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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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I don't think our long-term plans for the ghoulish race are important right now.
I don't think killing these eight right now makes the world noticably better than letting them flee.

I do however think that removing these obstacles from our current path without spending more than 1 Essence and without taking wounds is very useful to our current goals of saving Cindy and defeating the Nazi-Valkyrie trying to pull some shit in our city.

If these creatures actually focus on Molly, they will almost certainly cause some damage.
We can parry some attacks, but not many at once and we can't attack more than once per turn at all.
WoD mechanics heavily favor group-attacks, unless you have specific, soak-heavy builds to ignore them.
Do not think some rakes from a Ghoul's claw can't harm us.
 
Alratan said:
In the context of ExWoD, mortal specifically means not a supernatural creature of any kind, I believe.

Only mortals can become Solars, and that specifically excludes anyone with supernatural heritage (but includes sorcerers).

Minor talents, as the sorcerer equivalents, probably count as mortals as they can become solars, but scions almost certainly don't.
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This is Dresden Files, though. And in Dresden Files at the very least changelings, white court vampires before they feed for the first time, red court initiates before they feed, and a number of other "already supernatural in a way" beings are almost certainly considered mortal. It all comes to free will and restrictions on it.
Alratan said:
Making a ghoul a bakemono is unlikely to reduce their hunger. We'd also need the following charm, as it's the only one that would work on a supernatural creature:
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True (arguably), but we could deal with their hunger in a number of different ways. The most obvious being Verdant Emptiness Endowment, which is not limited to mortals at all. Ghoul's hunger is almost certainly a flaw we could remove.
 
Yog said:
This is Dresden Files, though. And in Dresden Files at the very least changelings, white court vampires before they feed for the first time, red court initiates before they feed, and a number of other "already supernatural in a way" beings are almost certainly considered mortal. It all comes to free will and restrictions on it.
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Mab considered an already-fed White Court Vampire mortal enough for the Winter Knight post.
 
Yog said:
This is Dresden Files, though. And in Dresden Files at the very least changelings, white court vampires before they feed for the first time, red court initiates before they feed, and a number of other "already supernatural in a way" beings are almost certainly considered mortal. It all comes to free will and restrictions on it.
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But what we care about is mortal by the Exaltation's definition. And Exaltations seem to have more restrictive standards than the White Council. It's not a question of free will, it's a question about having inherent supernatural abilities/nature. WoD Sorcerers don't, they're merely exploiting esoteric aspects of natural law, but the rest do. Basically, if you have a supernatural 'template', you're not a mortal.

Yog said:
True (arguably), but we could deal with their hunger in a number of different ways. The most obvious being Verdant Emptiness Endowment, which is not limited to mortals at all. Ghoul's hunger is almost certainly a flaw we could remove.
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No more a flaw than a WoD vampire's need to feed on blood, and VEE can't remove that. Inherent aspects of a creature's nature aren't Flaws.
 
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[X] Artemis1992

On a purely mechanical level I'd prefer to kill them because I think we could swing it without essence use, but giving it some more thought I don't know if Molly would jump to killing since she can see them well enough not to completely write them off.

Rightly or wrongly, her general reflex is probably mercy.
Alratan said:
Making a ghoul a bakemono is unlikely to reduce their hunger. We'd also need the following charm, as it's the only one that would work on a supernatural creature:

Spawning Pit Sanctification (••••)​
​
The Infernal consecrates a pit with the torturous and transformative powers of Hell. Once the consecration is complete, the pit writhes with demon maggots. Those she casts into the pit are faced with a choice: willingly become the Infernal's creature, or die.​
​
System: This Charm first requires the Infernal to dig a pit within a place of desolation (defined as a place where Survival rolls are at least difficulty 8, or where most of the inhabitants feel despair at the state of their lives). She can dig it by hand, or else let creatures of darkness created by Maggot Mana Plague do the labor at her behest. Then, she spends 10 Essence to fill the pit with writhing, seething maggots conjured from the Hell of Burrowing Maggots.​
​
Thereafter, anyone cast into the pit understands that they face a choice: they may either give themselves body and soul to the pit's master, or face the voracious jaws of the maggots. Those who choose the maggots suffer three levels of lethal damage per turn spent in the pit, and if slain by the maggots, their soul is consigned to the Hell of Burrowing Maggots. Those who give themselves to the Infernal… are still devoured by the maggots, which swarm into the target's flesh, consuming and excreting her transformed substance back into place with such agonizing speed and deftness that she lives through the process. When they recede and permit her to crawl from the pit, she does so as a bakemono – a sort of monster that shapeshifters know as fomori. Rules for fomori can be found on pages 428- 439 of W20. Bakemono created with this Charm inevitably suffer from a derangement that fills them with paralyzing terror at the thought of disobeying the Infernal, increasing the difficulty of all actions undertaken while betraying or opposing her by two.​
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If the Infernal casts a being into the pit that is for whatever reason incapable of becoming a bakemono (such as one of the Solar Exalted), they receive no choice: the maggots simply seek to swarm and devour.​

