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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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[X] Agree, it's frustrating to limit the help you can give like this, but it's to get advice on the politics of the Council that you went to them to begin with

Let's not push any more than they would be comfortable with right now. The White Council is still at war with the Red Court, even if there are no longer any spies to hinder them.
 
Azais said:
I'm asking because I've always thought that the idiot pigeons were an excessive solution and the "Local Exalted does impressive things just for the sake of it been empressive and doesn't think about the later consequences" energy spike.
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It's basically the wizard and shotguns cartoon manifest.
 
Yog said:
We have been over this. I remain wholly unconvinced, especially with the god now acting as the portal's guardian. 1 AP withdraws 2 bonus AP should be more than good enough for thr next month.
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Yeah, and I still call bullshit.

These are huge projects and significant vulnerabilities. The price of that action was that we'd have to do things about it and not proceed with our agenda.

To put it another way, we're placing whatever we invest in defense against everything everyone else puts into breaking it given the luxury of picking their moment. We have a lot of leverage, but not 1-2 AP vs the world levels of leverage.

More than that, there are follow on issues like how we're on a war front now. A big defense station is a start, but we should be pressing for space before people have a chance to react and crowd us.

More generally, these mega arcs are a chronic complaint of the thread. If we stop stapling together major efforts then the arcs will turn over faster and we can get more things done in bite sized pieces. Following our agenda like essentially nothing important happened is just compounding this problem.


Yog said:
The pigeons are essentially an outstanding debt. They are the stuff we can deploy the quickest
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The debt is to bring them back, we don't necessarily need to start on the other part.

More directly; they're only the fastest if you completely ignore the context around deploying them and how delicate a problem it is.

I want to emphasize again that you could be absolutely 100% objectively correct on how great the birds are. They could be exactly the solution to everyone's problems and function flawlessly in the field. There could be terabytes of hard data and detailed models to back it up from sources the council would willingly use.

You could have all of that and it would not matter because the factual truth isn't the point.

People aren't going to give up lifetimes of habit, bias, and deeply held beliefs on a dime for almost any reason - least of all the truth. Being right matters, but that's a prerequisite to the battle and not a guarantee of victory. If you push too hard against the grain people will shut down, actively hindering our progress as they fight it.

Each of these battles can be fought, but trying them all at once is doomed to fail. Not out of any flaw in our abilities, but because we have to work at the pace of society and the people who make it up.
 
Azais said:
@Yog, can you clear my on the subject of pigeons? Would they allow impunity for breaking laws in all directions? Because I'm honestly thinking about this right now and I don't want thousands of people being able to do whatever they want to others bodies/minds/souls etc.

How are we going to stop this from happening, since the pigeons should just avoid the metaphysical consequences of doing this and not prohibit them? Or are you going to say than that this isn't a problem.

I'm asking because I've always thought that the idiot pigeons were an excessive solution and the "Local Exalted does impressive things just for the sake of it been empressive and doesn't think about the later consequences" energy spike.
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This is a pretty good point. Although without the pigeons they can still do that.. but if they aren't going insane in the magic sense due to pigeon use they can better stay under the radar as well which would allow budding warlocks more discretion in their activities.


IIRC when the pigeons were originally presented for this that the idea was to combine them with the Books of Laws, which would be made to allow those who sign to break the Laws in self defense, then the pigeons would cover them in such cases.

I don't think that's what Yog is saying though.
 
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BoredMan said:
IIRC when the pigeons were originally presented for this that the idea was to combine them with the Books of Laws, which would be made to allow those who sign to break the Laws in self defense, then the pigeons would cover them in such cases.

I don't think that's what Yog is saying though.
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Yes, that's my problem, the two of them together complement each other, but as was said, Kammeler's reputation is still very horrible for the leadership to let something that was his loose like that and even worse in the minds of young and vulnerable wizards, whether or not it is an objectively better solution.

And we have to accept the current social, emotional and political realities and not just assume that everyone is logical and rational.
 
