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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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uju32 said:
Like @firefrog600 said, we have people for that, and a world full of resources to draw on.
We also have 4x clones and 24 Clone AP.

Besides, when this happened in canon in Turn Coat, the White Council explicitly handled rehabilitation in-house.
Thats probably not going to change for anyone not in Molly's confidence.

For one thing, these arent warlocks, these are thralls.
These wizards have been mind-controlled, not misled,deluded or blackmailed.

For another, why wouldnt you want to? Saving thralls serves multiple purposes
1) It burnishes our IC reputation and puts people further in our debt, and wizards can live hundreds of years.
2) It leaves the White Council stronger, which saves us extra trouble in the future since we have to carry less of their weight
3) It preserves extra sources of intelligence for interrogation at the end of the incident, which means that Molly doesnt have to show her Crown as much to help the Council fill in the picture

4)It is in line with Molly's Intimacies.
If Michael was here, he would be trying to do the same thing, and What Would Michael Do is one of Molly's guiding principles.
Her other major Intimacy is Harry, and Harry would be trying to do the same thing.

4) It is also precisely the sort of thing that actually earns us extra XP at the end of the Arc.
I would not be surprised if the QM is actively tracking that as a category.
You dont get XP for easy shit.
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Honestly I'll call bullshit if this isn't our most exp rewarding arc so far. As we're coming up on killing a lord of the outer knight, recruiting red court, ressing and saving a god, discovering the hidden plot of at least some of the white council traitors, discovering the white council traitors, subduing and killing white council traitors, saving at least some of the white council from dying and preventing more subversion, probably killing some outsider infected, freeing some from mind control, convinced some people that are hard to argue with to listen to us, if we're lucky solving the white council traitor problem something we've known about for more than 200 posts, made a permanent portal to our hell(I know this is controversial but it is definitely exp worthy), hopefully killing a denarian, what else have we done I know we've done more? I am genuinely asking we've done a lot.
 
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hey speaking of clone ap should one of our clones go through schooling in our hell? Because its kind of criminally negligent we don't understand our kingdoms culture, history, and so on. Beyond our immediate knowledge given by the world being our soul.
 
We bought the FSB charm earlier with the intent being to use it on WC warlocks. Now some people don't want to save the WC warlocks to use the thing we already paid for on. Y'all are weird.

[X]Plan Thrall Takedown
 
BoredMan said:
We bought the FSB charm earlier with the intent being to use it on WC warlocks. Now some people don't want to save the WC warlocks to use the thing we already paid for on. Y'all are weird.

[X]Plan Thrall Takedown
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Come on we bought it for fucking Carlos and his guys not random fucks and I think you know that. Not to mention there's only two people voting to kill these guys and I don't even know if they actually voted for the fucking false Springs Beckon.
 
Degorium said:
Come on we bought it for fucking Carlos and his guys not random fucks and I think you know that. Not to mention there's only two people voting to kill these guys and I don't even know if they actually voted for the fucking false Springs Beckon.
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There's a few things I could say here but rather than bother with it, I'm just going to stop responding to your post. You consistently blow up on me over "say what you actually mean" and I don't ever recall being able to convince you of anything or to change a vote through dialogue anyway.
 
BoredMan said:
There's a few things I could say here but rather than bother with it, I'm just going to stop responding to your post. You consistently blow up on me over "say what you actually mean" and I don't ever recall being able to convince you of anything or to change a vote through dialogue anyway.
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I've got to go back aways fot this but I think that's mostly because of differences in how we should handle situations which are not easily reconcilable either different subtexts or general opinions on how a situation is forming means that unless something's context is changed the vote won't be.

Though I do remember you giving me some really good information that has caused me to change my vote before.

On the say what you mean front. There's no time limit on a thread input or Reason to just not type what you want to say I will admit due to essentially my late pickup of threads/ forums I tend to try to be accurate/formal in what I say and the thing is I still make a lot of spelling and grammar errors.

So I use words like compellence and the like to very specifically narrow my definitions of what I'm saying.