And they're very unlikely to randomly end up with a power not to need to eat, given that the other powers in the Hell of Burrowing Maggots charmset that depend on targets needing to eat.
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Fair enough point, but I think there's still some room here. Mutating their hunger into something more manageable, if still very unpleasant, would be a reasonably acceptable way to cure their condition.

Something to the tune of a shift from needing to eat a ridiculous amount of meat, preferably human, to needing to eat a smaller amount of harder to get or outright disgusting food. Like needing to ritually consume maggot riddled meat once a week; or being able to eat a mortal's diet but having it rot in their mouths regardless of what it is and without a mental adjustment to make it palatable.

Though to be clear, I don't think this is a practical approach even if it is possible. Forcing something like this on people is wrong, arguably more so than just killing them, and I don't see how we could convince more than a small number to cooperate.

"Fall into my maggot hell pit to be eaten alive and reborn as my diabolic servant" isn't an easy pitch to make.

Long term getting them to immigrate to our hell, where they can hunt the crazy animals without fearing permanent death over seeking difficult prey, is probably the best option.

It'd also put them in a supernaturally aware environment where they can be policed and the consequences of a relapse are less bad. Being eaten would suck, but getting better after would make it less bad.

… Assuming they don't just find serial vore fetishists or something. People can get up to crazy stuff, and effective immortality could result in interesting attitudes towards physical harm.
 
BronzeTongue said:
Fair enough point, but I think there's still some room here. Mutating their hunger into something more manageable, if still very unpleasant, would be a reasonably acceptable way to cure their condition.

Something to the tune of a shift from needing to eat a ridiculous amount of meat, preferably human, to needing to eat a smaller amount of harder to get or outright disgusting food. Like needing to ritually consume maggot riddled meat once a week; or being able to eat a mortal's diet but having it rot in their mouths regardless of what it is and without a mental adjustment to make it palatable.

Though to be clear, I don't think this is a practical approach even if it is possible. Forcing something like this on people is wrong, arguably more so than just killing them, and I don't see how we could convince more than a small number to cooperate.

"Fall into my maggot hell pit to be eaten alive and reborn as my diabolic servant" isn't an easy pitch to make.

Long term getting them to immigrate to our hell, where they can hunt the crazy animals without fearing permanent death over seeking difficult prey, is probably the best option.

It'd also put them in a supernaturally aware environment where they can be policed and the consequences of a relapse are less bad. Being eaten would suck, but getting better after would make it less bad.

… Assuming they don't just find serial vore fetishists or something. People can get up to crazy stuff, and effective immortality could result in interesting attitudes towards physical harm.
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The thing is, the Infernal has no control at all over the type of powers a bakemono gets, beyond that their aesthetic is likely to be themed around the Hell the charm used to make them is from. Beyond those thematics it's simply pot luck.

The only ability a bakemono is guaranteed to get is an increased ability to resist lethal damage compared to an ordinary mortal, and ghouls already have that, so even that's redundant.
 
Alratan said:
The thing is, the Infernal has no control at all over the type of powers a bakemono gets, beyond that their aesthetic is likely to be themed around the Hell the charm used to make them is from. Beyond those thematics it's simply pot luck.

The only ability a bakemono is guaranteed to get is an increased ability to resist lethal damage compared to an ordinary mortal, and ghouls already have that, so even that's redundant.
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True. How effective it would be depends on if it the changes are generated in a randomized or thematic way.

If it's done based on themes it'd make sense for ghouls paired with maggot demons to almost always manifest a hunger or consumption related mutation.
 
[X] Try to avoid a fight via Intimidation ( use Excellency)
-[X] As you take a step foward you look at the room. Dark, silent and with a heavy feel to the stagnant air. These creatures are not used to light and that might make enough of a difference. With a thought you let bright nuclear fire envelope your sword, uncounted burning eyes open above your head and your entire form is engulfed in a nimbus of green flames. Your next word is not the sound of a human voice, it is the dry, hot wind of deserts to be, the roar of infinite furnaces the sound that the world's end might make. "LEAVE".