I expect it would work wonders on the various issues a Wan Kuei has. Their vulnerability to sunlight, for example, is a mortal's curse. Their inability to generate their own Yin and Yang Chi, only Demon Chi, is a Curse from God, etc.
 
Alratan said:
I expect it would work wonders on the various issues a Wan Kuei has. Their vulnerability to sunlight, for example, is a mortal's curse. Their inability to generate their own Yin and Yang Chi, only Demon Chi, is a Curse from God, etc.
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Yes, and as word spreads it will further cement the possibility of Molly having a serious chance of becoming the Demon Emperor of the Sixth Age for both the Wan Kuei and the Yama Kings lol.

They will treat us seriously as a rival and not just another enemy and we will definitely have several Wan Kuei coming to swear loyalty to get rid of their curses, with several Elders thinking that we did all this on purpose.
 
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[X] Agree, it's frustrating to limit the help you can give like this, but it's to get advice on the politics of the Council that you went to them to begin with

I'm not sure our current course with the birds has a good risk/reward level. At absolute best they will stop unaffiliated talents from succumbing to black magic corruption. Which while helpful doesn't stop young talents from jumping down the slippery slope all their own, and may even make Warlocks more dangerous since they don't have to deal with the corruption.3And with the Council aware of their relation to Kremmler, deploying them in this capacity is going to cause some form of blowback.

I just don't see the current benefits as worth what it costs us.
 
[X] Agree, it's frustrating to limit the help you can give like this, but it's to get advice on the politics of the Council that you went to them to begin with

This only applies to advertising to the white council. Plenty of other places we can use it. Really want to give Steven Hawkins a handshake.

Also how many Raiths would swear themselves to us to not be burned by true love?
 
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[X] Agree, it's frustrating to limit the help you can give like this, but it's to get advice on the politics of the Council that you went to them to begin with


Alratan said:
I expect it would work wonders on the various issues a Wan Kuei has. Their vulnerability to sunlight, for example, is a mortal's curse. Their inability to generate their own Yin and Yang Chi, only Demon Chi, is a Curse from God, etc.
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More immediately than recruiting existing cursed people, we also have the option of making really broken bakemono builds paid for by being so cursed they can't function without FSB.

Doing that to people would be bad even though it wouldn't hurt them, but sufficiently intelligent animals are an option.

The FCF has enormous alien dinosaurs with natural iron armor plating. Who's up for turning one into Godzilla?
 
[X] Agree, it's frustrating to limit the help you can give like this, but it's to get advice on the politics of the Council that you went to them to begin with
 
[X] Agree, it's frustrating to limit the help you can give like this, but it's to get advice on the politics of the Council that you went to them to begin with.

I like the birds, I really do, but I think we would be better off doing something like building a new god and resurrecting the species than binding them to the massive numbers of people the minor talents stand as at this point?
 
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DragonParadox said:
LG yes, it's a curse, fae no, it is fundamentally part of their nature.
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Really? False Springs Beckon can't help with inherent parts of their nature?

Isn't that what a susceptibility to frenzy, or a vampire clan's bane, is? A weakness that is a part of their nature?

Quoted:
The Infernal needs merely extend a hand for her target to understand that she offers relief from some ongoing source of misery. The Infernal may deliberately choose the sort of relief she offers, or may simply offer relief from whatever most torments the target. Examples of valid torments include the pain (and associated wound penalties) of injuries or chronic health conditions; a vampire's Clan weakness; a super-
natural being's susceptibility to frenzy; a derangement of the mind; the drawbacks of a demon's Torment; an ongoing curse laid by a magician; or anything else the Storyteller feels is in line with the above examples.
If the target accepts the Infernal's offer, she may sanctify the pact by spending 1 Essence. The target immediately ceases to suffer from the relevant torment. This reprieve lasts until for a number of weeks equal to the Infernal's Essence rating, or until the target refuses to do anything the Infernal tells him to do, whichever comes first. In no case does this Charm actually fix the problem – the target is still wounded, cursed, or de- ranged – it merely alleviates the symptoms for a while.


