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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BoredMan said:
Just because he doesn't have something now doesn't mean having the option or ability won't be relevant later. You aren't writing the story.

For example when Dresden saw fit to use the Word of Kemmler to revive Sue the T-Rex with necromancy to fight necromancers. If he had singed the book that wouldn't have been an option.
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yeah well harry never had anyone to rely on in canon 99% of the time it came down to him due to narrative. Now thats basically never going to happen and with mechanics harry won't be able to do impressive law breaking shit because he has no dots in it.
 
[X] No, try to argue him around to Tiffany's side. Now is not the time to voluntarily disarm himself even of the most distasteful weapons
-[X] "You've lived with and fought through the Doom of Damocles all of your life, and shown that it is possible to overcome the influence of Lawbreaking through choice alone. You stand as an example for others. If the White Council wishes to avoid having this book become a crutch that it is reliant upon, then it will need a beacon such as yourself, to shine the light of self-determination."
 
firefrog600 said:
yeah well harry never had anyone to rely on in canon 99% of the time it came down to him due to narrative. Now thats basically never going to happen and with mechanics harry won't be able to do impressive law breaking shit because he has no dots in it.
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The point is that closing out options forever while running with the protag into greater and greater conflict isn't smart. You have no idea what's down the line so you shouldn't act as if you do. Dots and abilities can of course be gained later situation depending.


For example, Dresden did not have access to essence in the books and we didn't know that he was going to have it until after the Labyrinth. He didn't have it before but can now mechanically utilize it. It is a factor that couldn't have been predicted but is in play now.
 
BoredMan said:
The point is that closing out options forever while running with the protag into greater and greater conflict isn't smart. You have no idea what's down the line so you shouldn't act as if you do. Dots and abilities can of course be gained later situation depending.


For example, Dresden did not have access to essence in the books and we didn't know that he was going to have it until after the Labyrinth. He didn't have it before but can now mechanically utilize it. It is a factor that couldn't have been predicted but is in play now.
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if any human pulls out archmage shit on the council other than maybe 5 people in the world I'm calling horseshit. Harry can't deal with archmages anyways and for non humans well their non humans. He can't even really do any of the other shit either. For necromancy we'd get an actual fucking necromancer. For time shit harrys never ever getting that stuff in this quest ever. We can mind fuck people not that we would harry won't. For outsiders just no just fucking no.

Also there's political capital for being the first and harry not getting fucked over so much if he does it by the council.

Also dots cost fucking exp which harry barely makes any of as a mortal fuck our exalt and nephilim are fucking drip fed measly exp bits if we're being honest. If he gets exp its for stuff hes good at.
 
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firefrog600 said:
if any human pulls out archmage shit on the council other than maybe 5 people in the world I'm calling horseshit. Harry can't deal with archmages anyways and for non humans well their non humans. He can't even really do any of the other shit either. For necromancy we'd get an actual fucking necromancer. For time shit harrys never ever getting that stuff in this quest ever. We can mind fuck people not that we would harry won't. For outsiders just no just fucking no.

Also there's political capital for being the first and harry not getting fucked over so much if he does it by the council.
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1) There is more than one Law.

2) You aren't writing the story.

Permanently locking out entire skill trees with the logic of "he's never ever going to need or unlock those abilities down the line anyway so it's fine to get rid of the possibility" assumes that you have some level of future sight. Saying "Harry is never ever getting that in quest ever" reads as arrogant. Did you think he was getting teachable essence unlocked before he did?

3) I at least find the fact that Harry is a member of our party and the Warden of Demonreach along with someone who is dating a prime target of the Denarians to be immensely more important than the fact that he's on the White Council. He's going to be teaching them essence. His reputation and political capital is going to boom regardless of anything else.
 
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No just no, with Molly new creations and stuff. The laws might not even exist in another decade.

[X] No, try to argue him around to Tiffany's side. Now is not the time to voluntarily disarm himself even of the most distasteful weapons
-[X] "You've lived with and fought through the Doom of Damocles all of your life, and shown that it is possible to overcome the influence of Lawbreaking through choice alone. You stand as an example for others. If the White Council wishes to avoid having this book become a crutch that it is reliant upon, then it will need a beacon such as yourself, to shine the light of self-determination."
 
