Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[x]Plan Simple vision
-[X]Olivia uses first dot hell weaving to trap the warlock in a scary vision. 1 demon chi and giving Molly a gold coin.
-[x] Molly uses Shadow Spite Curse to make the Warlock fumble his death curse just in case. BSM and CCC still apply.
 
Though I'm not really sure why we wouldn't want Olivia to just kill this guy. Doesn't he need more time to actually cast a DC or has he already met that requirement?
Because we dont know if this guy is a conspirator or a brainwashed zombie.
And the White Council would probably appreciate being able to thoroughly interrogate every captive for details of everything they have done in service of this conspiracy, so they can try to start fixing shit.

The original thing in the book was way longer with loads of examples for what counted as direct furtherance of his and the Yama Kings' evil purposes which all didn't apply, but the general idea still should. When Olivia is acting directly under our orders to our ends it can last a whole day.

But I still think that Olivia just using the first dot of Hell weaving to show a scary vision would be a better way to stop the warlock then ballistic surgery.
Read your quote again.
The default is scenelong. The QM might allow it to go on for longer, but nowhere does it say you should expect something to last for a day as default.


Harry is a baby wizard with very little Mind, and he's had to deal with no-shit actual demons trying to kill him multiple times.
He's summoned demons from Hell.At none of those times has he reacted by fleeing.
Scary shit is their day job.

Trying to scare another wizard, with unknown aptitudes and defenses is just a bad idea.

Not to mention that Olivia almost certainly doesnt have any gold coins around to boot; college students with student loans dont typically walk around with $2600 gold coins in their back pocket.
 
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Read your quote again.
The default is scenelong. The QM might allow it to go on for longer, but nowhere does it say you should expect something to last for a day as default.
Yes I did read it! That means that Olivia can be assured of at least a scene long so long as she can sort of justify why she is working in Molly's interests.

But is still the case that when directly working with Molly on a quick mission using hellweave 3 is a good move in general because it can generally expect to last longer.
Harry is a baby wizard with very little Mind, and he's had to deal with no-shit actual demons trying to kill him multiple times.

At none of those times has he reacted by fleeing.

Trying to scare another wizard, with unknown aptitudes and defenses is just a bad idea.

Completely off topic unless they were using hell weaving 1 vision.
Not to mention that Olivia almost certainly doesnt have any gold coins around to boot; college students with student loans dont typically walk around with $2600 gold coins in their back pocket.
Obviously we gave her a coin in the past for exactly this situation.
 
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Because we dont know if this guy is a conspirator or a brainwashed zombie.
And the White Council would probably appreciate being able to thoroughly interrogate every captive for details of everything they have done in service of this conspiracy, so they can try to start fixing shit.
Brainwashed zombies can cast DeathCurses??

That's a nice thought. I don't think it's a realistic one though, to take every Warlock captive and not kill any. I can't imagine the wizards are expecting that either.
 
Yes I did read it! That means that Olivia can be assured of at least a scene long so long as she can sort of justify why she is working in Molly's interests.

But is still the case that when directly working with Molly on a quick mission using hellweave 3 is a good move in general because it can generally expect to last longer.
Again, this entire affair is going to take longer than a scene; we havent even begun to approach the Hidden Halls yet.
Spending 2/3 Demon Chi right now is expending resources she cant replenish at the very beginning of the scene.
Completely off topic unless they were using hell weaving 1 vision.
Vampires and Fae regularly throw around Presence and Dominate-equivalents.
Wizards just as regularly ignore them.
A 1-dot Discipline quivalent isnt going to do shit to a wizard of experience.
Obviously we gave her a coin in the past for exactly this situation.
That would be our money, not hers. You dont pay a Yama King with their own cash.
Olivia literally took Debts as a 3-point Flaw.
She doesnt have the money around to spend.

Brainwashed zombies can cast DeathCurses??

That's a nice thought. I don't think it's a realistic one though, to take every Warlock captive and not kill any. I can't imagine the wizards are expecting that either.
1) "Those wizards are traitors to the White Council, coming to overthrow the Senior Council with the help of a hell-queen and her associates and the infamous rogue wizard Dresden.
Dont let them take you alive."

