Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

2)Do you realize how many great evils there are? Just look at the dinner at Bianca's place that Dresden and Michael went to.
Dresden hasnt murdered Marcone out of hand. Papa Raith is still alive, even if fettered. He sat across from Paolo Ortega and managed not to get in an immediate fight. He and Cowl basically postured at each other the first time they met, and both backed away until later. He has done business with Mavra.

Combat in the Dresdenverse is seldom on sight.
Dresden in particular tried to get information and backup before getting into serious punchups.
Marcone is hardly in the same league as this being, who is a multi-centennial ally of denarians.

And Harry, for all that he is, is not an exalted. He is not in position to correct the world's flaws before his eyes. We, at this moment, are. I will not be swayed from this here. We win nothing by letting her go, and lose a lot - if nothing else, she now knows we exist.
We may be an Infernal, but we are only several weeks old. She's over a thousand.
Yes. And we can know everything about how she fights with a glance. She, on the other hand, has no idea of what we are, and what we can do. That is going to change later, if we let her go. Right now we are in the best possible position to take her down.
 
Y'know, if Im right that the Ankou is the Class IV Wright that the NSB were talking about having in some sort of custody?
Someone has to have provided them with the lore and knowledge to capture him.

It would be really amusing if it turns out that she's the FBI consultant for the Daedalus Group, wouldnt it?
:V
I meant to mention it yesterday, but got sidetracked.

I'm pretty sure he wasn't saying the killer was a Class IV Wright, but merely answering the question like so: "It was a Class IV, Wright", given that he was talking to Agent Wright at the time. DP misses commas sometimes.
 
[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
 
Yes. And we can know everything about how she fights with a glance. She, on the other hand, has no idea of what we are, and what we can do. That is going to change later, if we let her go. Right now we are in the best possible position to take her down.
Knowing what she can do doesn't necessarily make her less dangerous, or is more capable of harming her.

You're making some serious assumptions about our flexibility, Molly's knowledge of what Gard's relationship to this woman is, and how she can respond.

If the goal is removing her for the sake of a moral crusade then the plan shouldn't be sword fight, it should be cold blooded execution done while we're 15 minutes away at minimum.

That way we have fallbacks and options if she turns out to be more than we can handle.
 
[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)

yes, this may be a pretty neat opportunity to take out one of the nazi wizard dudes, but I'm not sure what we'd do after beating her and I think getting Harry out asap is more important right now. He probably knows more of what is going on with the case Mab gave him. Especially since we can track her and go beat her up whenever we want later. Assuming she believes what Molly says, of course.
 
Marcone is hardly in the same league as this being, who is a multi-centennial ally of denarians.

And Harry, for all that he is, is not an exalted. He is not in position to correct the world's flaws before his eyes. We, at this moment, are. I will not be swayed from this here. We win nothing by letting her go, and lose a lot - if nothing else, she now knows we exist.

Yes. And we can know everything about how she fights with a glance. She, on the other hand, has no idea of what we are, and what we can do. That is going to change later, if we let her go. Right now we are in the best possible position to take her down.
1)Point of correction:
No, we dont actually know that. The Thule Society dates only as far back as the 19th century in the Dresdenverse; first mention was in the Wild West. And we dont know when this one joined and got into the C-suite.
Dont make assumptions about her tenure.

2)Harry has been doing this thing before Molly entered adolesence.
And he's managed to stay alive while doing it. Without the White God's umbrella. That points at very good life lessons worth paying attention to. This is hardly the first time that an overconfident Exalt has gotten bodied hard.

3)We are a baby Infernal. Emphasis on baby.
And you want to jump into a fight with what was a minor Norse goddess, who has access to magic, and is what would be described as an omnitactical battle hydra.

With no preptime, backup or backup plans.


What is your plan if she plays keepaway and just keeps shooting us from range?

I mean, this is the most basic tactic here is for raid bosses.
Just kite us with an AR or a handgun or magic. We are armed with a sword and shield; melee loadout.
No handgun, no AR, no ranged charms, Firearms 0.

