Remove ads

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Reader mode
firefrog600 said:
That's dumb wizards already legally couldn't do that and the fact there were only dozens of traitors means that most white council members already don't use magic to murder mortals. Also really dumb when you realize said predators aren't human and so can still be murdered with magic.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ok the bigger thing is that plenty of wizards in the council will refuse to sign and it's a much easier pill if only warlocks who would have been killed otherwise have to.

Also even if they don't ever break the laws wizards like the ability to make credible threats.

Edit: Did you vote for Harry not to sign? I just assume that since that vote won that there are good reasons a wizard might not want to sign understood by the thread. Why am I having to argue this?
 
Last edited:
@DragonParadox I feel like there should've been a vote to specify exactly how the Books are supposed to work.

Like this is one way they could function, as a preventative measure for everyone as opposed to just those who've violated the Laws in which they'd have exception clauses built in for those who haven't broken the Laws. This would prevent people like Peabody from operating within the Council.

BoredMan said:
This entire time I thought they would just be really big fucking books or books with infinite pages that they'd have everyone on the WC sign and that it'd function differently depending on who signed it.

Like, if they've violated the Laws already they don't get the self defense or in the defense of others exception clauses but if they haven't they get it which would help prevent warlocks like Peabody from just being amongst their ranks able to function normally since he used mind magic on people for other reasons and messing with Outsiders etc.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
fictionfan said:
Molly already told the Merlin how the book works when she proposed the idea to him. I don't understand where the miscommunication is.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes that was when the general idea and intent was established. We never went into specifics, like whether or not there'd be exceptions clauses.

I'm not the only one who thought we'd be going into more detail on this.

BronzeTongue said:
There are grey zones and then there are grey zones.

Sleep magic is directly a violation of the law, but it's so minor and benign that it doesn't get prosecuted. Raising dead animals is not against the literal text of the law, as it works like the first in that it only cares about mortals, but involves doing something that makes you good at the bad stuff so it gets you investigated.

The exact phrasing we use in the book will be very relevant to the results. We should probably be as specific as possible when writing it for that reason.

The seventh law is a particularly good example of what I mean by this. Simply banning using summoning magic on outsiders could potentially make say holding one in place with it illegal for someone legitimately trying to fight them. So instead make it illegal to do anything which benefits the Outside with magic.

Holding walkers in place? Yes. Summoning minions and thereby allowing new access to reality? No.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
BoredMan said:
Yes that was when the general idea and intent was established. We never went into specifics, like whether or not there'd be exceptions clauses.

I'm not the only one who thought we'd be going into some detail on this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes, but it was established that the book restricted action with the alerts being a backup in case of low probability hacking.
 
fictionfan said:
Ok the bigger thing is that plenty of wizards in the council will refuse to sign and it's a much easier pill if only warlocks who would have been killed otherwise have to.

Also even if they don't ever break the laws wizards like the ability to make credible threats.

Edit: Did you vote for Harry not to sign? I just assume that since that vote won that there are good reasons a wizard might not want to sign understood by the thread. Why am I having to argue this?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I honestly think the reasons for harry not signing are retarded since he won't break those unless the worlds at risk or his daughter or something. Most of which will never be because of a mortal. I didn't vote for either though I didn't care much. Also why would the council make it a choice this isn't like a pure democracy dude? The whole point is to prevent things ahead of time not for the moral option of saving those who've already done this though that's a factor for Molly.

If they don't force this on individuals then what's even the point for the council? Also refusing to sign is pretty close to traitorous behavior in all honesty I don't much care for defending wizard rights to break the laws when they feel it's the right decision.
 
Last edited:
firefrog600 said:
I honestly think the reasons for harry not signing are retarded since he won't break those unless the worlds at risk or his daughter or something. Most of which will never be because of a mortal. I didn't vote for either though I didn't care much. Also why would the council make it a choice this isn't like a pure democracy dude? The whole point is to prevent things ahead of time not for the moral option of saving those who've already done this though that's a factor for Molly.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just saying forcing all wizards to sign after passionately convincing Harry not to sign seems very inconsistent.
 
