Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

You posted a page or two ago about how we could hunt down and kill some of the most powerful vampires on earth with the strong implication that it would be a sure thing without significant risk. Which is ridiculous in my book.

I don't think that people will be able to just walk in and invade Molly's soul without issue, but the idea that the setting is as malleable as soft clay isn't reasonable either.

Yes. Between the Crown being able to give us perfect intelligence of their location and defences, our ability to teleport, and our access to WMD, then we can probably pretty trivially kill them.

They're just not playing the same level of game as us. We're told that the entirety of the Red Court, I believe, could go up against Mab and have some but not a great chance of victory. Not Mab and the rest of Winter, or Mab with a fraction of Winter to keep them off her back. All of the Red Court versus Mab solo in a white room.

And we've seen Mab's showings in personal combat in the books. She's no solaroid Exalt, to put it mildly, even if she does apparently have some decent strategic scale powers.

Here, not only is Molly not solo as she has an entire magitech world supporting her, but she can also face and defeat the Red Court in detail before they could concentrate all their strength in one place.
 
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I think the best way to control the gate is to buy the world expansion charm and sacrifice some vampires. Once we are able to transform the area into a version of our world on earth we can combine it with several explendors to make it more difficult to invade
Unfortunately Barren Waste Inflection requires the sacrifice of humans or supernatural beings who are NOT a being of darkness. Yes I am very disappointed as well. Although I am sure that we could find 10 humans on death row, use our crown to make sure that they did it then kidnap them for sacrifice, but most players seem to be against that sort of behavior.
 
You posted a page or two ago about how we could hunt down and kill some of the most powerful vampires on earth with the strong implication that it would be a sure thing without significant risk. Which is ridiculous in my book.

I don't think that people will be able to just walk in and invade Molly's soul without issue, but the idea that the setting is as malleable as soft clay isn't reasonable either.
I mean we can. The exalted are eventually expected to kill caine in ex vs wod. Explicitly so.

The red court collectively doesn't even have a single finger worth of caines power. We also have artillery so thats a massive plus.
 
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54 Total conspirators, 7 Total Aware

Nevernever
13 in sundry other Nevernever realms 0 aware
1 No Name Always Aware, always knows, Almost? Outside.

Material World
7 in the Hidden Halls 2 Aware (One is Peabody)
9 in the in Central and South America 1 Aware
5 in Europe 1 Aware
12 in Africa 1 Aware
6 in Asia 1 Aware
1 in Australia 0 Aware
The ones who arent aware of Molly, and who arent hooked up to the network are in Australia, and the ones in the NeverNever.

=====
VOTE
[X] Try to capture one of the other traitors
-[X] Australia


There is a single strong argument against the NeverNever.
If they are guests in the realm of a NeverNever entity, we cant just barge in and take them.
Which means that Australia is a much less fraught choice.

Also it costs us less Essence to go to Australia.
Molly and Sophia can go there by RVD, and it will only cost 2m to bring anyone from Sanctuary.
CCG to the NeverNever costs 4m per use.
 
There is a single strong argument against the NeverNever.
If they are guests in the realm of a NeverNever entity, we cant just barge in and take them.
Which means that Australia is a much less fraught choice.

Also it costs us less Essence to go to Australia.
Molly and Sophia can go there by RVD, and it will only cost 2m to bring anyone from Sanctuary.
CCG to the NeverNever costs 4m per use.

Well you can, you would just be declaring war. When talking about what an Exalted can do it is always worth keeping in mind that violence is always a question and the answer can be yes. :V
 
Yeah, but that doesn't necessarily change the equation around the portal. There's a bar here for forcing your way through an opening that small guarded by an advanced army. The reds don't have infinite resources and it takes a long time to make a powerful vampire.

This is a hard fight and I'm not enthused about picking it, but I think you lean as hard into tearing down anything we've done or can do as @Alratan does into exalted supremacy with equally ridiculous results.
Yes there is.
99% of the setting wont make that threshold. But we're dealing with the 1%, and I suspect that they can make it through the portal if they put their minds to it.