We dont have superspeed, and even if we did, she's a rune sorceress.
Hundreds of years of combat experience and magic experience.
Wanna bet she cant whistle up tactical speed boosting? Dresden can, and he's 31.

EDIT
And thats just the most basic tactic here.

If she blinds us, either directly by getting a spell in our eyes or by putting up a cloud she can see through but we cant.
Makes the ground all sticky to impede movement. Releases a toxic gas we cant breathe. Actually poisons us.
Uses a veil to become invisible.

I am not kidding when I say you havent even begun to imagine what a skilled sorceress can do.
 
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Use her car to ram her.
This assumes that
1)Her car will be in range
2)She cant blow up the bloody thing, or knock it over. Or just tank it. Dresdren was able to flip a car on Cowl at essentially seconds notice during Dead Beat, and Cowl shrugged it off his shield it like a boss. Dresden is still 31; he's quite the magical brute by wizard standards, but he'd be barely out of apprenticeship if the War wasnt on

Its a disturbing underestimation of our opponent.
 
She probably is not a sorceress, but it's better to assume a greater threat level and overestimate unknown opponents than it is to underestimate them.
 
We deal Aggravated damage that is very big deal in this system. Further more what was the point of taking a combat build if we avoid combat at the first sign of an opponent above mook level.
 
She probably is not a sorceress, but it's better to assume a greater threat level and overestimate unknown opponents than it is to underestimate them.
Gard definitely is.
And there's no way this one would be on the board of an organization of ethically challenged magic users without being a magic user herself. She wouldnt have any interest in necromancy if she couldnt use it.
 
We deal Aggravated damage that is very big deal in this system. Further more what was the point of taking a combat build if we avoid combat at the first sign of an opponent above mook level.
Gard was canonically disemboweled by a Denarian in Small Favor, glued herself shut with superglue at the scene, and was flying a helicopter either the next day or the day after that. Her contingency spell at the train station in the same book cut down and crippled a twenty foot tall Gruff in full faerie armor, one of Summer Queen Titania's elite hitmen.

And thats just the Valk we've seen most onscreen. We have no idea how this one's talents have evolved.
Valks are scary.

Combat charms are simply a sensible precaution in the death world of the Dresden Files.
It does not oblige you to go out and pick fights.
Thats like asking why we arent currently fighting the Reds in Central America.
 
Gard definitely is.
And there's no way this one would be on the board of an organization of ethically challenged magic users without being a magic user herself. She wouldnt have any interest in necromancy if she couldnt use it.
I never got the impression that Gard was actually a spellcaster. I figured she was more along the lines of a superhuman that could use some magical effects and enchanted items. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've read the books, so my memory isn't exactly fresh. I still need to read Peace Talks and Battlegrounds, too. I keep putting it off, since I feel like I need to reread the entire series just to get caught back up.

I didn't think she glued herself back together with superglue, either. IIRC, it was some sort of magical healing compound?

Being able to enchant single-use charms and talismans through runecrafting can be its own kind of dangerous, though, even if you can't cast spells in the regular manner. I can even see that being preferable in many situations, assuming you've got a good loadout for a given encounter.

As for the reason a disgraced Valkyrie could be a leading member of an organization of necromancers despite not likely being one herself, the former duty serving as a psychopomp, along with other abilities related to dealing with the dead and spirits, is probably more than enough to qualify. Add in the better than human physical abilities, skills honed through long centuries of life, and supernatural lore that comes along with it and she would fit right in.
 
Incidentally, this definitely should go down in the "evidence Charity was right all along" column.
We deal Aggravated damage that is very big deal in this system. Further more what was the point of taking a combat build if we avoid combat at the first sign of an opponent above mook level.
We lost most of our health track fighting a group of the weakest form of werewolf who had the tactical brilliance of a particularly ornery spud.

We also don't have a well rounded combat build. A majority of our charms are in other things, and what we do have mostly makes us hit harder and more easily walk off injury. Even then our health track is the smallest it can be.