I mean, wound penalties? Demonic drawbacks? That sounds like some fae weaknesses should apply. I suppose maybe not the lying, if it's not a 'source of torment,' but what about the iron? That's on the level of preventing Justine from burning Thomas.
 
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Adhoc vote count started by Anaja on Nov 5, 2024 at 11:45 PM, finished with 51 posts and 12 votes.
  • [X] Agree, it's frustrating to limit the help you can give like this, but it's to get advice on the politics of the Council that you went to them to begin with
    [X] Plan To Each Their Own
    -[X] Thank them both for their sage advice and honest opinion
    -[X] Agree not to use False Springs Beckons on council affiliates
    -[X] Offer a compromise - The Books and the Tools of Healing for those with the full wizard's gift, and the birds for minor talents, for those the council cannot reach due to sheer numbers, who are most likely to spurn the absolute certainty of the Books based on their perceived association with oppression, and who the council still has to punish if they break the laws.
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Azais said:
@Yog, can you clear my on the subject of pigeons? Would they allow impunity for breaking laws in all directions? Because I'm honestly thinking about this right now and I don't want thousands of people being able to do whatever they want to others bodies/minds/souls etc.

How are we going to stop this from happening, since the pigeons should just avoid the metaphysical consequences of doing this and not prohibit them? Or are you going to say than that this isn't a problem.

I'm asking because I've always thought that the idiot pigeons were an excessive solution and the "Local Exalted does impressive things just for the sake of it been empressive and doesn't think about the later consequences" energy spike.
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How do you define impunity? Right now, there's nothing mechanical stopping someone, either a full wizard or a minor talent, from breaking the Laws. Moreover, as they break the Law again and again, it becomes easier for them, as their skill increases, and as mental corruption progresses. Mental corruption from breaking the Laws doesn't make you stupid, as I understand it, it makes you more willing to break the Laws, makes it more desirable to do so. Makes you more insane.

In this sense, pigeons would actually make it harder to break the Laws, as they would prevent mental corruption. And murder is still murder and would need to be prosecuted. You'll just be removing "and murdering someone turns you incurably insane" factor from "murder with magic" cases.
BronzeTongue said:
Yeah, and I still call bullshit.

These are huge projects and significant vulnerabilities. The price of that action was that we'd have to do things about it and not proceed with our agenda.

To put it another way, we're placing whatever we invest in defense against everything everyone else puts into breaking it given the luxury of picking their moment. We have a lot of leverage, but not 1-2 AP vs the world levels of leverage.

More than that, there are follow on issues like how we're on a war front now. A big defense station is a start, but we should be pressing for space before people have a chance to react and crowd us.

More generally, these mega arcs are a chronic complaint of the thread. If we stop stapling together major efforts then the arcs will turn over faster and we can get more things done in bite sized pieces. Following our agenda like essentially nothing important happened is just compounding this problem.
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The "world" is not against us. Certain parties are against us, and they cannot afford to wholly commit to fighting only us, and you are way over reacting. The numbers just don't work out for how dangerous you are presenting the portal as.
 
Yog said:
You'll just be removing "and murdering someone turns you incurably insane" factor from "murder with magic" cases.
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A factor that definitely makes the murderers more murder-y… but also one that makes them easier to catch, at least sometimes. I'm not sure that's an easy sell.

The book at least has monitoring capabilities, so the White Council would get to mini-1984 it up.
 
boo600 said:
A factor that definitely makes the murderers more murder-y… but also one that makes them easier to catch, at least sometimes. I'm not sure that's an easy sell.

The book at least has monitoring capabilities, so the White Council would get to mini-1984 it up.
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For those that set out to intentionally break the Laws , yes, this might be an issue, but only a slight issue, I feel. They already were going to be repeat offenders and would-be cult makers and next Kemmler wannabees. For most, as I understand it, Lawbreaking is either done unintentionally / in ignorance (like Molly), out of desperation (like Harry), or due to a slippery slope. The whole thing is intended for them.

