan Viser!
-[X] Had you not been what you are, you'd have joined in a heartbeat. As it was, they can likely see well, what you do. Joining directly would have implications on many fronts. Instead, would they be willing to accept you as an aid, possible protector, sorta kinda joined wink wink nudge nudge. Basically you like them lots, but you don't want them to be overwhelmed by your official presence.
-[X] Lydia is naturally someone different though, and she has her own voice! She also has your very complete support.
 
Yog said:
By this reasoning we definitely shouldn't be associating with Rosie or maintaining social ties with our mundane school friends. Our involvement gives these people a lot of options, many of which start "use Molly as a power tap to strongly upscale our available resources". I kinda expect a lot of enchantment to happen if we join, making protective objects for the mortals. I don't think that any special reprisal would happen against them if we keep associating with them, unless and until they start to actively help us in our actions (and I mean beyond "being involved in making various enchanted objects for us"). I mean, Harry associated with the Alphas, and they didn't face any special attacks.
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Rosie we can protect. We dont have many school friends, and they keep a relatively low profile.

Do you realize how many potential Ordo Lebes recruits there are? How many of them have families?
Thomas evacuated around two dozen women and children in White Night just by sniping potential victims of the villains, and that wasnt counting the core element of the Ordo Lebes then or the ones who got murdered aforehand.

Who is making these enchanted objects? Certainly not Molly.

We literally have zero dots in Enchantment, neither does Lydia, and we're focused on preparing for Mab in a couple months.
Thats in addition to the Jade Dogs who we've already taken responsibility for, the renegade vampires we havent met, and the Dragons Nest we have committed to building.

You are threatening to bite off way more than we can currently chew.
 
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uju32 said:
Rosie we can protect. We dont have many school friends, and they keep a relatively low profile.

Do you realize how many potential Ordo Lebes recruits there are? How many of them have families?
Thomas evacuated around two dozen women and children in White Night just by sniping potential victims of the villains, and that wasnt counting the core element of the Ordo Lebes then or the ones who got murdered aforehand.

Who is making these enchanted objects? Certainly not Molly.

We literally have zero dots in Enchantment, neither does Lydia, and we're focused on preparing for Mab in a couple months.
Thats in addition to the Jade Dogs who we've already taken responsibility for, the renegade vampires we havent met, and the Dragons Nest we have committed to building.

You are threatening to bite off way more than we can currently chew.
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1) As far as I understand, this is essentially a mutual defense pact here. In this, Molly and Lydia would provide raw firepower, while the members of the Ordo Lebes would provide their feeble skills. We'd essentially be buying access to 1 dot in most of the paths in exchange for participating in their activities and providing backup / protection for them.

2) Unlike Jade Dogs, these are actual human people with human people skills and connections. Who we could use in more things than magic. Helen should be good with money, for example. I bet there's someone who knows construction-related skills. They could in principle help with Dragon's nest.

3) We could verify their loyalty pretty easily. Use any of them as a focus, and ask for traitorous members of the organization.

The main point: I don't think they'll be a net drain on our resources.
 
Yog said:
I mean, Harry associated with the Alphas, and they didn't face any special attacks.
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Point of correction: This is wrong.
There is literally a short story about the Winter Lady sending her personal handmaiden Jenny Greenteeth to fuck with Billy and George's wedding because they killed her hitwoman while protecting Dresden.

As, in, she wasnt just trying to kill them, Jenny Greenteeth had George kidnapped and a ringer take her place during the wedding so that when Billy said his vows to the ringer, the ringer would then have him magically enslaved by the power of his vows.

Karrin Murphy was personally targeted by the Blampire Mavra in order to blackmail Dresden into recovering the Word of Kemmler in Dead Beat. In White Night, she had her car blown up by a car bomb. In Small Favor, she was shot by a hitman.
Thomas Raith was kidnapped and tortured by the naagloshii in Turn Coat.

There were canonically significant risks for being known as Harry's friend.
Never think otherwise.
 
I don't see being a member of the Order as costing us much in the way of time or resources. It's not like there are membership fees or timecards we have to punch each week.

It's a very loose organization of people that otherwise go about their regular lives the vast majority of the time, who likely only come together outside of social visits when working together on group projects like the one we just participated in.
 
[X] No, do not join the Order of the Cauldron


[X] Write in, Plan Viser!
-[X] Had you not been what you are, you'd have joined in a heartbeat. As it was, they can likely see well, what you do. Joining directly would have implications on many fronts. Instead, would they be willing to accept you as an aid, possible protector, sorta kinda joined wink wink nudge nudge. Basically you like them lots, but you don't want them to be overwhelmed by your official presence.
-[X] Lydia is naturally someone different though, and she has her own voice! She also has your very complete support.
 
uju32 said:
Point of correction: This is wrong.
There is literally a short story about the Winter Lady sending her personal handmaiden Jenny Greenteeth to fuck with Billy and George's wedding because they killed her hitwoman while protecting Dresden.