An advanced army has limits when the OPFOR potentially includes entities that can directly strike at your volition.

I dont think they can rampage unchecked through Sanctuary, mind, any more than we could through the Wicked City, but achieving sufficient access to do so enough to strike at Sanctuary's magical topography seems well within their capabilities.
Even if they have to outsource it to like a Walker or an elder Black Court vampire sorcerer with Dominate.

I mean, people forget that, other than Nemesis/He Who Walks Beside, there are currently two Walkers, what this quest would call Great Walkers, physically loose on Earth right now.

==
Making a powerful vampire organically takes time.
Upgrading an existing one with aftermarket support, not so much. Vito Malvora in canon, and Duke Skavis in this quest are two examples of what can be done with a willing vampire and external support.

And the Red Court has an excess of feral Red Court vampires to expend if necessary, and no shortage of new ones.
They are the second fastest breeding species of vampires after the Blacks.
=====
They do, but they also never came up with the mechanical lock among other things because they never needed one to name just one thing. For more high tech things the idea of a chemical rocket that just works on its own would never have occurred to anyone from the Five Courts since you could always add just a bit of wind manipulation for the stabilization. Magic is in many places to hold up tech that would not otherwise work which means a lot of easy technological solutions were never found
I get the general idea of what you are saying her, and I dont have a problem with it; there's always paths not taken in technological advancement for various reasons, like VHS over Betamax, AC over DC or uranium over thorium.

But this particular example is implausible in a society with vertebrates and the hinge joint.
Its too basic, too fundamental to be passed up.
And too easy to be replicated by hobbyists and the outcast tribes of the Labyrinth.

Think of how comfortable Westerners spend time recreating lowtech things for kicks, like the guy on Youtube who builds houses in the bush by hand with handmade tools

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P73REgj-3UE
 
Well you can, you would just be declaring war. When talking about what an Exalted can do it is always worth keeping in mind that violence is always a question and the answer can be yes. :V
Yeah, lets pick only one war at a time :V

Especially since deep in the NeverNever includes places like Hades' realm, or the Fomor kingdom currently ruled by Ethniu.
Some fights we dont need right now.
 
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[X] Try to capture one of the other traitors
-[X] Australia

The ones who arent aware of Molly, and who arent hooked up to the network are in Australia, and the ones in the NeverNever.

=====
VOTE
[X] Try to capture one of the other traitors
-[X] Australia


There is a single strong argument against the NeverNever.
If they are guests in the realm of a NeverNever entity, we cant just barge in and take them.
Which means that Australia is a much less fraught choice.

Also it costs us less Essence to go to Australia.
Molly and Sophia can go there by RVD, and it will only cost 2m to bring anyone from Sanctuary.
CCG to the NeverNever costs 4m per use.
This is a compelling argument
 
Yeah, lets pick only one war at a time :V

Especially since deep in the NeverNever includes places like Hades' realm, or the Fomor kingdom currently ruled by Ethniu.
Some fights we dont need right now.
Speaking of hades do you think we count as human enough to take his trials for a few pieces of loot? Since you know it's the entire purpose of said vault apparently.
 
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Yeah, lets pick only one war at a time :V
We are currently at 3 to 4 ongoing simultaneous international conflicts / wars: Red Court, Kakuri/Wicked City, Denarians, Nemesis.

Yes there is.
99% of the setting wont make that threshold. But we're dealing with the 1%, and I suspect that they can make it through the portal if they put their minds to it.

An advanced army has limits when the OPFOR potentially includes entities that can directly strike at your volition.

I dont think they can rampage unchecked through Sanctuary, mind, any more than we could through the Wicked City, but achieving sufficient access to do so enough to strike at Sanctuary's magical topography seems well within their capabilities.
Even if they have to outsource it to like a Walker or an elder Black Court vampire sorcerer with Dominate.

I mean, people forget that, other than Nemesis/He Who Walks Beside, there are currently two Walkers, what this quest would call Great Walkers, physically loose on Earth right now.