Its not even unprecedented; Dresden says in Dead Beat that wizards have a silent understanding to never let vampires take them alive.
If they managed to turn a Warden, especially one of the senior commanders, it would give them access to a treasury of knowledge and secrets-to say nothing of the fact that they would effectively gain, in many ways, a wizard of their own. Vampires didn't use magic in the same way that mortal wizards did. They tapped into the same nauseating well of power that Kemmler and those like him used. But from what I understood of it, the skills carried over. A turned wizard would be a deadly threat to the Wardens, the Council, and mortals alike. We never talked about it, but there was a sort of silent understanding among wizards that we would never be taken alive. And an equally silent fear that we might be.
All that a mind controller has to do is lie and embellish and tweak a little.
And Peabody is senior enough to actually give orders if there are no Senior Council around. Plus, he has Commander Luccio under his command.


2) For other people, maybe not.
But for a Solaroid, its kinda the expected level of challenge. If we just wanted to kill people, we wouldnt have brought a very differently specced support group; Molly and Sophia alon could have murdered much of the opposition here from stealth.
 
[x] Let the wizards handle is
-[x]Use Shadow Spite Curse to make the Warlock fumble his death curse. BSM and CCC still apply.
-[x]Stunt: Dealing with the death curse of Warlocks is hardly anything new for Wardens of the White Council. But you put your thumb on the scale. The Warlock's spite is nothing compared to your own.
 
[x] Let the wizards handle is
-[x]Use Shadow Spite Curse to make the Warlock fumble his death curse. BSM and CCC still apply.
-[x]Stunt: Dealing with the death curse of Warlocks is hardly anything new for Wardens of the White Council. But you put your thumb on the scale. The Warlock's spite is nothing compared to your own.
Doing so means McCoy kills him with the Blackstaff.
"It's just lightning, I can ground it!" The earth shakes and the air starts to grow heavy with summoned moisture as Carlos starts to work his will, but your eyes are on McCoy, he's reaching for something with his right hand that isn't there...isn't there yet.
Which means we dont have a prisoner to interrogate later, and exposes secrets that a lot of people dont know.
Neither Olivia nor Carlos know that the Blackstaff is a thing, for example. That there is someone who is allowed to break the Laws.
Im not even sure all the older wizards know who the current Blackstaff is.

We dont need to manage that kinda revelation right now.
 
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"Those wizards are traitors to the White Council, coming to overthrow the Senior Council with the help of a hell-queen and her associates and the infamous rogue wizard Dresden.
Dont let them take you alive."
When I said I don't think that the wizards are expecting that I was referring to the ones in our party.

That's definitely an angle they can play though. I don't see how taking them alive would stop them from trying this.
All that a mind controller has to do is lie and embellish and tweak a little.
And Peabody is senior enough to actually give orders if there are no Senior Council around. Plus, he has Commander Luccio under his command.
Did you mean like, coercing someone into possibly doing it with magic?

For other people, maybe not.
But for a Solaroid, its kinda the expected level of challenge. If we just wanted to kill people, we wouldnt have brought a very differently specced support group; Molly and Sophia alon could have murdered much of the opposition here from stealth.
If trying to take everyone alive even in instances when they're casting a DC noticably increases the difficulty I'm not voting for it. I'm sure we can take some alive but that's different from trying for everyone regardless of what they're doing.

Molly and Sophia didn't have the option of going by themselves the Wizards wanted to come along.
 
When I said I don't think that the wizards are expecting that I was referring to the ones in our party.

That's definitely an angle they can play though. I don't see how taking them alive would stop them from trying this.
Expecting? No. Hoping? Yes.
Note how they didnt blast the first attacker in the bathroom? Or how Carlos is trying to ground the lightning instead of drawing his firearm and blowing off the head of the attacker?

No wizard here relishes the idea of killing other wizards, and other than those names we got out of Shaw, everyone else is basically accused by Molly's uncorroborated word. And none of them other than Harry is going to like to be working on that.
And mind control situations get very messy quick

A zealot/committed White Council wizard defending Edinburgh against what he was told were invaders is just as deadly as a knowing warlock conspirator. And you cannot sort out who is who when the bullets and fireballs begin to fly.
Did you mean like, coercing someone into possibly doing it with magic?
There are levels to mind control.
Coercing someone into thinking they have to do something certainly is one of it.
Persuading them is another, and more often to be more commonly used.

And Im not even going into the use of perceptual filters; if someone can make you think Joe Wizard over there was turned by the Reds, you'll fight them as if they were Rampires.
With every dirty trick in your arsenal.

Molly allegedly did that to people in Ghost Story, I think.
If trying to take everyone alive even in instances when they're casting a DC noticably increases the difficulty I'm not voting for it. I'm sure we can take some alive but that's different from trying for everyone regardless of what they're doing.

