Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
@DragonParadox Errors
Missing period.
Missing hyphen after should. Either "much" should be "must" or "fear" should be plural.
But they didn't do that, or at least there's no mention of it. If you take your assertion as correct and then fill in the blanks with whatever you like then you can manufacture all the evidence you like.
I don't understand the premise of this question.
The primordials can give arbitrary orders to the gods, which would include forcing them to move the exalted around if they had control of them, or any other action the gods could perform that might be useful and convenient to them.
If the gods could take a hand in the exaltation process that finely then the primordials would by proxy have every power they had over them. The book doesn't explicitly say they could, but it's an obvious consequence of the scenario. If the gods could be ordered to take them back then they could be ordered to stop handing them out, or to pick people the primordials wanted to have them. The gods existed to serve the needs of their makers, humans only had free will because the primordials didn't bother programming something so small with anything sophisticated from their perspective. Why would there be such an arbitrary limit on the type of command they could give?
This only makes sense if Lytek's office didn't exist until after the war, with his duties either being unnecessary to wartime operations or being performed by Autochthon who couldn't be ordered around like that.
a) We don't know the exact limits, but the purpose of the gods is to be tools. The assumption should be more and not less control.
b) This is a good point, and probably falls under c, but I doubt the primordials trusted each other enough to let them fully shut off each other's control. Which seems substantiated by the fact that them being given some orders was still a concern.
d) This comes down to a disagreement over who can be heroic again. Heroic in this context exclusively means greatness, and even if it didn't being ideologically aligned with the primordials doesn't necessarily equate to being evil. "The creators of the world have the divine right to rule it, and any lesser hands at the wheel would screw it up for everyone" is an unpleasant opinion, but it's not any more unusual than royalists existing in a revolution against a monarchy.
You can't even really say they're wholly wrong, given that the exalted were actually fuck ups in the end. I'd personally still go for the rebellion because the primordials were mostly assholes, but you can't gatekeep greatness on the basis of conformity.
That one I have nothing for. Seems like an obvious plot hole, because in a battle to the death there's no amount of "their paradigms are just weird" that I can accept would stop anything and everything being tried before a thinking being would accept death or being turned inside out and sown up inside its own ass. Especially the obvious stuff; if anyone here can think of it in an afternoon then every possible permutation of it should have been tried and discarded in the war.
They're inside a vast majority of the active defenses, that's a significant advantage. Maybe they don't have as much to work with as an admin would, but a user account is significantly more useful as a starting point.
All this demonstrates is that the primordials had to rely on turncoats instead of redirecting solar minions.
That's a significant enough change in the basic dynamic of the exalted I think it should have been mentioned, but overall I'd call this point a wash because we're both appealing to assumptions on what they would've done.
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My overall point here is that for things to hang together in general an outsider trying to fuck with an exaltation should at minimum face significant opposition to the point that it's effectively impossible. The blank spaces should be filled in with competence instead of blistering idiocy, applied with effectively infinite resources and unimaginable amounts of time.
Everything anyone could imagine and contrive to happen should have been tried, with only the routes we see happen in canon working to any degree.
"This One Neat Trick Wins Solar Servants Every Time; Incarnae Hate It" shouldn't be allowed.
Vote closed.
The Gods by their creation where bound to the Primordials. And by all accounts their control was near total when it came to commanding the gods within their job. The only thing is the gods are also bound by their nature, even a Primordials cannot order Saturn to tell a secret, it's simple not something Saturn can do.
Arc 13 Post 28: Whispers in Ash
Whispers in Ash
7th of February 2007 A.D.
With Harry at your side you meander west as the tunnels quickly give way to arches of stone that reveal patches of sky then to a petrified wood quiet and still, inhabited only by a tribe of slate grey serpents that you discover only thanks to Harry just as you are about to use one of them as a handhold to get a better look up ahead. It opens sulfurous eyes bright as lanterns among a rain of ash, 'alchemist' it names you and by its twisting coils shows you honor. Still it would have bitten you for that is simply its nature you know, yet you cannot help but be charmed by its listing of local alchemical supplies 'so that you would not have to go so far afield for answers, for wisdom'. You bow and give thanks, where else could once have learned that rubber scraped off hot concrete can be used in potions to ward off fever.
"You are just going to take a strange snake's word for something? Didn't your parents teach you about stranger danger?" Harry asks, the smile hiding serious concern.
"There's no way I could make something to poison myself by accident and I'm not sure I could do it on purpose either," you shrug.
The silence returns then, under the blanketing ash, not as easy as before though. "What?"
"You really are built different," Harry finally says, not looking at you.
"So you just compared me to Mab in your head then?" you let out a giggle. "I know I shouldn't, but I'm a tiny bit flattered."
Still quiet on the Harry front.
"Maeve?" you guess, still smiling. While you might not approve of Maeve's... everything, you have to admit she has style.