We lack answers to common and effective tactics like opening the range up and shooting things at your opponent, or AoE effects to limit our currently purely human mobility.

If she does anything other than get in our face and try to stab us to death we'll struggle, and this is someone who's had a long time to get good at these sorts of fights. "If you let it touch you bad things happen" is incredibly common among supernatural creatures, I wouldn't be surprised if she had a standard response built into her kit.

Which is why the tactic I'd recommend is to use one of the things we spent our exp on instead to wrap her car around a tree at 90 mph while suppressing the airbags.

If she just straight walks that off we have no business fighting her yet, and ideally she'd be weakened enough for us to handle if she survives.

If I'm wrong we miss an opportunity to remove her from the board, if you guys are wrong about one of several things we could find ourselves at the mercy of a nazi Valkyrie with no fallback plan.
 
[X] Plan Unfortunate Accident
-[X] Ask the crown: "What sort of person is the Entity in front of me?"
—[X] Supposing the results return "murderous nazi" or similar, proceed to assassination
-[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
—[X] Use excellency
-[X] When she'd moved on, order clippy to instruct the devil in her car to arrange for the most lethal accident it can manage that doesn't involve hurting other people and leaves her somewhere isolated.
—[X] Do this specifically with the idea that she's superhumanly tough and prepared in mind, that she'll probably survive, and may walk it off entirely. Follow her car at a 15 minute offset to confirm the results of the crash.

—[X] Request updates from the car devil if possible, and be prepared to flee for the hills if she just shrugs it off.

[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)


To be clear, I'd much prefer letting her walk on the basis that this seems like a significant risk and more than a little out of character to me, but since I keep bringing up the idea I figured I should make a template vote now that I have a minute.

I added the crown personality check because killing someone is a big step, and I don't think Molly would jump to it without something to go on. I don't just mean for this plan either, plotting to sword her to death is also pretty extreme for this point in her character development. Her primary role model literally wields a sword known as the redeemer's blade after all.

Pulling the car trick first will make the following fight easier to manage if it's in our weight class at all. It's no different than alpha striking her with that sand blast charm or something, save that it's easier to ambush with and probably does more damage.

Edit:
Actually, I think that Michael is the best argument against doing this.

When we get home and and Molly's parents ask what we've been doing all day are we supposed to proudly look them in the eye and say we killed a woman for being irredeemably evil? To a knight of the cross of all people?

That we did it because of the company she keeps, and the things we think she's done with no proof at all as to what actually happened and why she did it?

That won't fly; it validates Charity's fears and let's down Michael's highest hopes for Molly's ability to handle power.

Edit2: Molly doesn't know that she's a Valkyrie, so I needed to change question a little.
 
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I never got the impression that Gard was actually a spellcaster. I figured she was more along the lines of a superhuman that could use some magical effects and enchanted items. Admittedly, it's been a long time since I've read the books, so my memory isn't exactly fresh. I still need to read Peace Talks and
Nah. Spellcaster.
She was the one who warded Marcone's estate against magical surveillance.
I didn't think she glued herself back together with superglue, either. IIRC, it was some sort of magical healing compound?
Nope. Glue.
I quote:

At the top of the stairs I found more bloodstains, including a long smear along one wall. I followed them down to one of three bedrooms on the upper level of the house. I paused and knocked on the door.
"Come in, Dresden," said a woman's voice.

I came in.

Miss Gard lay in bed. It had been hauled over to the window so that she could see out of it. She had a heavy assault rifle of a design I didn't recognize next to her. The wooden handle of a double-headed battle-ax leaned against the bed, within reach of her hand. Gard was blond, tall, athletic, and while she wasn't precisely beautiful, she was a striking woman, with clean-cut features, icy blue eyes, and an athlete's build.

She was also a mess of blood.
She was soaked in it. So was the bed beneath her.
Her shirt was open, revealing a black athletic bra and a long wound that ran the width of her stomach, just below her belly button. Slick grey-red ropy loops protruded slightly from the wound.