Rule 2: Don’t Be Hateful - Use of slurs
fictionfan said:
Just saying forcing all wizards to sign after passionately convincing Harry not to sign seems very inconsistent.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I still think the take of not letting harry sign is retarded in all honesty because the chat can't fathom taking away options from themselves or their friends. Constrictions can be useful and breaking the laws has bad affects at least for murdering mortals. I also think it's really really fucking stupid when we could have just gotten harry a weapon to kill mortals.

Like let's be honest the situations where he needs magic to kill another mortal are so ridiculously rare it's not going to happen in this quest. He can still defend himself with magic and any mortal that requires magic for him to kill is going to be past his weight class anyways. He can still attack other mortals as long as he doesn't think it'd kill them and he has allies that can kill mortals. What possible situation would harry be alone, need magic to kill a mortal, and think it's worth corrupting himself to do so? He also has this magical new device called a gun.
 
To be clear I voted for to harry to sign, but I was massively outvoted despite my arguments and I would really wish that one of the people who disagreed with me would make this argument since it must make more sense to them. But now that vote has happened we are sort of stuck.
 
Last edited:
Like seriously can anyone give me an actual scenario where harry might need to murder a human with magic when he has a gun? Magic for most mortals is overkill and he can still defend himself with it. Someone like his grandfather would absolutely dumpster him in a fight 9 times out of ten. Can't kill nicodemus anyways with the noose around his neck with magic. Harry would need to be alone for this to matter and that's fairly unlikely and on the people who it might matter against magics probably not gonna do jack shit anyways. For transformations harry can do exactly jack shit in transformation magic and for mind magics what possible scenario would he with his Jack shit skills in that area need mind magics against a mortal for? Fairly sure harry would rather kill himself before he mind controlled a human he could actually manage it on. The only one I can maybe see harry wanting is time magics and good fucking luck letting the qm give us those or harry being able to use them.
 
I mean harry has a far higher chance of killing an experienced wizard with a sniper than with magic if we are being honest.
 
fictionfan said:
Yes, but it was established that the book restricted action with the alerts being a backup in case of low probability hacking.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@DragonParadox Sorry to tag you twice over the exact same matter but if we wanted to go into further detail regarding the writing in the Books and their functions was THAT the time, when Molly was thinking of bringing it up to the WC, to say something instead of later on when the books actually get crafted and thus it's already set in stone? I thought when crafting the Books that we'd go into detail regarding the exact writing.


fictionfan said:
To be clear I voted for to harry to sign, but I was massively outvoted despite my arguments and I would really wish that one of the people who disagreed with me would make this agreement since it must make more sense to them. But now that vote has happened we are sort of stuck.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Make what agreement? We don't have control over the White Council. We can't force them to sign anything or use them in any specific way.

firefrog600 said:
Snip
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Did you forget the conversation we had earlier when you voiced these exact statements?
 
Last edited:
Also @BoredMan specifically why am I having to argue this point with you? You were one of the people who voted for Harry to not sign the book so you must be against universal signing in the white council.
 
Last edited:
BoredMan said:
@DragonParadox Sorry to tag you twice over the exact same matter but if we wanted to go into further detail regarding the writing in the Books and their functions was THAT the time to say something instead of later on when books actually get crafted and thus it's already set in stone? I thought when crafting the Books that we'd go into detail regarding the exact writing of said Books.



Make what agreement? We don't have control over the White Council. We can't force them to sign anything or use them in any specific way.


Did you forget the conversation we had earlier when you voiced these exact statements?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yes and I still think it's ridiculous I just don't care all too much to argue more. Still haven't really gotten a scenario where harry would ever need these things. In fact most white council wizards would be fucking horrible at transformation and mind magics on account of no fucking practice.
 
BoredMan said:
I don't know what you mean by this.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You fixated on the word "agreement" which was meant to be "argument". And I am referring to my frustration in having to argue for why all wizards shouldn't sign the book when I voted for Harry to sign the book and you voted for him not to sign. So the argument for why wizards should not sign the book should come more easily to you who actually agrees with them.
 