"Ayup," he looks around, maybe for something to distract with. Unluckily for him the present vista is the most boring shade outside of some of those 'modern apartments' you saw last week. "Reminded me of the first time my teacher brought me into the Nevernever as well. You just broke rules one through three: If something looks at you like you're lunch keep walking, don't stop to chat until you can tell how beasties are around you and don't take unsolicited advice."
Tapping your chin, because it looks cool not because you need it, you posit: "Sounds to me like wizards don't know their neighbors very well, on the magic side as much as the mundane."
"If they wanted visitors they shouldn't live in a place that's like if the Cretan Labyrinth was built by M.C. Escher," he counters as, seemingly to further illustrate his point he reaches for the door of the cast iron industrial refrigerator half buried in the ash and scorched black that is your next transition point.
"Ever wonder how it came to that? Before the Accords, before the modern Fey Courts and the White Council. The worlds used to be a lot closer and people, not just magicians, but kings, heroes and tricksters used to walk between them. What changed?"
"People just didn't want to deal with all this nonsense, so they stopped poking at it," he answers slowly. "I think the spread of Christianity had something to do with it. You're not supposed to test the big G..."
What in the name of... You cannot help yourself, you laugh. "Big G? Harry are you trying to rap?"
"Sorry force of habit, don't name powers you don't want looking your way," he mumbles.
"Is there anything in particular you don't want God to see?" The question's lighthearted, but the quiet that follows it is not. And then it hits you, the other thing Maeve is besides stylish and a bitch, hot enough to make you doubt her title.
Some part of arguing with talking bees and talking snakes had done what hunting necromancers and warlocks, dealing with mad vampires and Nazi berserkers had not done, gotten Harry to think of you as an adult. Or maybe those other things had done it as well, but you'd just been too busy to notice with all the mortal peril.
Alas your memory is still good in other matters, Tiffany's warning two months ago... Had it really only been two months? It seems more like an age. You still want Harry, in fact you are quite sure that if you put it to a vote every facet of you wants him, if anything his problems had only multiplied, but he's with Tiffany now, it's not hard to tell. Granted ethics have as much of a hold on her as the instruction to work inside the lines of a coloring book, but Harry is not like that.
Some portion of him is, Usum offers rational as ever, else the Lady Broken Mirror could not have arisen from his mind and soul.
What do you do?
[] Walk along, see where this goes
[] Sigh... time to remove temptation, at least you can make yourself feel better by punching a fire monster in the face
[] Write in
OOC: Not a good day to be Harry Dresden rolling subterfuge dice.
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We can go over it again and again, but I think that I demonstrated enough textual evidence to show that the attempt of directing an exaltation to a specific person via destiny manipulation (VEE), splendors, Ancient Sorcery, and other associated means is not doomed to failure. It might not be easy - I never indicated it would be, but the position of "it can't be done and is doomed to turn out for the worst" is wrong.
frozenchicken
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[X] Sigh... time to remove temptation, at least you can make yourself feel better by punching a fire monster in the face
I think of the idea of adjusting the likelihood of Exaltation is like betting on a fair horse-race: You can make your odds good by betting on the favourite, but in the end it'll be the horse that does the racing.
Edit: To be clear, I am being analogistic when I say you're limited to choice of bets. The list of things you can do that would alter likelihoods might be extensive indeed. I'm just trying to make the point about the horse being the ultimate point of failure.
I think of the idea of adjusting the likelihood of Exaltation is like betting on a fair horse-race: You can make your odds good by betting on the favourite, but in the end it'll be the horse that does the racing.
Edit: To be clear, I am being analogistic when I say you're limited to choice of bets. The list of things you can do that would alter likelihoods might be extensive indeed. I'm just trying to make the point about the horse being the ultimate point of failure.
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[X] Sigh... time to remove temptation, at least you can make yourself feel better by punching a fire monster in the face
Yeah, would prefer to avoid this.
It'd be neat to trade for reagents or just buy from another alchemist to save time. If it's amiable then a minor local to let our sorcerers practice trading with would be helpful even if it doesn't have anything of use to us directly.
To be fair, they're a lot more vulnerable to the consequences of their actions. Wizards are all about knowing exactly what they're doing at all times. When they have information overmatch they're some of the scariest opponents you can have, when they're uncertain or ignorant they have a tendency to meet unusually unpleasant fates. Being an exalt insulates from a lot of that.
Yeah, would prefer to avoid this.
Just out of curiosity did we get anything material out of this exchange? Discounts on recipes, a tutor or vendor alchemical stuff, or something like a source of hirelings?
It'd be neat to trade for reagents or just buy from another alchemist to save time. If it's amiable then a minor local to let our sorcerers practice trading with would be helpful even if it doesn't have anything of use to us directly.
To be fair, they're a lot more vulnerable to the consequences of their actions. Wizards are all about knowing exactly what they're doing at all times. When they have information overmatch they're some of the scariest opponents you can have, when they're uncertain or ignorant they have a tendency to meet unusually unpleasant fates. Being an exalt insulates from a lot of that.
