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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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DragonParadox said:
'is it OK to command the unquestioning loyalty of something just because you made it?'
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I still don't get why this is a problem.

Look at most of Kakuri or Offering of Blood and Meat or parts of VEE

Infernals aren't moral, especially since being patterned off Hells.

Or Crowned By Fury. There its not even about "do I have the right" but "I now control you, obey or you tear yourself apart".
 
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DragonParadox said:
I re-fluffed that so we would not have to deal with the issues of 'does this spirit understand the world around it' and 'is it OK to command the unquestioning loyalty of something just because you made it?' This way it's easier 'demon makes unbreakable bargain for a way out of hell and into your phone'.
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The spirit was always their, just to weak to do anything, or interact with the world. Such is the lot of small gods in exalted.
 
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Prayer Pieces even used the small gods and prayers in the mechanism of being a gun, they aren't unprecedented to be made use of.

Edit: It also clashes with the thematic changes the Wicked City went through imo, and it was discussed in this thread.

Instead of gremlins stealing tools, now you make them out of Essence.

Instead of summoning demons, you awaken items.

More self sufficiency, not being as beholden to a Hell, and not being in danger of jobbing to wards that keep you from reaching Hell.
 
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DragonParadox said:
I re-fluffed that so we would not have to deal with the issues of 'does this spirit understand the world around it' and 'is it OK to command the unquestioning loyalty of something just because you made it?' This way it's easier 'demon makes unbreakable bargain for a way out of hell and into your phone'.
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Ah, thanks for the clarification, I missed that.

Just to note, in the original ExWoD, you don't create the spirit of the object. In WoD, all objects have minor spirits that live in the Middle Umbra/Yang World, but most of them are asleep because of the fallen nature of the world. A spirit has an inherent understanding of the world and their place in it based on their 'gnosis'/spiritual strength.

A minor spirit like this wouldn't be sapient like a human was, and have a very limited degree of agency beyond fulfilling the nature of the object they were the presentative of. Such weak spirits aren't really more sapient than animals, although they can demonstrate forms of complex behaviour.

I'd say it being a demon in some ways makes it more challenging to use, as they can then do things like carry stories about what they witnessed home, and put off people that don't want to use demon possessed items.
 
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DragonParadox said:
If it kills a human in less than an hour of immersion it works.
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Is this an invitation to cunning players? Because it sounds like an invitation to cunning players to find an otherwise-mostly-safe substance that can kill in less than an hour of immersion, so Molly can keep it around the house. 🤔

My first thought is really hot water - it fits with the "Hell of Boiling Oil" theme. Fully boiling water kills humans in less than five minutes of immersion, so we might be able to use slightly lower temperatures than that.
 
Valkhir said:
I still don't get why this is a problem.

Look at most of Kakuri or Offering of Blood and Meat or parts of VEE

Infernals aren't moral, especially since being patterned off Hells.

Or Crowned By Fury. There its not even about "do I have the right" but "I now control you, obey or you tear yourself apart".
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Molly is moral though?
 
Actually, another thought, if we're summoning a demon to possess an object, it means that Hollow Mind Possession turns into a much cheaper and easier version of:

Devil-Refining Cauldron (••••) The Exalt may craft an item suitable for habitation by a wicked spirit, and then dissolve a Bane or devil until it is ready to be poured into the prepared vessel. System: This Charm allows the character to create fetishes (see W20, page 221). The character must first craft the item that is to serve as the physical substance of the fetish, and must do so entirely by herself. Then, the Exalt uses this Charm to bind a spirit into the fetish. This may be done either with the spirit's willing cooperation, or after battering it until it has been reduced to 0 Essence and then suspending its dissolution for 24 hours by reflexively spending 1 Essence. Such a "suspended" spirit swirls about within the Exalt's anima until either bound into a fetish, or until the suspension ends, at which point the spirit finishes discorporating. To bind a spirit into a prepared vessel, the Exalt must retire to a ritual space and spend (Fetish's rating) hours and (Fetish's rating x 3) Essence binding the spirit and object together. Because of the high Essence cost of this Charm, it is most easily performed within Dragon Nests.​

As a demon possessed object is a Fetish.

Although it's totally up to DragonParadox, I think the original version of the charm may be less probelmatic.
 
The implications of Spirits already carry a moral quandary, if you think about it.

By destroying any inanimate object, are you not destroying its least god/spirit also? Or at least wounding/maiming it.

This is just inherent.

If you are not fine with awakening these spirits due to moral question, you shouldnt let anything else conventionally objectionable happen either.

Or you can just realize that Spirits are spirits.
 
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Valkhir said:
The implications of Spirits already carry a moral quandary, if you think about it.

By destroying any inanimate object, are you not destroying its least god/spirit also? Or at least wounding/maiming it.

This is just inherent.
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Your not, the small god just splits themselves off into new gods, to make up the pieces of an object. Only actual charms like ghost eating can kill the Spirit.
 
Alratan said:
Ah, thanks for the clarification, I missed that.

Just to note, in the original ExWoD, you don't create the spirit of the object. In WoD, all objects have minor spirits that live in the Middle Umbra/Yang World, but most of them are asleep because of the fallen nature of the world. A spirit has an inherent understanding of the world and their place in it based on their 'gnosis'/spiritual strength.

A minor spirit like this wouldn't be sapient like a human was, and have a very limited degree of agency beyond fulfilling the nature of the object they were the presentative of. Such weak spirits aren't really more sapient than animals, although they can demonstrate forms of complex behaviour.