==
Making a powerful vampire organically takes time.
Upgrading an existing one with aftermarket support, not so much. Vito Malvora in canon, and Duke Skavis in this quest are two examples of what can be done with a willing vampire and external support.

And the Red Court has an excess of feral Red Court vampires to expend if necessary, and no shortage of new ones.
They are the second fastest breeding species of vampires after the Blacks.
=====
I feel you a) strongly underestimating our forces, and b) strongly overstating the importance of that 1% (actually much less) who might get through.

First, about underestimating:
1) We got into Wicked City via infiltration. This is a prepared hard point. A completely different setup. Very few, if any beings have perfect universal scene long defenses, which is basically what's needed here. Especially after we spend some AP reinforcing the entryway with exalted large scale craft

2) Our home field advantage is immense. In the same way our spirit binders are unfamiliar with earth-side spirit world, so too would the invaders be unfamiliar with the rules of our world. Just as quick examples:
2.1) no NenverNever. It's a material world, but there's no NeverNever access. Hell, potentially no hell access.
2.2) Comlletely alien spirits, spiritual landscape, overwhelming aura of hell, etc.
2.3) Lord of the Land and secondary effects. Wizards often work by calling g upon and manipulating outside forces, like Dresden gathering heat from an area around him. In Sanctuary this is probably going to be an opposed roll against Molly's something, because the energies of the world are essentially her bodily humors

3) Ours is not a mundane army hindered by Masquerade. II's an industrial magitech army the likes of which Earth has never seen, that enjoys intelligence advantage. They know (mostly) what might be coming - we (hopefully) briefed them in detail about threats. The attackers are coming in blind, and will keep coming in blind.

Now, the second part, about overestimating the "1%" significance:
1) Most of those who could plausibly breach and get past the defensive lines, are those tied to a faction. If, for example, Emma-O tries to attack us personally, he risks his rivals attacking him while he's occupied in Sanctuary. Remember - travel time is not instantaneous for most parties in Dresden Files. Travel takes hours, some times days if we go with deep NeverNever.

The same issue applies to Red Court specifically - whilelords of outer night are attacking Sanctuary, they are not protecting their bases against Molly or White Council, and at least Molly has mobility superiority.

2) Denarians might not be allowed to come into our realms. Swords of the Cross generally operate on rules comparable to those that govern Denarians in regards to where they can go and how they can operate. The Swords aren't allowed to enter our realm. I expect coins aren't allowed either, unless we bring them in ourselves. Remember, Sanctuary is, very literally, our soul. Denarians cannot take entirely unwilling hosts, you can put down the coin. Forcefully taking a coin into someone's soul is very likely breaking the rules. Not to mention that, as a celestial exalt, our soul is immune from possession and would likely reject the coin vrom inside it automatically.

3) Nemesis can only operate through hosts. Yes, it can boost them, but that breaks its cover, which is a Los condition for it.
 
[X] Try to capture one of the other traitors
-[X] Australia

So I guess we're going to the land down under. Hopefully not too many women are glowing and there's some free plunder.
 
2) Denarians might not be allowed to come into our realms. Swords of the Cross generally operate on rules comparable to those that govern Denarians in regards to where they can go and how they can operate. The Swords aren't allowed to enter our realm.
Huh, never thought of this. Of all the dangerous beings with the motive to break into Sanctuary, the Denarians are probably the worst we have to worry about; if we have to worry about them at all. We have been given warnings not to bring a coin in under threat of direct action, but that was before the portal, and a portal changes the coin from being 'trapped by us' to 'trapped by our world' since we are no longer the only gate.

I do think the Jungle gate is kinda 'worst of both worlds' though, a gate in the Cities themselves would be able to have much more infrastructure and focus on its defense, while a gate in the Wastes would have much stronger natural defenses. The jungles are dangerous, but much more survivable for generally powerful earth-based beings, and easier to hide in then the cities full of electronic eyes.
 