There always were going to be villains and self-made monsters. But we can reduce the number of those that fall.

And White Council lacks the capability to monitor all the minor talents. They'll break themselves trying to force everyone to sign the books.
 
I think it's important to note that if we implement something outside of the White Council's work... We're breaking their monopoly. And they might not like it very much. Especially if we get wizards instead of sorcerers. But honestly, it's time for competition.
 
What irks me most, I think, is the assumption of the rejection of the idea solely based on its association with Kemmler. Despite the birds being Kemmler's victims and such a use of them being a complete rejection of Kemmler's tainted legacy, a post-mortem slap in his face. I understand why it would happen. I also understand that this is likely a divisive generational issue in the council. The ruling elite have experienced Kemmler's horrors. The younger generation, those below 70, haven't. And it's those that are now the bulk of WC, its arms stretched across the world.

Mark my words, this divide is going to come up again, and bite them.
 
Yog said:
Despite the birds being Kemmler's victims and such a use of them being a complete rejection of Kemmler's tainted legacy, a post-mortem slap in his face. I understand why it would happen. I also understand that this is likely a divisive generational issue in the council. The ruling elite have experienced Kemmler's horrors. The younger generation, those below 70, haven't. And it's those that are now the bulk of WC, its arms stretched across the world.
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Yeah most definitely most of it's fighting arm are Carlos's age and a bit older despite having multi hundred year old Commanders and a immediate officer above Carlos who is 121 years old.

None of them are going to enjoy being shot at and not being able to kill the people shooting at them none of them are going to enjoy getting taken by Red drug slaves and then turned into half Reds against their will because they could not kill or convince the people who are taking them with magic.

None of them are going to enjoy the next 10 or so years this war is going to take it simply because Ariana is dead and isn't going to suggest the blood ritual and every death that they suffer because they could not kill someone, that they could not transform someone, could not mind wipe someone is another death that will be on the heads of the white Council leadership in the eyes of the vast majority of the members.

If the younger membership knows about the alternative that we're offering. It will also be fully and completely deserved.

There's no Universe where you recruit an army and then tell them "we could have made you guys a very least 50% more effective against the vast majority of beings you're going to fight except we don't want to do that because of our beliefs and our hangups. " and that's going to be a popular stance.
 
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Welp, I'm exhausted, didn't sleep last night for reasons that I suspect can be guessed at but I do not want to drag into the thread, Just popping in to say the update may be late this time around.
 
Yog said:
The "world" is not against us. Certain parties are against us, and they cannot afford to wholly commit to fighting only us, and you are way over reacting. The numbers just don't work out for how dangerous you are presenting the portal as.
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The red court, the Denarians, the outside, opportunistic powers of various levels. We've got some very big fish with some very big guns interested in us.

It's like being in Southeast Asia during the Cold War and going "the whole world isn't against me, just the USA/USSR".

The FCF should have a supremely hilarious advantage in conventional conflict, but it's still possible we could lose people to it with the major global powers if they pop their big guns. Then there's the cosmic grade people; Nemesis is going to want to hurt us like nothing else through this opportunity. His plan before was to start witch hunts, but I'd be surprised if he didn't want to spark and interdimensional war now instead just to start.

When I think of defenses here I'm envisioning a minimum of one fortress splendor to immunize the guards to bullshit stuff, one sphere of influence splendor to abuse Malko's connections to make operating near us miserable for supernatural predators, a fortress on either side of the portal with personal investment from Molly, white council warding contractors on top of that, and political bullshit with all the nations were now sharing borders with so they don't become (or remain) tools of our enemies.

That's just to start.

We also have to concern ourselves with the wizards getting screwed because of how weakened they are at the moment. It's possible that keeping the reds off their back while they reorganize will require wide area military intervention.
 
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