Molly and Sophia didn't have the option of going by themselves the Wizards wanted to come along.
That is certainly your prerogative.
But the whole reason we're handling this ourselves is because Molly being here means she can take options that are impossible for normal mortals to contemplate.

Both for the end of turn XP, and because of how it saves us future problems by both preventing wizard casualties today, and allowing us to take enough prisoners that we can get a full accounting of what they have been doing for the last several decades, so we and others can attempt a complete cleanup and to repair damage they have caused.

=====
Molly and Sophia always had the option of going by themselves.
We literally went to Brazil to get Morgan and his crew out of the teeth of a prepared ambush by Red Court forces. We could have ignored him and gone in with a stealth team backing Molly and Sophia.

But that was not the option that would have produced the best results. So we went to Brazil, fought and murdered a Lord of Outer Night, just as preparation for this.
 
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Current tally:
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Sep 14, 2024 at 8:06 PM, finished with 65 posts and 9 votes.

  • [X]Plan Shutdown
    -[X] Olivia tries to send a sniper bullet through the warlock's brain stem, causing him to blank out without technically killing him. Tiffany can fix him for interrogation later
    --[X]Olivia: Flow of Ki + spend WP for automatic success: 1WP, 2 Mana
    --[X]Molly: Shadow Spite Curse on warlock
    --[X]Sophia: Grab body of warlock before he hits the ground and breaks his damned neck
    --[X]Tiffany: Manipulate Flesh(Stamina) on self to increase soak
    [x] Let the wizards handle is
    -[x]Use Shadow Spite Curse to make the Warlock fumble his death curse. BSM and CCC still apply.
    -[x]Stunt: Dealing with the death curse of Warlocks is hardly anything new for Wardens of the White Council. But you put your thumb on the scale. The Warlock's spite is nothing compared to your own.
    [x]Plan Simple vision
    -[X]Olivia uses first dot hell weaving to trap the warlock in a scary vision. 1 demon chi and giving Molly a gold coin.
    -[x] Molly uses Shadow Spite Curse to make the Warlock fumble his death curse just in case. BSM and CCC still apply.
    [X] Plan By Our Will
    -[X] Olivia tries to send a sniper bullet through the warlock's brain stem, causing him to blank out without technically killing him. Tiffany can fix him for interrogation later
    --[X]Molly: Shadow Spite Curse on warlock
    --[X] Olivia: Hellweaving 2 Demon chi
    --[X] Olivia: Flow of Ki 2 Mana
    --[X] Stunt: "Olivia we need him alive" you called out as Shadows spill and curl upon the Warlock " On it" the simple two word response belies the speed at which her Electro rifle slings over her shoulder into her hands with the scope near her eye as the tides of fortune and her own magic rip and turn as she focuses on the Warlock.
 
There are levels to mind control.
Coercing someone into thinking they have to do something certainly is one of it.
Persuading them is another, and more often to be more commonly used.

And Im not even going into the use of perceptual filters; if someone can make you think Joe Wizard over there was turned by the Reds, you'll fight them as if they were Rampires.
With every dirty trick in your arsenal.
Yeah that's valid. Your original post read like you were implying something way different to me.

Expecting? No. Hoping? Yes.
Note how they didnt blast the first attacker in the bathroom? Or how Carlos is trying to ground the lightning instead of drawing his firearm and blowing off the head of the attacker?
That is certainly your prerogative.
But the whole reason we're handling this ourselves is because Molly being here means she can take options that are impossible for normal mortals to contemplate.

Both for the end of turn XP, and because of how it saves us future problems by both preventing wizard casualties today, and allowing us to take enough prisoners that we can get a full accounting of what they have been doing for the last several decades, so we and others can attempt a complete cleanup and to repair damage they have caused.
Please don't act like trying to take every hostile in with possibly more Death Curses involved and who knows what else down the pipeline may not significantly increase the difficulty of handling this mess with minimal causalities. If the other guy is trying to kill you, the other guy is trying to kill you. Respond non-lethally if it doesn't appear have a good chance of screwing your people over. Taking in prisoners and trying to take EVERYONE in regardless of risk are two different things.

I think it's unrealistic not to expect any Warlocks to die here frankly.

Molly and Sophia always had the option of going by themselves.
We literally went to Brazil to get Morgan and his crew out of the teeth of a prepared ambush by Red Court forces. We could have ignored him and gone in with a stealth team backing Molly and Sophia.