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Huh, never thought of this. Of all the dangerous beings with the motive to break into Sanctuary, the Denarians are probably the worst we have to worry about; if we have to worry about them at all. We have been given warnings not to bring a coin in under threat of direct action, but that was before the portal, and a portal changes the coin from being 'trapped by us' to 'trapped by our world' since we are no longer the only gate.
2) Denarians might not be allowed to come into our realms. Swords of the Cross generally operate on rules comparable to those that govern Denarians in regards to where they can go and how they can operate. The Swords aren't allowed to enter our realm. I expect coins aren't allowed either, unless we bring them in ourselves. Remember, Sanctuary is, very literally, our soul. Denarians cannot take entirely unwilling hosts, you can put down the coin. Forcefully taking a coin into someone's soul is very likely breaking the rules. Not to mention that, as a celestial exalt, our soul is immune from possession and would likely reject the coin vrom inside it automatically.
There's also the fact that by willingly choosing to come into our hell they might be forsaking the protection of Lucifer because he gets carte blanched to free them if we take them in but if they choose to go in we don't know exactly what the ruling on that was but it stands to reason that they have made a play and they must take the risk on their own if they go in even if that reduces them down to just a silver coin in a world that can actively fold over that silver coin.

Yog already mentioned lord of the land but no amount of magic would allow a denarian not to get smashed by a Landslide or struck by thousands of bolts of lightning from Clear Sky.
 
Huh, never thought of this. Of all the dangerous beings with the motive to break into Sanctuary, the Denarians are probably the worst we have to worry about; if we have to worry about them at all. We have been given warnings not to bring a coin in under threat of direct action, but that was before the portal, and a portal changes the coin from being 'trapped by us' to 'trapped by our world' since we are no longer the only gate.

I do think the Jungle gate is kinda 'worst of both worlds' though, a gate in the Cities themselves would be able to have much more infrastructure and focus on its defense, while a gate in the Wastes would have much stronger natural defenses. The jungles are dangerous, but much more survivable for generally powerful earth-based beings, and easier to hide in then the cities full of electronic eyes.
A thought if the coin can't come in without invitation normally which seems fairly likely since swords can't if dp wants the cosmic rules to be fair that is. Well its still likely that a gate could count as an invitation or challenge and if we're allowed to invade well maybe we're allowed to be counter invaded. Really depends on what the gate counts as.
 
There's also the fact that by willingly choosing to come into our hell they might be forsaking the protection of Lucifer because he gets carte blanched to free them if we take them in but if they choose to go in we don't know exactly what the ruling on that was but it stands to reason that they have made a play and they must take the risk on their own if they go in even if that reduces them down to just a silver coin in a world that can actively fold over that silver coin.

Yog already mentioned lord of the land but no amount of magic would allow a denarian not to get smashed by a Landslide or struck by thousands of bolts of lightning from Clear Sky.
You know that if we break the Coin, it's not impossible for us but difficult, it's one of the worst things possible right? This would free the fallen angel trapped with all his unrestricted power, like the author of DF speak, inside our soul and even if Heaven imprisons him back, a gamble because we would be doing it of our own free will, in the time between he can screw us worse than almost anything in the scenario.
 
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You know that if we break the Coin, it's not impossible for us but difficult, it's one of the worst things possible right? This would free the fallen angel trapped with all his unrestricted power, like the author of DF, inside our soul and even if Heaven imprisons him back, it's a gamble because we would be doing it of our own free will, in the time between he can screw us worse than almost anything in the scenario.
I more meant physically Entomb rather than break or otherwise damage just like a Mudslide that leaves it buried under a couple thousand tons of dirt in the middle of nowhere. With no one to help them because they came here willingly in doing so forsake the protection of Lucifer because they chose to make a free willed choice to come into a place where that might happen to them.
 
You know that if we break the Coin, it's not impossible for us but difficult, it's one of the worst things possible right? This would free the fallen angel trapped with all his unrestricted power, like the author of DF speak, inside our soul and even if Heaven imprisons him back, a gamble because we would be doing it of our own free will, in the time between he can screw us worse than almost anything in the scenario.
I mean its not the worst case scenario there's probably a charm combo that could also kill the angel inside it. Mind you thats currently so so far beyond us its insane but the possibility is almost definitely there for essence 7 charms and such.
 
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