[X] Yes, if that makes him more at ease, no matter the reason you are happy to help

I feel that the social capital that this will gain Desden in the WC is worth the limitations.
 
fictionfan said:
I feel that the social capital that this will gain Desden in the WC is worth the limitations.
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Seriously though... He's a known good friend of the Queen of the Five Fold Courts, an extremely relevant figure to the White Council after recent events, is going to be teaching them essence and the fact that he's the Warden of Demonreach is going to get out. Political and social capital isn't going to be an object for him going forward.
 
fictionfan said:
I feel that the social capital that this will gain Desden in the WC is worth the limitations.
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What social capital. He is still the warden commander of the United States he's still the warden of demon reach he is still The Apprentice of a senior counsel member what possible social capital is there be gained to being on this book. He's already a success case as far as Doom of Damocles goes so there's no further gain only hardliners like Morgan hated him.

He's also now completely indispensable because he can teach Essences what further Social Capital can be gained in exchange for this limitation that would completely forbid him from doing stuff like Sue. He's going to die the first time normal people Ambush him because he can't use any magic that is potentially fatal on them and he has a focus on evocation particularly fire.

[X] No, try to argue him around to Tiffany's side. Now is not the time to voluntarily disarm himself even of the most distasteful weapons
-[X] "You've lived with and fought through the Doom of Damocles all of your life, and shown that it is possible to overcome the influence of Lawbreaking through choice alone. You stand as an example for others. If the White Council wishes to avoid having this book become a crutch that it is reliant upon, then it will need a beacon such as yourself, to shine the light of self-determination."
 
BoredMan said:
Seriously though... He's a known good friend of the Queen of the Five Fold Courts, an extremely relevant figure to the White Council after recent events, is going to be teaching them essence and the fact that he's the Warden of Demonreach is going to get out. Political and social capital isn't going to be an object for him.
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That just makes him powerful and skilled. This makes him feel like he is on their side. There is a big difference.
 
fictionfan said:
That just makes him powerful and skilled. This makes him feel like he is on their side. There is a big difference.
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Teaching them essence achieves the same effect. I don't think you grox how big of a deal that is.

[X] No, try to argue him around to Tiffany's side. Now is not the time to voluntarily disarm himself even of the most distasteful weapons
-[X] "You've lived with and fought through the Doom of Damocles all of your life, and shown that it is possible to overcome the influence of Lawbreaking through choice alone. You stand as an example for others. If the White Council wishes to avoid having this book become a crutch that it is reliant upon, then it will need a beacon such as yourself, to shine the light of self-determination."
-[X] Empathy Excellency
 
BoredMan said:
1) There is more than one Law.

2) You aren't writing the story.

Permanently locking out entire skill trees with the logic of "he's never ever going to need or unlock those abilities down the line anyway so it's fine to get rid of the possibility" assumes that you have some level of future sight. Saying "Harry is never ever getting that in quest ever" reads as arrogant. Did you think he was getting teachable essence unlocked before he did?

3) I at least find the fact that Harry is a member of our party and the Warden of Demonreach along with someone who is dating a prime target of the Denarians to be immensely more important than the fact that he's on the White Council. He's going to be teaching them essence. His reputation and political capital is going to boom regardless of anything else.
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Yes I did think he'd get essence because we have actual charms that allow us to teach people essence in reach.
 
firefrog600 said:
Yes I did think he'd get essence because we have actual charms that allow us to teach people essence in reach.
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..So you did not think that he'd be unlocking teachable essence and entirely on his own at that. You thought if he ever gained the ability to use it (and I doubt it would've been teachable if gained through a charm) it'd be because we bought and used a charm on him. Which is my point. I don't know why your speaking as if you have precognition or are writing the story.
 
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BoredMan said:
Just because he doesn't have something now doesn't mean having the option or ability won't be relevant later. You aren't writing the story.