As, in, she wasnt just trying to kill them, Jenny Greenteeth had George kidnapped and a ringer take her place during the wedding so that when Billy said his vows to the ringer, the ringer would then have him magically enslaved by the power of his vows.
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That was for something they did, not for their association with Dresden.
 
[X] Yes, join the Order of the Cauldron
[X] Write in, Plan Viser!
-[X] Had you not been what you are, you'd have joined in a heartbeat. As it was, they can likely see well, what you do. Joining directly would have implications on many fronts. Instead, would they be willing to accept you as an aid, possible protector, sorta kinda joined wink wink nudge nudge. Basically you like them lots, but you don't want them to be overwhelmed by your official presence.
-[X] Lydia is naturally someone different though, and she has her own voice! She also has your very complete support.

@DragonParadox I really liked the Jade Dogs and the narrative in the encounter, but I was primarily looking forward to the group of whampires near the Dragon's Nest. Will they be showing in future updates still in the current month(turn) or will you roll for type of minion we get every month(turn), with them in the list?
 
Azais said:
[X] Yes, join the Order of the Cauldron
[X] Write in, Plan Viser!
-[X] Had you not been what you are, you'd have joined in a heartbeat. As it was, they can likely see well, what you do. Joining directly would have implications on many fronts. Instead, would they be willing to accept you as an aid, possible protector, sorta kinda joined wink wink nudge nudge. Basically you like them lots, but you don't want them to be overwhelmed by your official presence.
-[X] Lydia is naturally someone different though, and she has her own voice! She also has your very complete support.

@DragonParadox I really liked the Jade Dogs and the narrative in the encounter, but I was primarily looking forward to the group of whampires near the Dragon's Nest. Will they be showing in future updates still in the current month(turn) or will you roll for type of minion we get every month(turn), with them in the list?
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There are certainly some of them down there so odds are you will be encountering them yeah
 
Also, a point of order - these are grown women, at least some of whom understand the dangers of their existence. Many of them have suffered in this life. They understand at least some of the risks. They are asking us to join on their own free will. Let's not infantilize them too much. If we think that joining them puts their lives at risk, explain your doubts to them, and, if they still want us to join, do so.
 
Yog said:
1) As far as I understand, this is essentially a mutual defense pact here. In this, Molly and Lydia would provide raw firepower, while the members of the Ordo Lebes would provide their feeble skills. We'd essentially be buying access to 1 dot in most of the paths in exchange for participating in their activities and providing backup / protection for them.

2) Unlike Jade Dogs, these are actual human people with human people skills and connections. Who we could use in more things than magic. Helen should be good with money, for example. I bet there's someone who knows construction-related skills. They could in principle help with Dragon's nest.

3) We could verify their loyalty pretty easily. Use any of them as a focus, and ask for traitorous members of the organization.

The main point: I don't think they'll be a net drain on our resources.
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1)Molly and Lydia can provide that firepower without being members.
All we need to do is provide our number and be their friends/advisors/consultants. Achieves the same purpose without scaring away recruits.

If the point is access to their services, just offer them money. Thats what its for.
Most of these people get by, but they arent rich.
Beckitt is the most prosperous person there.

If you can throw down say, $100/dollars an hour per person for six hours of safe magically legal work, tax-free, and a favor in return, most of them will scramble to take it.


2)All four Ordo members here are adult women who have lived decades without getting eaten by supernatural predators, simply by being careful and observing basic precautions. When noone is specifically hunting them, they're safer than many vanilla mortals, simply because they know the risks.

The Jade Dogs had a significant improvement in expected lifespan and quality of life by hooking up with us overtly.
And because they live together, they are both a harder target than individual practitioners who live in different parts of the city, and they are significantly easier to protect.

For the humans, the calculus is different.


3) If we happen to need Helen's services at managing money, we can just hire her and give her a paycheck.
Money is its own form of magic.


4)Nothing to do with their loyalty. Everything to do with their vulnerability.

None of them are immune to getting whammied by vampires or fae or random spirits. Furthermore, people who are loyal now might not be loyal in a week, or a month, or a year. Whether magic, bribery or threats.
Nor can we afford to burn Crown questions on people who we may need those questions to help.

Thats why we havent burned a Harry question after all.

Harry's protective reputation hinges on the quality and quantity of antagonists he has murdered the fuck out of as a deterrent.
We dont have that kind of bodycount in the supernatural world
And we dont have the organization to put enough soldiers on the street to act as a deterrent.

