Good night guys, see you tomorrow with... well let's just say the Merlin isn't having the break from all the strain of last month he had expected
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
- Location
- Canada
I would feel bad for him but I want him to be punished. We had our hands full with his slip-up with Peabody, now he gets to handle our mistakes.
(What's that you say? One Archmage isn't comparable to 4 Exalted? Shut up)
Oh... a wizard about to be executed exalted as an abyssal? That's now a risk almost always.
… I suppose we should call someone shouldn't we?
The wizards should look on the bright side; however alarmed they are the black court is almost certainly having a worse time.
I'm pretty sure that this is to the blamps as showing up with Cain on national television to announce that he's rethought this whole "vampire" business and is going to be making some changes around here would be to VtM.
On that note, this would be the second vampire court that we've toddled off into the wilderness and done this to. I imagine that's a somewhat concerning pattern for the people paying attention to Molly.
[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use
I've changed my mind on this.
Evil Bob is absolutely disgustingly awful and the world would normally be better off if we killed him. However, I don't think killing him as the first action we take under the sun with LoV is a great idea. Not that we need to avoid violence entirely, but it's a bad tone to start with.
I've changed my mind on this.
Evil Bob is absolutely disgustingly awful and the world would normally be better off if we killed him. However, I don't think killing him as the first action we take under the sun with LoV is a great idea. Not that we need to avoid violence entirely, but it's a bad tone to start with.
- Location
- The Space Between
Yay I'm back everyone! Did we decide to slowly figure out what the . . . Lamentations . . . wanted?
LMAO WHAT HAVE WE DONE!!
Too late now I guess! If there's any being that could bust an Abyssal out of service to The Neverborn it'd be an Infernal so. Uh. Yippee four new plot hooks!
Sorry !notBob but you just got your role of "potential Neverborn player messing around for the next few arcs while we focus elsewhere" to "HOOLY SHIT !NOTBOB THERE ARE 4 ABYSSALS GET OUT OF THE WAY"
LMAO WHAT HAVE WE DONE!!
Too late now I guess! If there's any being that could bust an Abyssal out of service to The Neverborn it'd be an Infernal so. Uh. Yippee four new plot hooks!
Sorry !notBob but you just got your role of "potential Neverborn player messing around for the next few arcs while we focus elsewhere" to "HOOLY SHIT !NOTBOB THERE ARE 4 ABYSSALS GET OUT OF THE WAY"
Oh good we already did it none of the exalted are in the thrall of anyone in exalted versus World of Darkness or this Quest because all the Old Masters are dead for both the infernal (Yozi) and the abyssal exalted as the abyssals were in service to the death Lords not the never born and the death lords on the hole could give less than a fuck what the neverborn thought.
- Location
- Maryland
Considering a plan involving telling Evil Bob he can either come with us willingly or we kill him, leveraging the fact that LoV is with us. Don't know if that's a good plan, though.
He's very new to this situation and still finding his feet. Some sort of implicit threat is not what anyone needs right now.
Consider the case of Tiffany/Lash. I'd contend that we got such a good outcome because we avoided doing things like throwing the fact that we'd have eaten her soul if she went evil in her face. I think things need to settle a bit without any mixed signals before we get into nuanced discussions with LoV like "why did that little monster need to die when you're willing to help me live?".
There is a reasonable argument to be made this approach; it's one I even agree with. I just don't think it's a productive question to put into his mind here and now. If he wasn't in the scene, or we'd had a few months to work with him already, then I'd still be voting for an execution.
Technically speaking we don't know that.
It's probably the case, but we just got WoG these were released straight from the hands of a Neverborn:
Moreover, that thing wasn't the shards of some recycled iteration of the undead primordials. It knew what an infernal was and regarded the Yozi as kin:
This is a huge change from base ExWoD because the premise there is that everyone from back then is gone one way or another and not actually involved with the exalteds' shenanigans anymore.
That is the reason Molly's chains are gone; the exaltation was left unattended in a gutter for so long that time broke and restarted at least once.