I'd say it being a demon in some ways makes it more challenging to use, as they can then do things like carry stories about what they witnessed home, and put off people that don't want to use demon possessed items.
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It is still an intelligent being that you are enslaving from creation, it is right there in the text, a demon is less trouble because they are already someone's slave and they would simply be selling their fealty for a way out of hell

Valkhir said:
I still don't get why this is a problem.

Look at most of Kakuri or Offering of Blood and Meat or parts of VEE

Infernals aren't moral, especially since being patterned off Hells.

Or Crowned By Fury. There its not even about "do I have the right" but "I now control you, obey or you tear yourself apart".
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Because you use those on enemies if you use them at all, not on an innocent spirit you made/awoke

Yog said:
Stupid question - dos normal water with current running through it count? What about boiling water? Or does it have to be inherent property of the liquid?
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The electricity is not making the water impure so unfortunately not, dangerous impurity is the theme here

Exmorri said:
Is this an invitation to cunning players? Because it sounds like an invitation to cunning players to find an otherwise-mostly-safe substance that can kill in less than an hour of immersion, so Molly can keep it around the house. 🤔

My first thought is really hot water - it fits with the "Hell of Boiling Oil" theme. Fully boiling water kills humans in less than five minutes of immersion, so we might be able to use slightly lower temperatures than that.
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Go for it.:)

Temperature like current does not make something impure and also you would not be immune to the heat
 
Earth-Destroyer said:
Your not, the small god just splits themselves off into new gods. Only actual charms like ghost eating can kill the Spirit.
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Yes, but the question brought up the identity of the spirit.

Just as its only a transformation, an awakened spirit is no more enslaved than a toaster is by performing its function when used by a human.

Edit: DragonParadox, we are playing an Infernal. I don't know how to tell you, their Charms come from Hell patterns.

Is enslaving the mind of a person trying to shoot you more moral? Maybe so, but it is not moral in the absolute.

I would argue sending anyone at all to a Hell can not be moral in any event, yet we can do it.

If you just refluff everything, you drain both the flavour, and the story potential of Infernals out.

What would be temptation to use power, but it comes with a moral cost becomes "just do it, moral temptation doesnt exist in Hell born power".
 
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Alratan said:
Actually, another thought, if we're summoning a demon to possess an object, it means that Hollow Mind Possession turns into a much cheaper and easier version of:

Devil-Refining Cauldron (••••) The Exalt may craft an item suitable for habitation by a wicked spirit, and then dissolve a Bane or devil until it is ready to be poured into the prepared vessel. System: This Charm allows the character to create fetishes (see W20, page 221). The character must first craft the item that is to serve as the physical substance of the fetish, and must do so entirely by herself. Then, the Exalt uses this Charm to bind a spirit into the fetish. This may be done either with the spirit's willing cooperation, or after battering it until it has been reduced to 0 Essence and then suspending its dissolution for 24 hours by reflexively spending 1 Essence. Such a "suspended" spirit swirls about within the Exalt's anima until either bound into a fetish, or until the suspension ends, at which point the spirit finishes discorporating. To bind a spirit into a prepared vessel, the Exalt must retire to a ritual space and spend (Fetish's rating) hours and (Fetish's rating x 3) Essence binding the spirit and object together. Because of the high Essence cost of this Charm, it is most easily performed within Dragon Nests.​

As a demon possessed object is a Fetish.

Although it's totally up to DragonParadox, I think the original version of the charm may be less probelmatic.
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I mean sure it's just that they are 0 dot fetishes that can do only one thing, be AI in control of the item and they only work because the vessel is already a smart device and they are cyber devils.
 
Valkhir said:
Yes, but the question brought up the identity of the spirit.

Just as its only a transformation, an awakened spirit is no more enslaved than a toaster is by performing its function when used by a human.
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They are the spirits of objects not humans. Performing their function is the same a breathing to them. They have to preform their function, same as you need to think. They cannot not be themselves. The charm just empowers them to better preform their function.
 
I prefer DP's refluffed interpretation of the Charm, not only to avoid drama but because it fits the DF setting better. Perhaps instead of trying to get him to change his mind on that, we could focus on more immediately relevant stuff, like voting?

[X] Bring up your new powers and supplies you need for them
-[X] Ask about getting a garden tub large enough to immerse ourselves in and a couple hundred pounds of salt. "It's for a good cause!"
--[X] And if the salt idea doesn't work out, we'll be able to use it to de-ice the driveway and sidewalk next Winter.
 
[X] Bring up your new powers and supplies you need for them
-[X] Use excellency to explain them in a way that won't cause undue fear in your parents, while making sure that safety precautions are taken. You certainly don't want your siblings to accidentally take a dip in your poison bath.

Because yeah, a bathtub of poison in a house with small children is a bad idea unless ALL the precautions measures are taken, and even then it's dangerous.

DragonParadox said:
The electricity is not making the water impure so unfortunately not, dangerous impurity is the theme here
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What about electrolysis?
 
DragonParadox said:
That is a valid use of the charm and the demon would be ruthless enough to enforce it.
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This is busted, so we should absolutely do this. -3 difficulty on crafting rolls is wild.

Valkhir said:
Is Golden Years Tarnished Black moral? No.
Can Molly learn it? Yes.
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Moral uses have been suggested for it, and by my reckoning they are correct.

No exalts power is "moral" simply by virtue of its existence.

Solars might claim that, but they are filthy liars.

Earth-Destroyer said:
Only for the duration of the charm they are free to sell the information to the Yama kings once they get set back. Either by the time running out, or someone banishing them.
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This seems like tacking on a WILD downside that was never specified for no reason.

I also prefer dps interpretation. If only for Flavor.
 
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