If something like VEE could do it then the primordials would have been able to do it too. To my eye there needs to be a reason we can do something that they couldn't, even if the gods could with their biased exaltations and that didn't go bad in all the obvious ways we're not Lytek or Luna.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[x] Walk along, see where this goes
With just one success you got a contact that knows a bit of alchemy.
Okay I get that the primordials are powerful but they could not actually command the Incarna as much as you think they could. Sol is the creation of two of the primordials the closest thing at the Ephemeral Tyrant had to a son made to untiringly and unflinchingly and unfailingly push back the infinite tide of Chaos in all directions across endless edges of creation forever. The primordials were powerful by themselves and they're even stronger together the unconquered son Created as a Counterpoint to one (Dragonshadow) and a direct creation of one who wouldn't know restraint if it bit him on the face (Theion) means that his power is literally on the level of a primordial he has Essence 10 the literal same Essence as a primordial he has perfect defenses against violating his motivations. All of the primordials influence charms also work off of being stronger than the person they're using them on and that fails immediately both because he has perfect defenses and is not weaker than any of them.
Luna is made in a similar manner by the Divine Ignition and the Dragon Beyond The World. The Impossible made real from the dreams and nightmares of two primordials able to pull the infinite tide of the wyld as well as push it to enter and leave the Beyond at will. Made as a direct Counterpoint to the realized Perfection of the Unconquered Sun Which if there were ever two deities that were even more lacking in Restraint then the ephemeral Tyrant and the Ebon dragon it is Miss let there be light and I was born before let there be light even though I was defined by let there be light. Appropriately she also has perfect defenses against anything that she feels like including the ability to just shapeshift away intimacies and motivations and also possesses Essence 10.
The maidens of Fate Essence 10 deities that super inducted themselves backwards in time from a point where they possibly existed so it's really confusing on whether or not they actually are forced to listen to the primordials or not actually harm them at all considering Luna is the one who Shepherds them into the universe not one of the primordials. None of the primordials know who made them they bear the intelligent design philosophy of the Gods and the touch of the primordials but that's not particularly helpful for discovering who made them and considering they were in love with Sol and Luna on existence and seem to have propagated themselves into existence via time shenanigans really doubtful they actually are forced to listen the primordials whatsoever.
The gods are not first Circle demons that the primordials can just treat as tools that live and ambulate they are slaves free willed slaves at that they can lie cheat and trick just as well with the best of them and none of the primordials actually have any defenses against them doing that other than would it be in theme for me to be able to tell that this person is lying. Which considering a lot of them don't really have themes that are completely insulated towards that end they are forced to rely on the non-existent skill they have at detecting falsehood.
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- Pronouns
- She/Her
Comma before only helps the flow.
I think this is meant to be an and, but I'm not sure.
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[x] Walk along, see where this goes
Come on people, let Molly live a little instead of her endless cascade of horrors to put down, it's not like this has to be forever, or even longer than like, 1 date, but she's going to hate herself if she doesn't even *try* at least a bit with him.
I mean, I doubt they would work out long term, Harry is much too… caveman mentality to be very comfortable with dating an ascending god Queen for long, but still. Let her get it out of her System
Come on people, let Molly live a little instead of her endless cascade of horrors to put down, it's not like this has to be forever, or even longer than like, 1 date, but she's going to hate herself if she doesn't even *try* at least a bit with him.
I mean, I doubt they would work out long term, Harry is much too… caveman mentality to be very comfortable with dating an ascending god Queen for long, but still. Let her get it out of her System
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frozenchicken
Does not have a custom title.
Keep in mind that the Primordials may have had infinite power in their own ways, but were limited in far more ways than even mortals. The Primordials could not act beyond their themes, limits and tyrannies. The Act of Exaltation requires a human to become a Hero, to go beyond their limits and position whilst acting in a manner that is 'Virtuous'. The act of defying the Primordials is inherently Heroic, and by simple virtue of the fact that the Primordials saw it as their place and nature to dominate humans meant that they would have naturally winnowed out a great majority of those who would have had the capability. It would have been a case of going "Oh, I've heard chickens can fly? Okay, here's my coop full of chickens with clipped wings. Let's see if they can fly. Hmm, doesn't look like it."
That's not to say it would have been tautologically impossible-except for the Ebon Dragon, whose nature is utterly anathema to all concept of Heroism. The only Exaltations that occured around TED would have been Heroes rising up specifically to face him.
- Location
- Estonia
[X] Sigh... time to remove temptation, at least you can make yourself feel better by punching a fire monster in the face
I think for some people it's precisely the fact that it won't actually lead to anything even casual, unless they figure out some poly solution that Dresden would accept. And trying to do that right immediately after Harry seems to have just realized that Molly is an adult woman is probably rushing into jumping the gun and missing the shot.
I think for some people it's precisely the fact that it won't actually lead to anything even casual, unless they figure out some poly solution that Dresden would accept. And trying to do that right immediately after Harry seems to have just realized that Molly is an adult woman is probably rushing into jumping the gun and missing the shot.
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