But that was not the option that would have produced the best results. So we went to Brazil, fought and murdered a Lord of Outer Night, just as preparation for this.
Yeah that's because we didn't know what mess they were in and the timing was incredibly suspicious when we received that warning from Lily. Just leaving them to it at the time seemed like a bad idea regardless of anything else. Of course we also wanted their help to minimize casualties.

That said after we picked them up it was either go with them or go by ourselves and deal with them probably showing up of their own accord anyway.
 
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Yeah that's valid. Your original post read like you were implying something way different to me.



Please don't act like trying to take every hostile in with possibly more Death Curses involved and who knows what else down the pipeline may not significantly increase the difficulty of handling this mess with minimal causalities. If the other guy is trying to kill you, the other guy is trying to kill you. Respond non-lethally if it doesn't appear have a good chance of screwing your people over. Taking in prisoners and trying to take EVERYONE in regardless of risk are two different things.

I think it's unrealistic not to expect any Warlocks to die here frankly.


Yeah that's because we didn't know what mess they were in and the timing was incredibly suspicious when we received that warning from Lily. Just leaving them to it at the time seemed like a bad idea regardless of anything else. Of course we also wanted their help to minimize casualties.

That said after we picked them up it was either go with them or go by ourselves and deal with them probably showing up of their own accord anyway.
I won't give any pontification about post justification on whether or not we should or shouldn't kill these people but in this moment for Olivia the difficulty of splattering this guy's head against the wall and incapacitating him taking him for interrogation is the same. Which comes down to a completely utilitarian justification of he's more useful alive than as a corpse if for no other reason to obscure how we get our information that we might be able to pry from his body / presence with our crown.

Whether that would be true for the other warlocks here is completely inconsequential to this one who has presented himself in a situation where it is just as easy to nearly kill him as it is to just kill him.
 
I won't give any pontification about post justification on whether or not we should or shouldn't kill these people but in this moment for Olivia the difficulty of splattering this guy's head against the wall and incapacitating him taking him for interrogation is the same. Which comes down to a completely utilitarian justification of he's more useful alive than as a corpse if for no other reason to obscure how we get our information that we might be able to pry from his body / presence with our crown.
The update doesn't seem to support this.
You can't do both options one and two because bullet surgery to make someone blank out instantly is hard enough even with all of Olivia's advantages. Add Molly flying in front of her as a distraction and there is no way she can make the roll.
From the way it was described just killing him would be a lot easier for her.
 
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The update doesn't seem to support this.

From the way or was described just killing him would be a lot easier for her.
On a in-story level yeah just shooting him in the face is way easier than trying to shoot the second vertebra behind his neck through his front. On a mechanical level though the situation is he has presented himself to a sniper rifle whether or not she shoots him directly in the face or through the neck the difficulty is the same due to her Sharpshooter Merit. If we don't do anything to make the difficulty higher she can shoot him just as well whether that be in the face or through the brain stem.

If it takes the same amount of time ammunition and effort to kill him as it does to incapacitate him for interrogation/crown fodder why bother killing him?

The other warlocks are completely inconsequential to this question we could kill the rest of them for all I care but the difference between killing him and not killing him in this particular scenario is we lose Crown fodder/ interrogation information for no real benefit.
 
On a mechanical level though the situation is he has presented himself to a sniper rifle whether or not she shoots him directly in the face or through the neck the difficulty is the same due to her Sharpshooter Merit.
I don't see that in the info tab. What are you talking about?
If it takes the same amount of time ammunition and effort to kill him as it does to incapacitate him for interrogation/crown fodder why bother killing him?
It doesn't seem to is the issue in this instance.
 
If it takes the same amount of time ammunition and effort to kill him as it does to incapacitate him for interrogation/crown fodder why bother killing him?
My fear is that if I give in at this point, the urge to try to non-lethally take them all down will be greater next time, Uju himself said: "So what? We are Solaradoid, we do the impossible"

But for a Solaroid, its kinda the expected level of challenge. If we just wanted to kill people, we wouldnt have brought a very differently specced support group; Molly and Sophia alon could have murdered much of the opposition here from stealth.
Please don't act like trying to take every hostile in with possibly more Death Curses involved and who knows what else down the pipeline may not significantly increase the difficulty of handling this mess with minimal causalities. If the other guy is trying to kill you, the other guy is trying to kill you. Respond non-lethally if it doesn't appear have a good chance of screwing your people over. Taking in prisoners and trying to take EVERYONE in regardless of risk are two different things.