For example when Dresden saw fit to use the Word of Kemmler to revive Sue the T-Rex with necromancy to fight necromancers. If he had singed the book that wouldn't have been an option.
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I agree with you, but technically speaking that isn't what the law says. There are grey zones and then there are grey zones.

Sleep magic is directly a violation of the law, but it's so minor and benign that it doesn't get prosecuted. Raising dead animals is not against the literal text of the law, as it works like the first in that it only cares about mortals, but involves doing something that makes you good at the bad stuff so it gets you investigated.

The exact phrasing we use in the book will be very relevant to the results. We should probably be as specific as possible when writing it for that reason.

The seventh law is a particularly good example of what I mean by this. Simply banning using summoning magic on outsiders could potentially make say holding one in place with it illegal for someone legitimately trying to fight them. So instead make it illegal to do anything which benefits the Outside with magic.

Holding walkers in place? Yes. Summoning minions and thereby allowing new access to reality? No.
 
[X] Maybe he should talk to Ebeneezer first? Blackstuff exists and is used for a reason, and you know Harry is worth the trust
-[X] If he's still resolved afterwards, then yes, if that makes him more at ease, no matter the reason you are happy to help
 
[X] No, try to argue him around to Tiffany's side. Now is not the time to voluntarily disarm himself even of the most distasteful weapons
-[X] "You've lived with and fought through the Doom of Damocles all of your life, and shown that it is possible to overcome the influence of Lawbreaking through choice alone. You stand as an example for others. If the White Council wishes to avoid having this book become a crutch that it is reliant upon, then it will need a beacon such as yourself, to shine the light of self-determination."

[X] Maybe he should talk to Ebeneezer first? Blackstuff exists and is used for a reason, and you know Harry is worth the trust
-[X] If he's still resolved afterwards, then yes, if that makes him more at ease, no matter the reason you are happy to help
 
I don't think it's a good idea for Harry to make such a far-reaching decision about something like this. Who knows, someday he might need to break a Law to avert a terrible disaster, even if that means personal consequences for himself. Removing that ability entirely is shortsighted, IMO.
 
Isn't this going to require 7 books rather than just 1? At least that was the comment I saw for @DragonParadox as he was approving the idea.

Harry obviously isn't going to sign all of them.
 
DragonParadox said:
In the end yes, but right now you are focused on the First Law since it is the easiest to break accidentally, then the fourth and the fifth.
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Well at least Harry will still be able to do sleep spells then so long as he doesn't try and cast them at someone operating heavy machinery.

Actually would signing the book affect tech bane? If say Harry enters a hospital full the life saving electronic equipment?
 
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BoredMan said:
The guy raised by someone scared shitless that his son was going to get executed for breaking the Laws and who we know from canon feels more strongly about the Laws than a lot of wizards isn't going to sign all of the Books? Why do you think that?
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Because Harry hasn't never really been tempted towards mind control and he doesn't seem to have a talent for it either.
 
fictionfan said:
Because Harry hasn't never really been tempted towards mind control and he doesn't seem to have a talent for it either.
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This is his established characterization. Please read.

DragonParadox said:
I'm not sure I'd call Harry's Black and White vision of the world 'insane'. Consider he was a kid when DuMorne picked him up proceeding to be subtle abusive to him for most of his teenage years. He did not have a solid grounding in any kind of morality, much less a morality of magic right up until he meets the thoroughly inhuman Leanansidhe who persuades him to commit murder. He thinks he killed Elaine, discovers that he has been practicing Evil Magic (TM) and that one more instance of it will kill him. The person imprinting that on him is a centuries old wizard with an iron will, vast skills at magic... who is also terrified that his grandson is going to get killed for being a warlock. Harry thus gets the most puritanical for lack of a better word version of a White Council Education imaginable.

At the start of the series this version of morality stands in start opposition to the authority figure Harry first attached himself to and for whom like most abused kids he must have made excuses and to his Godmother whose later actions got him under the Doom by encouraging him to fight the bastard.

In an odd sort of way the journey of Harry Dresden mirrors that of someone with a strict religious upbringing being let loose in the outside world, complete with finding out the mentor he tried to emulate was not the paragon he thought they were.
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