I'm sorry if I have come across like I'm blowing up or were getting angry at you, I can only interact with what I can see of your comments though so there's a very limited interaction there that leaves me with very little room for interpretation. Especially when I use very specific verbiage on purpose.

All this to say you tend to have well formed opinions based on evidence in story and out about a lot of things and I would hate to think that I have driven you away from commenting or informing me when I'm actually incorrect or contextually wrong even if it doesn't end up changing my vote I still appreciate it the comment.
 
BoredMan said:
We bought the FSB charm earlier with the intent being to use it on WC warlocks. Now some people don't want to save the WC warlocks to use the thing we already paid for on. Y'all are weird.

[X]Plan Thrall Takedown
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I voted for FSB to help Carlos and friends, so that they will be much more grateful to us and thus we will have more influence with the next generation of mages. In more general terms I also voted with the intention of helping our current minions, I would like to remind you that we caught Mutt in Vegas, a whampire who hates himself because he can only feed on suicidal people in exchange for a power increase and we promised to help and still haven't done anything in that direction, and to get more minions whose problems our previous charm couldn't help.

I don't mind faceless warlocks, especially when they are on the way to get our hands on a Fallen before he does a million possible bad things with a divination focus as powerful as the finger is implied to be.
 
Azais said:
I voted for FSB to help Carlos and friends, so that they will be much more grateful to us and thus we will have more influence with the next generation of mages
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Consider the fact that the Red Court can make more combat ready versions of themselves in a rather short timeframe compared to the WC which require decades to do the same. This fact has been pointed out repeatedly but some of y'all have been purposefully paying no mind to the bigger picture.

As if the Reds killing off the WC and taking their things won't divert more of our AP in the long run and make things more difficult for us in turn. They've been our enemy ever since we killed Arianna, then Samuel in Vegas, and most recently after recovering a shackled god, killing a Lord of the Outer Night and leaving an entrance to our world in their backyard.


Azais said:
I don't mind faceless warlocks, especially when they are on the way to get our hands on a Fallen before he does a million possible bad things with a divination focus as powerful as the finger is implied to be.
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Fair point but I'm not seeing how this would require a significant expenditure of time to handle. These guys are mooks.
 
Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Oct 4, 2024 at 12:46 PM, finished with 37 posts and 11 votes.
  • [X]Plan Thrall Takedown
    -[X] Try to take them alive
    -[X]Tiffany: Attack: Light 1 on thrall wizards
    -[X]Molly: Activate Aspects: Flight, Sword, Transcendent Anathema + Surprise Negator
    -[X]Molly: Defend Action + Melee Excellency: Parry water attack with Dark Sun
    -[X]Molly: Move Action: To/behind enemy wizards
    -[X]Molly: Attack Action: Sword hilt to solar plexus of Thrall Wizard 1
    -[X]Molly: Charms: Melee Excellency + ATB(if expired)
    -[X]Olivia: Called shot to staff hand of Thrall Wizard 2
    -[X]Wizards: As appropriate
    -[X]STUNT: As Dark Sun parries both water lances, light, revealing and blinding at once, erupts from Tiffany's pointing finger, blossoming soundlessly in the face of your enthralled attackers as a single shot rings out. You lunge forward as they both flinch, aerosolized water settling on you arm as you drive your sword hilt into the solar plexus of one of your attackers. You make an involuntary face of disgust as your victim abruptly pukes over you, then you viciously shield check them into their fellow, driving both of them into the wall.
    [X] Leave them to Morgan, you have a Fallen to deal with
    [X] Plan: Sprint through
    -[X] Try to take them alive
    --[X] By Rage Recast no cost
    --[X] Melee Excellency 1 Essence
    --[X]Tiffany: Attack: Light 1 on thrall wizards
    --[X]Olivia: Called shot to staff hand of Thrall Wizard 2
    --[X]Wizards: As appropriate
    ---[X] Stunt: Signing, planting your hand in the water on the ground. You launch sprinting around the jets of boiling water and slam the flat of your blade into the head of one of them already set in your defense physical with shield readied and magical with essence twisting against the other.
    [X] Plan: Sprint through
    -[X] Try to take them alive
    --[X] Melee Excellency 1 Essence
    ---[X] Stunt: Signing, planting your hand in the water on the ground. You launch sprinting around the jets of boiling water and slam the flat of your blade into the head of one of them already set in your defense physical with shield readied and magical with essence twisting against the other.
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BoredMan said:
Consider the fact that the Red Court can make more combat ready versions of themselves in a rather short timeframe compared to the WC which require decades to do the same. This fact has been pointed out repeatedly but some of y'all have been purposefully paying no mind to the bigger picture.