Alratan said:
The thing is, the Infernal has no control at all over the type of powers a bakemono gets, beyond that their aesthetic is likely to be themed around the Hell the charm used to make them is from. Beyond those thematics it's simply pot luck.

The only ability a bakemono is guaranteed to get is an increased ability to resist lethal damage compared to an ordinary mortal, and ghouls already have that, so even that's redundant.
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If DragonParadox allows us to purchase some of the custom Charms I posted earlier, Scoured Perfection of Form allows us to grant a single bakemono a fomori power of our choice.

The Hell of Burrowing Maggots Charm - Scoured Perfection of Form (•••)
Many Infernals find bakemono useful for their strange abilities, but the final results of their creation can often be unpredictable. Sometimes, an Infernal has need for a bakemono with certain qualities that she does not have in her service, qualities that she can grant him.
System: The Infernal may spend 3 Essence to permanently grant a bakemono a new fomor power (see W20, p. 429) of the Infernal's choice. A bakemono may usually only benefit from Scoured Perfection of Form once, but in certain circumstances, such as a bakemono ceasing to be one but then becoming a bakemono again, it may be used again.
Signature Effect: Choose a single fomor power that cannot be changed. When the Infernal dons her Shintai form, all bakemono loyal to her within (Essence rating x 3) yards gain that fomor power until the end of the scene. This includes bakemono that have been granted a new fomor power by a standard activation of Scoured Perfection of Form.
 
Yog said:
Molly was a White Council tier talent, which is an inborn supernatural trait, prior to getting her exaltation. Therefore, at least some magical gifts still leave you a "mortal".
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But she hadn't developed that talent, she just had the potential, as I understand it. She wasn't at the stage where she was Soul Gazing people, I think, which is the defining trait of a wizard.

Nightdream said:
If DragonParadox allows us to purchase some of the custom Charms I posted earlier, Scoured Perfection of Form allows us to grant a single bakemono a fomori power of our choice.

The Hell of Burrowing Maggots Charm - Scoured Perfection of Form (•••)
Many Infernals find bakemono useful for their strange abilities, but the final results of their creation can often be unpredictable. Sometimes, an Infernal has need for a bakemono with certain qualities that she does not have in her service, qualities that she can grant him.
System: The Infernal may spend 3 Essence to permanently grant a bakemono a new fomor power (see W20, p. 429) of the Infernal's choice. A bakemono may usually only benefit from Scoured Perfection of Form once, but in certain circumstances, such as a bakemono ceasing to be one but then becoming a bakemono again, it may be used again.
Signature Effect: Choose a single fomor power that cannot be changed. When the Infernal dons her Shintai form, all bakemono loyal to her within (Essence rating x 3) yards gain that fomor power until the end of the scene. This includes bakemono that have been granted a new fomor power by a standard activation of Scoured Perfection of Form.
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Looking at the power list, what we'd need to do is make an equal number of feeder bakemono for the number of bakemono ghouls we have, with the feeders having this power:

Fungal Udder: The fomor's body produces a substance that can sustain fomori, Black Spiral Dancers, and other Wyrm-tainted creatures. The creature can consume toxic waste, cardboard, or some other inedible substance, converting it into a disgusting (yet edible) milk, meat, or fat its dependents can harvest. After a day, the substance degenerates into something so foul even the creatures of the Wyrm cannot derive sustenance from it.​
System: This power works like the Bone Gnawer Gift: Cooking; it can be used once per day with no Gnosis cost. Each success creates enough food to sustain one Wyrm-tainted creature for one day. The creature also has an anatomical extremity that can exude or extrude this food substitute. Whether it's milked into a container or sucked directly from the appendage depends on the nature of the mutation. Another fomor who suckles at a fungal teat gains an extra point of Strength, Dexterity, or Stamina for one scene; suckling a teat takes one round.​

That's a pretty hideous way of going about things. It would be less nasty if we make the feeders from cows, which we can do with the Sanctification pit charm, even if doing so is very cruel to the poor creatures.
 
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DragonParadox said:
Scions and Secrets
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-Elder Ankou has not raised a teenager in centuries, and it shows.
Basically Lydia is Changeling!Molly, with powers beginning to come in and insufficient knowledge not to fuck with stuff she doesnt entirely understand. Molly is going to find that uncomfortably familiar.

Calling wildlife and making the earth shake with no training or idea of what she is doing makes her very powerful indeed by changeling standards, and a delectable morsel to be plucked while her father is distracted.

-Rosemary is protection from evil spirits and harmful people
Gorse prevents unwanted ingress of fairies. Also said to guard against witches, and to help bring a project to a complete and final end. Dil is protection against witchcraft.