Given that these Abyssals were evidently directly within the tomb of a Neverborn and direclty under its control for the whole time, why would it be the same for them?
The Death Lords certainly manipulated the Neverborn, but still had to pay lip service to the things they sold their souls to. They still watched, demanded, and provided the power for almost all their nonsense. The Death Lords aren't here, but that doesn't mean the shit they left in the care of their masters went up in smoke.
There is a potential argument to be made that the chains of the Neverborn, absent their more active nominal servants, are loose enough to not make a difference compared to how cursed they already are though.
If you look at the optional great curse system it has this to say on Abyssals:
Page 300.
I'd argue that an intact Neverborn with continuous ownership of the shards is a huge difference that should have an equally significant impact on the conditions of these exalts. However, it wouldn't be that crazy to take the position that the curses they already have are sufficient to represent the situation since taken together Holden rates them as being on the same level as adding a limit track back to everyone else.
Just because it's interesting, here is what rates as an equal level of curse for Infernals in this context:
BoredMan
Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.
[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use
Not really the exalted are free end of story they have to go to free willed beings the fact that instances within an exaltation can make that untrue is not the same as you are instantly a servant when you get them.
The Yozi were bribing their Allthing of infernals explicitly drugs demons as much power as they could possibly glut themselves on because they could not force them to work for them if they wandered out to Creation they were free.
Same for the death Knights while the Resonance of the neverborn is a pain in the ass of monumental proportions it can't actually revoke the will of the exalted who Bears the Abyssal blessing. Without the death Lords being active godslayer ghosts on their shoulders the Abyssals have no one who is powerful enough to force them to work for never born ends.
They are no more Servants of the neverborn than we are of Usum.
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- Location
- Perth, Scotland
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use
Agree with the logic put forward by BronzeTongue regarding the example this sets, and I just tend to think we should avoid killing unless it proves necessary (and Evil Bob, for all that's he's literally capital-E Evil, is both blindsided and thoroughly outmatched here).
(Also, I'm tempted to throw in some sort of intimidation stunt here, but it's late and I've been under the weather, so that'll have to wait 'til tomorrow, if at all.)
Agree with the logic put forward by BronzeTongue regarding the example this sets, and I just tend to think we should avoid killing unless it proves necessary (and Evil Bob, for all that's he's literally capital-E Evil, is both blindsided and thoroughly outmatched here).
(Also, I'm tempted to throw in some sort of intimidation stunt here, but it's late and I've been under the weather, so that'll have to wait 'til tomorrow, if at all.)
- Location
- Right Where I Am
That's convincing enough that I almost wish I wasn't already voting for that so that I could switch to it.
[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use
-[X] Stress that you do not want him around, you just don't want to set a bad example to your guest - you better behave?
Is it possible to reword things so it is clear that we are only capturing him because we don't want to set a bad example, not because we want his knowledge?
-[X] Stress that you do not want him around, you just don't want to set a bad example to your guest - you better behave?
Is it possible to reword things so it is clear that we are only capturing him because we don't want to set a bad example, not because we want his knowledge?
I will admit I don't quite understand the thing with setting an example for Lamentations of the Void. It is millions and millions of years old at this point. It has seen people die for way more flagrant and stupid reasons then actively choosing to be the worst and trying to kill arbitrary numbers of people. Possibly also killed a not insignificant number themselves in the war that closed out the second age.
For some reason I have trouble believing it could take anything we do as a bad example considering it wants to walk Under the Sun despite knowing and seeing all of that.
For some reason I have trouble believing it could take anything we do as a bad example considering it wants to walk Under the Sun despite knowing and seeing all of that.
I don't think that is true considering how we likely have outsized weight of influence due to being able to convince them to come out despite that (and having the ability to allow it), but fair about it having seen worse already, and the reasoning likely being trivial to explain?
[X] Kill it, it's what Bob would want, that nothing of the part of himself he is so ashamed of could life on
They're free end of story, which is why you felt the need to argue about how specific examples of their bindings are gone?
The Neverborn are even the ones that invented the great curse in the first place, so if there's anyone who you can say have throughly hijacked the system here it's them.