Last edited:
fictionfan said:
Also @BoredMan specifically why am I having to argue this point with you? You were one of the people who voted for Harry to not sign the book so you must be against universal signing in the white council.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
fictionfan said:
You fixated on the word "agreement" which was meant to be "argument". And I am referring to my frustration in having to argue for why all wizards shouldn't sign the book when I voted for Harry to sign the book and you voted for him not to sign. So the argument for why wizards should not sign the book should come more easily to you who actually agrees with them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
??? The White Council isn't in our party and aren't the Warden of Demonreach. Different context. Part of the idea is to avoid other people like Peabody freely violating the Laws amongst the Council's ranks. If Harry somehow starts going warlock we'd notice and can do something about it. The White Council had multiple Warlocks amongst them for years and didn't notice. I don't know why you think the desired approach to one person in our party would be the same as an organization with 50k or whatever with traitor Warlock issues.

firefrog600 said:
Yes and I still think it's ridiculous I just don't care all too much to argue more.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It was a rhetorical question? Nevermind.
 
Last edited:
BoredMan said:
??? The White Council isn't in our party. Part of the idea is to avoid other people like Peabody freely violating the Laws amongst the Council's ranks. If Harry somehow starts going warlock we'd notice and can do something about it. The White Council had multiple Warlocks amongst them for years and didn't notice. I don't know why you think the desired approach to one person in our party would be the same as an organization with 50k or whatever with traitor Warlock issues.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Umm. You do in fact realize that Harry is in fact a member of the White Council? Also people in universe can't see a party member sign floating above people's heads.
 
Last edited:
firefrog600 said:
I still think the take of not letting harry sign is retarded in all honesty because the chat can't fathom taking away options from themselves or their friends. Constrictions can be useful and breaking the laws has bad affects at least for murdering mortals. I also think it's really really fucking stupid when we could have just gotten harry a weapon to kill mortals.

Like let's be honest the situations where he needs magic to kill another mortal are so ridiculously rare it's not going to happen in this quest. He can still defend himself with magic and any mortal that requires magic for him to kill is going to be past his weight class anyways. He can still attack other mortals as long as he doesn't think it'd kill them and he has allies that can kill mortals. What possible situation would harry be alone, need magic to kill a mortal, and think it's worth corrupting himself to do so? He also has this magical new device called a gun.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
fictionfan said:
Umm. You do in fact realize that Harry is in fact a member of the White Council?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Because the books make you incapable of using magic against Mortals it inherently makes you worse at the managing the main minions of three of the four main courts of vampires managing the main Servants of the fomori and makes you extremely vulnerable to Danger All Around.

Humans are categorically the most dangerous creature for a wizard to deal with simply because of the laws being completely incapable of dealing with them because of the books means no more Ambush parties of Reds or summoned creatures because ambushing them with Mortals is magnitudes more effective now.

it is infinitely better for a wizard to be able to break the laws and then sign the book later then need to try to maneuver around tens of people with shotguns while trying to stick to purely non-lethal force that they know entirely will be non-lethal despite the fact that humans can die completely on accident from completely innocuous incidents.

Inherently Harry was persuaded not to sign the book one because it's kind of a backsliding of his character development as someone who very obviously skirts the laws from time to time with his essentially necromancy that he performs on his T-Rex and his main enemies at the moment and in general are mortal people he's gotten good with the white vampires of Chicago being essentially the brother of the prince and possibly romantic interests of the queen same deal with the fairies.

The red court on the other hand very explicitly uses mortal forces and is not shy about that in a variety of instances it is better for Harry to break the law incinerating a mercenary company than it is for him to die trying to non-lethily take down a mercenary company. He has nothing as far as combat magic that is actually capable of dealing with massed Mortals that isn't immediately fatal.

The book being used as a replacement or a supplement to the Doom of Damocles allows for the reformation and recapture of first time offenders rather than warlocks endlessly spiraling into essentially comically evil wizards they can have an incident where they must defend themselves without dooming themselves to be essentially Darth Vader.

At least that's my perspective on it and why I voted for Harry not to sign the book they were both pragmatic and character based reasons why he shouldn't have.
 
@Degorium Yes and I are in agreement then. The book is a supplement for the Doom of Damocles. It doesn't need to be signed by most wizards.
 
Last edited:
I know this was discussed before, the purpose of the books is not to bind the entire white council to never break the laws, that would rather like a country preemptively disarming itself of nuclear weapons to avoid a MAD scenario, their purpose is to offer an option for dealing with warlocks that isn't either a member in good standing putting their life on the line or just executing them outright.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top