I think it's unrealistic not to expect any Warlocks to die here frankly.
But the whole reason we're handling this ourselves is because Molly being here means she can take options that are impossible for normal mortals to contemplate.

We are facing dozens of wizards in the fortress that they have been preparing for centuries. I don't want to lose the essence (and a large number of post) trying long acrobatics to save them.

If it is just this insane wizard, as cover for our crown, I have no problem. The voting trends that may come from this decision, that is what I have a problem with.
 
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Please don't act like trying to take every hostile in with possibly more Death Curses involved and who knows what else down the pipeline may not significantly increase the difficulty of handling this mess with minimal causalities. If the other guy is trying to kill you, the other guy is trying to kill you. Respond non-lethally if it doesn't appear have a good chance of screwing your people over. Taking in prisoners and trying to take EVERYONE in regardless of risk are two different things.

I think it's unrealistic not to expect any Warlocks to die here frankly.
They dont call on Solaroids for the easy jobs.

And a bunch of those hostiles out there are some of the casualties we are trying to avoid. You would have an argument about the difficulty of taking someone like, say, Peabody alive, who we know is rocking Outsider Investments courtesy of Ashraaaf. But these guys? Please. Especially if they keep feeding them to us piecemeal.

===
I dont agree. This is an assault team with two E4 Exalts, a Demon/Nephilim with Tier 5 Lore of Flesh, a Sorcerer/Assassin, SEVEN wizards/archwizards and a backup team of professional soldiers from Sanctuary. The OPFOR is 7x conspirators in Edinburgh at original check. There IS enough force here for a credible attempt at a no-kill run.

And there probably is bonus XP if we can pull it off.
Yeah that's because we didn't know what mess they were in and the timing was incredibly suspicious when we received that warning from Lily. Just leaving them to it at the time seemed like a bad idea regardless of anything else. Of course we also wanted their help to minimize casualties.

That said after we picked them up it was either go with them or go by ourselves and deal with them probably showing up of their own accord anyway.
We could have saved them and left them to find their way home via the Ways.
We could have brought them to Last Station and then declined to use Sanctuary as a waypoint to transfer them to Edinburgh under the justification of it being an active combat zone.

Molly and Sophia would be in Scotland in minutes, if not seconds; it would take them hours via the Ways. By the time they arrived we'd have been done one way or the other. We had the option if we chose to take it. We didnt choose to take it, because it was an actively worse option than actually involving the wizards in this entire affair.
 
On the vision thing; regardless of the details of how viable it is to scare a wizard in general, aren't we dealing with the psycho who had the whole city under their Sight and managed to look right at Molly with it and come out functional immediately afterwards?

The sound spell seemed like part of the guidance there, since they only caught on to where they needed to focus when we tripped it.

That being the case. He's probably not someone we can rattle with screwed up visions. Honestly, he's probably not salvageable even if he started as a thrall either.

I mean, using the Sight to the point where you're so broken it provides a mechanical benefit against being broken further? That's a perfect effect that blocks even temporary interference with things a step removed from its actual result. He's cooked, and there almost certainly isn't anything anyone can do about it.
 
I mean, using the Sight to the point where you're so broken it provides a mechanical benefit against being broken further? That's a perfect effect that blocks even temporary interference with things a step removed from its actual result. He's cooked, and there almost certainly isn't anything anyone can do about it.

False Springs Beckon should be able to temporarily but indefinitely remove whatever issues he has.
 
I don't see that in the info tab. What are you talking about?
Olivia Spoiler: Crack shot 2 pt Merit
Whether pointing a gun, arrow, or dart, you hit your target with great accuracy. You receive no increased difficulty when targeting any specific location and reduce the difficulty of rolls not involving specific targeting by one.
It doesn't seem to is the issue in this instance.
She will shoot the wizard this turn with us reducing his dice on all actions including Defense no matter how taking this wizard is handled (Bullet Surgery or Splat) he will be felled this turn.
My fear is that if I give in at this point, the urge to try to non-lethally take them all down will be greater next time, Uju himself said: "So what? We are Solaradoid, we do the impossible
That is entirely fair if this wizard hadn't essentially put his head on a platter I would be advocating for something less insane than bullet brain surgery.

Edit for accuracy
 
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Soaking isn't an action.
Yes unfortunately SSC is only for actions not rolls. We can make him fumble a spell or maybe even trip walking*, but soak isn't an action you can do it in your sleep.

Of course human wizards don't soak lethal by default.

*Failed athletics check.
 
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