Yet.
Yog said:
That was for something they did, not for their association with Dresden.
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They killed the Tigress while protecting Dresden.
Hence Maeve going after them, despite all precedent being that she should have taken it up with Dresden. Because she couldnt go after Dresden without tangling with Mab or Lea.

Very much a Dresden thing.
 
uju32 said:
1)Molly and Lydia can provide that firepower without being members.
All we need to do is provide our number and be their friends/advisors/consultants. Achieves the same purpose without scaring away recruits.

If the point is access to their services, just offer them money. Thats what its for.
Most of these people get by, but they arent rich.
Beckitt is the most prosperous person there.

If you can throw down say, $100/dollars an hour per person for six hours of safe magically legal work, tax-free, and a favor in return, most of them will scramble to take it.
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This is essentially all the obligations with almost none of the benefits.

@DragonParadox could you clarify what exactly does the membership involve? Are we expected to follow orders? Is this a mutual support group of (near) equals? Are all the meetings mandatory? Do we have to pay a fee each month? Just so we are all on the same page.
 
Yog said:
This is essentially all the obligations with almost none of the benefits.

@DragonParadox could you clarify what exactly does the membership involve? Are we expected to follow orders? Is this a mutual support group of (near) equals? Are all the meetings mandatory? Do we have to pay a fee each month? Just so we are all on the same page.
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That already got answered:
DragonParadox said:
What you guys heard about already, mutual defense, granting sanctuary to other members on the run, participating in communal workings for the benefit of everyone, all within reason. There is no real mechanism to compel someone to do what they don't like, if you do not contribute you can be voted out and that is it.
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Yog said:
This is essentially all the obligations with almost none of the benefits.

@DragonParadox could you clarify what exactly does the membership involve? Are we expected to follow orders? Is this a mutual support group of (near) equals? Are all the meetings mandatory? Do we have to pay a fee each month? Just so we are all on the same page.
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You are expected to help out with common workings, give sanctuary to members in need if it does not unduly endanger you or your family and maybe be on call to fight in an emergency. This is very much the order of the operation for the order, fighting is the last and most desperate option and most of them do not want to do it.

Meetings are not mandatory, but keeping in contact is so people can know where to call on you and so they can know you are safe. The internet/phone will do in a pinch, there is one woman who cannot leave her house due to extreme agoraphobia for instance and a few others who rarely do so because of other sundry fears.
 
Really if anyone has a lock on Molly's character then the are going to realize that they don't need to target the Ordo Lebes to get at her. A random person on the street will do. Trying to avoid people like that is as stupid as Spiderman avoiding Mary Jane.
 
Goldfish said:
I don't see being a member of the Order as costing us much in the way of time or resources. It's not like there are membership fees or timecards we have to punch each week.

It's a very loose organization of people that otherwise go about their regular lives the vast majority of the time, who likely only come together outside of social visits when working together on group projects like the one we just participated in.
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Make no mistake, if we join a magic organization we'll be running it within six months, if not shorter.
Our enemies will assume we're running it, and target the members accordingly.
Do we have the resources to provide a reasonable level of security for their members?

Or the authority to give them orders for their own safety?

I mean, our enemies currently include the Thule Society, the Fomor, the Denarians and the Winter Court, though hopefully we can buy down that last one if everything goes well with Mab. The loose organization is a drawback here, not a benefit, because it makes it that much harder for Molly to protect people scattered all around the Chicago metropolis.

Even the Alphas live much closer together.

And that there is the crux of the matter. The attention we'll bring to them by being a member will increase the threat to them more than our current ability to protect them from harm. Their current needs as a lowkey collective of minor talents is nohing like what they would become if they were a coven with a Celestial Exalt as a member.

My two cents.
Yog said:
This is essentially all the obligations with almost none of the benefits.

@DragonParadox could you clarify what exactly does the membership involve? Are we expected to follow orders? Is this a mutual support group of (near) equals? Are all the meetings mandatory? Do we have to pay a fee each month? Just so we are all on the same page.
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What benefits do you expect to get from the Ordo Lebes?
What mutual defence do you realistically expect from minor talents? I mean, the mutual working that just happened, Molly and Lydia provided 26 of the 31 successes required to create Bane.

There are just three possible benefits to Molly
1)Asset denial to the enemy, any enemy who might prey on the supernaturally gifted
2)Early warning/intelligence, which they'd give us anyway if they trust us, even without our being members
3)Magical socialization for Rosie and Lydia, which doesnt require Molly or Lydia to be members

We're getting involved with them more because its the right thing to do than because it improves our capabilities significantly.
And that is sufficiently achieved by being advisors/consultants/friends than members
 
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