My stomach twisted, and I looked away.
"Goodness," Miss Gard said, her voice quiet and rough, her face pale. "You'd think you never saw anyone disemboweled before."
"Just relieved," I said. I forced myself to face her. "First time today I've run into someone who looks worse than me."

She showed me a weary smile for a moment.

"You need a doctor," I said.
She shook her head. "No."
"Yes," I said. "You do. I'm surprised you haven't bled to death already. Think of what it would cost Monoc Securities to replace you."

"They won't need to. I'll be fine. The company has a great health care package." She picked up a small tube of what looked like heavy-duty modeling glue from the bed at her side. "This isn't the first time I've had my guts ripped out. It isn't fun, but I'll make it."

"Damn," I said, genuinely impressed. "Are they hiring?"
The question won another faint smile. "You don't really fit the employee profile."
"I am tired of being kept down by the man," I said.

Gard shook her head wearily. "How did you find us?"
"Demeter," I said.
She lifted a golden eyebrow. "I suppose that shouldn't surprise me. Though I've warned him. He's too trusting."

"Marcone? Is too trusting?" I widened my eyes at her. "Lady, that pretty much puts you in a paranoiac league of your own."

"It isn't paranoia-just practical experience. A safe house isn't safe if it isn't secret." She reached down and pressed bloodied fingers against a loop of gore, gently kneading it back into the wound. She let out a hiss of pain as she did, but she didn't let a little thing like an exposed internal organ get in the way of conversation. "You threatened her?"

"Uh. Mostly I told her I'd help Marcone."
She lifted the tube of airplane glue and smeared some of it onto either side of the wound, where she'd pushed her guts back in. She bled a little more. I noted that several inches of the wound had already been closed and sealed together.

"You gave her your word?" Gard asked.
"Uh, yeah, but-" I couldn't take it anymore. "Look, could you maybe not do that while we talk? It makes it sort of hard for me to focus on the conversation."

She pressed the edges of the wound together, letting out a breathy curse in a language I didn't know. "Did you know," she said, "that this kind of glue was originally developed as an emergency battlefield suture?"
"Did you know that you're about to find out what I had for breakfast this morning?" I countered.

"I don't know if it's true," she continued. "I saw it in a movie. With-dammit-with werewolves." She exhaled and drew her hands slowly from the wound. Another two or three inches of puckered flesh were now closed together. Gard looked awful, her face grey and lined with pain.

"Why, Dresden? Why are you looking for Marcone?"
"The short version? It's my ass if I don't."
She squinted at me. "It's personal?"

"Pretty much. I'll give you my word on it, if you like."

She shook her head. "It's not...your word that I doubt. That's...always been good." She closed her eyes against the pain and panted for several seconds. "But I need something from you."
"What?"

"The White Council," she rasped. "I want you to call upon the White Council to recover Marcone."
I blinked at her. "Uh. What?"

She grimaced and began packing another couple inches of intestine back into her abdomen. "The Accords have been breached. A challenge must be lodged. An Emissary summoned. As a Warden"-she gasped for a moment, and then fumbled the glue into place-"you have the authority to call a challenge."

Her fingers slipped, and the wound sprang open again. She went white with pain.
"Dammit, Sigrun," I said, more appalled at her pain than her condition, and moved to help her. "Get your hands out of the way." When she did, I managed to close the wound a little more, giving the sharp-smelling glue a chance to bond the flesh closed.

She made an effort to smile at me. "We...we worked well together at the beer festival. You're a professional. I respect that."
"I'll bet you say that to all the guys who glue your stomach back together."

"Call the Council," Gard said. "Lodge the challenge."
"I've got a better idea," I said. "Tell me where Marcone is, I'll go get him and bring him home, and this will all be over."
She started pushing the next bit back in, while I waited with the glue. "It isn't that simple. I don't know where he is."

I caught on. "But you do know who took him."
"Yes. Another signatory of the Accords, just as Marcone is now. I have no authority to challenge their actions. But you do. You may be able to force them into the light, bring the pressure of all the members of the Accords against them."