The common denominator here seems to be witchcraft/sorcery. Which tells us what her father was primarily worried about defending against.

-Summoning ritual?
Thats bad. Summoning fae is often done in a spectrum of languages; the Erl King ritual was in German, for example.
But Latin usually puts us in mind of demons.

Could still be Winter fae. Or Summer fae, for that matter.

-Only clue is pale gleam. That suggests either a ghost or a White Court vampire thing.

-Normally, I wouldnt bother because cell service underground is pretty terrible, but given that Clippy is in our phone optimizing its function via magic, there's a nonzero chance we might be able to call Lydia underground.
Whether its by calling her directly or connecting to wifi.

-Now this is the sort of thing that interests Molly in ghouls.
Some of them are mentally slow, but these may or may not be.
Something to talk with Bob in the future, possibly

-Eight ghouls?
That leaves us with five unaccounted for, from the vision.
Hmm.

VOTE
[X] Artemis1992

Yeah, this is the right move.
Among supernaturals as in the wild there's often a lot of posturing and threat displays, as noone wants to get in an unnecessary fight if they can avoid it. If we can avoid a fight with supernatural terror, much the better.

And Molly will default to mercy where she can.
 
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Artemis1992 said:
She had the talent, but she was far from being a real Wizard yet.
And she lost the template.
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No she didn't, not exactly anyway. Remember the ruling we got that when she tried to pull on magic her exaltation eats it? That's why she can meditate for essence recovery. It takes all day to get our essence rating in motes back, but we can still technically do it.
 
Has anyone considered that merely scaring the ghouls off might leave them able to attack Lydia?

She seemed to be moving in this general direction.
 
LightLan said:
Has anyone considered that merely scaring the ghouls off might leave them able to attack Lydia?

She seemed to be moving in this general direction.
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Depends on if they scatter as a group, how close she is, and how coherent they are.

If they're busy getting out of dodge they probably won't stop for a snack, especially if they're alone.

Her prep level is also a factor. It might be that she can't do more than we've heard her mention, in which case she's screwed, but that summoning could indicate some other abilities.

If she can do anything that makes her even look like a difficult target I'd bet they'd pass her by rather than risk injury while running away from a hostile environment. Too much risk that the bigger predator behind them smells the proverbial blood in the water somehow and stops by to snack on the weakened survivor.
 
Alratan said:
I'm not convinced that Molly will be happy to let the ghouls live to dine another day.
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Molly would not shoot coyotes on sight either.
Or feral dogs. Or polar bears.
Or trolls. Or Whampires.

She saw them eating a stray dog, after all. Which might horrify pet lovers, but is hardly a capital offense.
LightLan said:
What they are is tragic. It does not change that they literally can't live without killing humans.
I don't think we have a way to change that?
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1)Not actually true.
Ghouls have a magical compulsion to feed on human flesh if they can get it; they dont have a compulsion to kill people.
And its a compulsion, not a need; they wont die if they dont get long pork. Unlike Reds and blood.

Remember that in human society, graveyards, morgues, medical waste disposals are just three sources of human flesh.

Ghouls have worse PR than Whampires, and less societal organization.
This party underground are quite possibly clanless.
Whether they have a human killcount is unknown.

2) Mercy in Servitude is a 1 dot charm that covers this, if we went in that route.

Earth-Destroyer said:
These are Ghouls their is no reason to leave them alive. They kill people regularly. It a good day to a Ghoul, to get paid to kill people.
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This is not true.

Alratan said:
Making a ghoul a bakemono is unlikely to reduce their hunger. We'd also need the following charm, as it's the only one that would work on a supernatural creature:
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Maggot Mana Plague reduces social DC by 3 after several feedings, which makes Molly telling them "Dont do this" a lot more likely to stick.

Furthermore, by Word of GM Mercy In Servitude would work on White Court vampires in Molly's service.
That means it would probably work on ghouls as well.
Its a 1 dot charm.
 
@uju32 unfortunetly you guys cannot get a signal underground with Clippy anymore than you would normally. Hollow Mind Possession is a very powerful charm for how cheap it is, both to buy and to cast, but it is also very limited. It does two things
  1. Puts an AI into a device giving it full control of what the device could already do.
  2. Hardens the device against loose mortal magic (though Harry throwing a Hexus at it would still work )
Your phone could not work in Undertown normally because of all the rock and dirt in the way and so it cannot work now.

On the matter of ghouls

Mercy in servitude would release them from the compulsion to feed and give them much more control when faced with a meal, but again they do need to get their superpowers somewhere so much like with the White Court ghouls would retain their need to eat a lot.
 
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