As if the Reds killing off the WC and taking their things won't divert more of our AP in the long run and make things more difficult for us in turn. They've been our enemy ever since we killed Arianna, then Samuel in Vegas, and most recently after recovering a shackled god, killing a Lord of the Outer Night and leaving an entrance to our world in their backyard.
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Boreman, when in that entire post (and I went back to check) did I even insinuate anything about the Reds? Or are you thinking of some conversation with someone else?

I literally said that I want to have more hook in the new generation of wizards, without saying anything about their enemies, because it will be much easier for them to make deals and accept ideas that the older ones are seeming to have (I'm still a little angry and I don't understand what game Mai is playing by irritating us and decreasing the chance of their own boss surviving).

Your answer has nothing to do with what I said.
BoredMan said:
Fair point but I'm not seeing how this would require a significant expenditure of time to handle. These guys are mooks
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Yes, and since they're mooks we spend more time worrying about defeating them without killing them than actually defeating them. I don't see the point in having a grand plan like the current one when we can just tell Molly to kill them and she'll use her choices however she sees fit.

This part is more a matter of preference perhaps, now that I'm thinking about it more deeply. I prefer short, simple voting plans over longer, more complicated ones. Especially when the outcome doesn't particularly matter to me, whether they live or die now. What we'll have to do in the future because of them on the other hand....
 
Azais said:
Boreman, when in that entire post (and I went back to check) did I even insinuate anything about the Reds? Or are you thinking of some conversation with someone else?

I literally said that I want to have more hook in the new generation of wizards, without saying anything about their enemies, because it will be much easier for them to make deals and accept ideas that the older ones are seeming to have (I'm still a little angry and I don't understand what game Mai is playing by irritating us and decreasing the chance of their own boss surviving).

Your answer has nothing to do with what I said.

Yes, and since they're mooks we spend more time worrying about defeating them without killing them than actually defeating them. I don't see the point in having a grand plan like the current one when we can just tell Molly to kill them and she'll use her choices however she sees fit.

This part is more a matter of preference perhaps, now that I'm thinking about it more deeply. I prefer short, simple voting plans over longer, more complicated ones. Especially when the outcome doesn't particularly matter to me, whether they live or die now. What we'll have to do in the future because of them on the other hand....
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I mean there are consequences to that like worse nightmares if molly starts killing thralls she is the type to agonize over that shit for years.
 
Azais said:
Boreman, when in that entire post (and I went back to check) did I even insinuate anything about the Reds? Or are you thinking of some conversation with someone else?
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You didn't. That was my attempt to convince you that you are being close minded here. Either you aren't considering how doing things a certain way could cause problems for us later on or you are apathetic to it.

Azais said:
Yes, and since they're mooks we spend more time worrying about defeating them without killing them than actually defeating them. I don't see the point in having a grand plan like the current one when we can just tell Molly to kill them and she'll use her choices however she sees fit.
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It doesn't normally take Molly more time to kill mooks than to just knock them out honestly. The power disparity is that vast. Though yeah we do have the option of going around them and leaving it to Morgan, it still doesn't seem like a big deal when the seconds burned in doing so should be negligible. The trade off being that you save decades of personnel investment.

If your right though in that those few seconds would allow the Denarian to escape I'll fully admit we shouldn't have bothered and take this into account going forward.

Azais said:
Especially when the outcome doesn't particularly matter to me, whether they live or die now. What we'll have to do in the future because of them on the other hand....
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This is literally why I started talking about the Reds. I just pointed out that if the WC looses their war and have their stuff stolen that makes much more work for the player-base in the future. Saving Warlocks when possible makes that undesirable outcome much less likely.
 