"Oh, sure," I said, laying out more glue. "The Council just loves it when one of their youngest members drags the entire organization into a fight that isn't their own."
"You would know, wouldn't you?" Gard rasped. "It's not as though it would be the first time."

I held the wound together, waiting on the glue. "I can't," I said quietly.
Small Favor. Chapter 12
Being able to enchant single-use charms and talismans through runecrafting can be its own kind of dangerous, though, even if you can't cast spells in the regular manner. I can even see that being preferable in many situations, assuming you've got a good loadout for a given encounter.

As for the reason a disgraced Valkyrie could be a leading member of an organization of necromancers despite not likely being one herself, the former duty serving as a psychopomp, along with other abilities related to dealing with the dead and spirits, is probably more than enough to qualify. Add in the better than human physical abilities, skills honed through long centuries of life, and supernatural lore that comes along with it and she would fit right in.
I remember Gard being responsible for the new wards around Marcone's estate that kept Bob out and mauled him when he tried to recon the estate in Death Masks.

So yes, Valkyries can do magic.
I dont know if they can cast on the fly, but if she is carrying a full set of runestones/runecards/whatever, it doesnt really matter.
If I'm wrong we miss an opportunity to remove her from the board, if you guys are wrong about one of several things we could find ourselves at the mercy of a nazi Valkyrie with no fallback plan.
Also worth considering:
1)Can Molly kill someone who isnt inhuman like a Rampire? She's 17.
2)Assuming Molly can bring herself to try killing a person that isnt a Rampire, CAN we even kill a Valkyrie outside of Halloween?
3)And will Odin or her sisters take offense if we do so?

Titania still hasnt forgiven Dresden for killing Aurora 14 years later, even though it was necessary to stop her from fucking over the planet. We know too little about the situation and conditions at hand
And potential consequences. And Exalted is ALL about Consequences.
 
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Also worth considering:
Assuming Molly can bring herself to try killing a person that isnt a Rampire, CAN we even kill a Valkyrie outside of Halloween?
And will Odin or her sisters take offense if we do so?
My assumption there is that the mantle stuff won't be a problem since Agg damage is apparently enough to actually kill lesser outsiders.


The biggest problem in my mind is that even if we win (which is a very big if) I don't think we could do it without killing her, which makes this whole thing arranging for summary execution based on Gorfel's opinion of her. Which is a hell of a departure from her existing belief system.

It's also worth noting that the feds are somehow tangled up in this, committing murder while on a day trip to exonerate Dresden of the same is a hell of a way to blow up our efforts to actually accomplish what we came out here for.
 
[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
 
[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
-[x] Have your new Cyber demon see if it can figure out where the car has been, and when she leaves, keep track of where she goes afterwards
 
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[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
-[x] Have your new Cyber demon see if it can figure out where she's been, and when she leaves, keep track of where she goes afterwards
The initial vote already called for taking a full record of where she was, and I'm pretty sure that if we can receive updates from it remotely that we should be able to send commands to it remotely as well.

Would you be willing to approval vote the "core" version to avoid splitting the bluff before violence vote?
 
The initial vote already called for taking a full record of where she was, and I'm pretty sure that if we can receive updates from it remotely that we should be able to send commands to it remotely as well.

Would you be willing to approval vote the "core" version to avoid splitting the bluff before violence vote?
'k
Didn't recall about the full record bit.

[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
 
[X] Try to bluff that you had just been passing through and are interested in cars and... the interesting people who drive them (Manipulation+Subterfuge)
 
Honestly, want to be at least Essence 3, with a full combat suite before going up against a combat specialist supernatural, as they probably have enough dots to overwhelm us in a pure sword fight, possibly even with an Excellency. And doesn't take into account spells or magic items.
 
Honestly, want to be at least Essence 3, with a full combat suite before going up against a combat specialist supernatural, as they probably have enough dots to overwhelm us in a pure sword fight, possibly even with an Excellency. And doesn't take into account spells or magic items.
That is no different then saying never take a fight ever even when you have a 100% chance of winning, it to great a risk.
 
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