I'm not saying this particular thing is definitely happening, but treating a situation where a Neverborn is still as intact as they ever get, had long term possession of the exaltations, and deliberately sent them to the mortal world as the same as the baseline of ExWoD strikes me as unreasonable.
ExWoD specifically goes out of its way to kill all these sorts of beings and banish them from the plot precisely because their presence makes a difference to these basic questions.
It's not so much setting an example for him as you might a kid, but rather the tone we strike in our relationship and what this new path he's embarking on is. A conversation on, or quiet consideration of, why precisely Evil Bob is kill on sight and he is being offered new life isn't fruitful. We could probably mitigate the situation, but we could also just avoid it.
We'd have to get so twisted that god has to add new words to the dictionary to make LoV uncomfortable if it's even possible in the first place. Starting the process of stepping away from that life by showing him a soul killing is a poor way to reinforce it.
It's not a perfect fit, but I think it has a similar vibe to if you talked someone into going to narcotics anonymous and then immediately afterwards and then popped legitimately medically necessary Vicodin in front of them.
Nothing you did is wrong and you can explain that, but it's still better to not need to explain it in the first place.
That conversation is doable, but not necessarily easy.
"He's a monster who kills innocent people in horrible ways" doesn't land very well when the guy you're talking to has objectively done worse and doesn't really regret the acts themselves.
The difference is in things like malice, opportunity, and willingness to change. Which we can talk about, but he literally just got here. Maybe let him enjoy the light and connect with Molly on a personal level a bit first.
You have to give me a second I got to pull out my infernal and Abyssal PDFs but I'll get back to you in a second.
The never-born didn't hijack any system though it was very specifically a limit track functionality that the great curse hooked into. The limit track was made to prevent the exalted from going insane from essentially memetic weaponry and in turn they would accrue limit and then when they reach their maximum they would go down one permanent willpower that could be regained. The great curse essentially allows for the complete accrual of limit without the reduction in willpower. It's also a patch that no longer exists the limit track is gone.
Which is to say they didn't hijack anything they took advantage of a one-time vulnerability that exalted second edition says was a one time vulnerability that they completely fuck up by making the abyssals because they can essentially expunge the neverborns energy altogether becoming solars that cannot be cursed again with the great curse and have the old form of limit track which means it fills up and they lose a permanent willpower rather than going insane.
All of this to say the great curse was a curse that didn't actually hijack any function of exultation but rather added a functionality on top of an existing one that no longer exists.
Fair enough, I disagree but honestly that's why we vote.
Dmol8
The Undead Unhinged Lunatic of the Web
- Location
- Belgrade,Serbia
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use
Murder is a poor solution even in situations where it is a solution. It takes more power to keep something imprisoned than to kill it.
We have the power to capture Other/Evil Bob and he is quite literally an imprint of Kemmler's mind in at least part if not the whole. It's not the knowledge he has that is important, it is the reflection of the human mind he is that matters to us here. Knowing even an approximation of how Kemmler thought in this quest will help us in cleaning up the messes left behind by the bastard.
And considering he experimented with Exaltations in this crossover that knowledge is going to be relevant.
Murder is a poor solution even in situations where it is a solution. It takes more power to keep something imprisoned than to kill it.
We have the power to capture Other/Evil Bob and he is quite literally an imprint of Kemmler's mind in at least part if not the whole. It's not the knowledge he has that is important, it is the reflection of the human mind he is that matters to us here. Knowing even an approximation of how Kemmler thought in this quest will help us in cleaning up the messes left behind by the bastard.
And considering he experimented with Exaltations in this crossover that knowledge is going to be relevant.
taovkool
Forever Gone
- Location
- The Library, Department of General Works
[X] Kill it, it's what Bob would want, that nothing of the part of himself he is so ashamed of could life on
A good argument could be made to capture Bob, but honestly, I just don't like the evil skull that much. He can hang.
A good argument could be made to capture Bob, but honestly, I just don't like the evil skull that much. He can hang.
[X] Capture Other Bob, you're sure he can be of some use