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firefrog600 said:
I mean there are consequences to that like worse nightmares if molly starts killing thralls she is the type to agonize over that shit for years.
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Molly never had any problems with the many fights she had and many were slaves or mentally unstable, for example the Berserkes in the first turn and the smaller Skinwalker apprentices. Please don't invent flaws.
 
Azais said:
Molly never had any problems with the many fights she had and many were slaves or mentally unstable, for example the Berserkes in the first turn and the smaller Skinwalker apprentices. Please don't invent flaws.
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uh those guys were willing very willing fucked up and maybe abused sure but they very much were not just fucked in the head against their will and were very murder happy. Mostly same for the berserkers dude they simply worked for worse people they were basically just magical thugs.
 
firefrog600 said:
Honestly I'll call bullshit if this isn't our most exp rewarding arc so far. As we're coming up on killing a lord of the outer knight, recruiting red court, ressing and saving a god, discovering the hidden plot of at least some of the white council traitors, discovering the white council traitors, subduing and killing white council traitors, saving at least some of the white council from dying and preventing more subversion, probably killing some outsider infected, freeing some from mind control, convinced some people that are hard to argue with to listen to us, if we're lucky solving the white council traitor problem something we've known about for more than 200 posts, made a permanent portal to our hell(I know this is controversial but it is definitely exp worthy), hopefully killing a denarian, what else have we done I know we've done more? I am genuinely asking we've done a lot.
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Yeah, this is pretty much the worst downtime/crafting arc ever.
 
firefrog600 said:
uh those guys were willing very willing fucked up and maybe abused sure but they very much were not just fucked in the head against their will and were very murder happy. Mostly same for the berserkers dude they simply worked for worse people they were basically just magical thugs.
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Due to the fact that mind control in Dresden files actively eats away at the brains of people you use it on these guys are also almost certainly magical thugs for the denarian as well hardcore mind control literally starts to kill the person so these guys are on some level still actively just working for a denarian and also shooting high pressure boiling water down a hallway to attempt to kill the people.

I'm not even in the kill them camp but these guys are exactly the same as those Berserkers and Seekers minions.
 
BoredMan said:
This is literally why I started talking about the Reds. I just pointed out that if the WC looses their war and have their stuff stolen that makes much more work for the player-base in the future. Saving Warlocks when possible makes that undesirable outcome much less likely.
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Ah, that's the direction you went, I see now. Even if we save them now, they won't matter in the fight. The Council will take years to let the people who participated in this disaster join important operations, with the Wardens just being mind-tricked by Peabody and not those who knew the information long before, just like those we interrogated did. The only reason the Council doesn't just kill them immediately, because besides being warlocks they are also traitors, is because we're going to ask them to.

Saving them or not has no influence on the war because for WC itself, these people could very well have actually died, until we can prove that we can stop the dark magic on them and they have regained their lost trust.

They don't trust that we can solve the problems of black magic easily (it will take time for them to trust this, since it is very critical for them), and not to mention that the true warlocks will have to stay in our world for years just to be mentally healed, away from fighting.

Regarding the Reds, I am counting on the portal and the consequences of the current disaster to force more military cooperation with WC and to summon more of our troops to reality, to replace the holes that the death of so many wizards has opened, and while the Senior Council tries to put itself in order after one of its members was discovered to be a traitor, and take the fight to them. I am not counting on WC in 95% of the cases, both because of the lack of numbers, as you mentioned, and because, as BronzeTongue explained very well before, their logistics and plan are very questionable, at best.

I honestly think we made a mistake in trying to only help the Council as allies before, when we should have just gone into all-out war with the Reds, at least we'll have real soldiers to make plans with.
 
Degorium said:
Due to the fact that mind control in Dresden files actively eats away at the brains of people you use it on these guys are also almost certainly magical thugs for the denarian as well hardcore mind control literally starts to kill the person so these guys are on some level still actively just working for a denarian and also shooting high pressure boiling water down a hallway to attempt to kill the people.

I'm not even in the kill them camp but these guys are exactly the same as those Berserkers and Seekers minions.
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I mean the berserkers seemed faiiiiirly in it for themselves same for the seekers. I mean some probably had sad stories and such starting out but some of the berserkers were basically the magical equivalent of nazi sympathizers.
 
firefrog600 said:
uh those guys were willing very willing fucked up and maybe abused sure but they very much were not just fucked in the head against their will and were very murder happy. Mostly same for the berserkers dude they simply worked for worse people they were basically just magical thugs.
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Degorium said:
Due to the fact that mind control in Dresden files actively eats away at the brains of people you use it on these guys are also almost certainly magical thugs for the denarian as well hardcore mind control literally starts to kill the person so these guys are on some level still actively just working for a denarian and also shooting high pressure boiling water down a hallway to attempt to kill the people.

I'm not even in the kill them camp but these guys are exactly the same as those Berserkers and Seekers minions.
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Yes if they had been completely controlled they would have been idiots drooling over mental damage, on some level they are working of their own free will, maybe as you said "after being abused and tortured" but in that there is no difference with Broken Shaw's apprentices, as they also suffered and were raised in that and Molly was fully willing to kill them easily.
 
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firefrog600 said:
I mean the berserkers seemed faiiiiirly in it for themselves same for the seekers. I mean some probably had sad stories and such starting out but some of the berserkers were basically the magical equivalent of nazi sympathizers.
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Fair enough. Molly doesn't seem to have problems actually striking people that are attempting to kill her though which due to reasons I've stated before they are just attempting to do that.

At very best their sacrificed fodder so a fallen angel can perform whatever agenda they're here to do. That are fully okay with casting magic that would kill pretty much any human it ever would come in contact with on it down a hallway where there are only humans in the tunnels.
 
Azais said:
Saving them or not has no influence on the war because for WC itself, these people could very well have actually died, until we can prove that we can stop the dark magic on them and they have regained their lost trust.

They don't trust that we can solve the problems of black magic easily (it will take time for them to trust this, since it is very critical for them), and not to mention that the true warlocks will have to stay in our world for years just to be mentally healed, away from fighting.
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I don't think this is an entirely fair read but I get it. This very much looks like I'd have to be handled on a case by case basis. I think your overgeneralizing the traitors. Some of them are much more to blame than others for the acts they participated in.

For example, if someone gets blackmailed using the following method "If you don't help me destroy the Council right now your family gets killed" the WC would in theory take that sort of thing into account in their judgement.

Though in canon they handled rehabilitation inhouse and that was without FSB on hand accounting for mental corruption. Such things may not require years and they may become assets yet again in a much smaller timeframe. Perhaps I am placing more value on them for the war effort than there actually is but I don't believe so.

Azais said:
Regarding the Reds, I am counting on the portal and the consequences of the current disaster to force more military cooperation with WC and to summon more of our troops to reality, to replace the holes that the death of so many wizards has opened, and while the Senior Council tries to put itself in order after one of its members was discovered to be a traitor, and take the fight to them. I am not counting on WC in 95% of the cases, both because of the lack of numbers, as you mentioned, and because, as BronzeTongue explained very well before, their logistics and plan are very questionable, at best.

I honestly think we made a mistake in trying to only help the Council as allies before, when we should have just gone into all-out war with the Reds, at least we'll have real soldiers to make plans with.
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..I don't think I can really disagree with your assessment here, though I'm not in agreement either. I mean, we'd have to wait and see how this all pans out. Earlier it was at least stated that apparently the WC is doing better up until this point with the war than they were in canon.

With that said Id also like to point out that a good majority of the Five Fold Court's citizens aren't okay with the perma-death thing on earth so our assets are still limited in that respect. We could try and change that a bit by taking more actions in the FFC but we haven't as of yet.
 
@BoredMan yes a lot of my thoughts may be challenged by the end of the event but I'm glad to see that my thoughts don't have any glaring flaws and others may agree. But yeah, we'll see later.
 
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