Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
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- Crossover Fantasy
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Who is Sophia again?
One of Molly's splinters from that one gale charm.
Song of Perennial Hours Intrinsically Ascending
Yeah, I also expect / think that there's a sidereal shard with Harry's name written on it trapped somewhere. There are many reasons I keep pushing to try and study astrology, and this is one of them.
So what are they offering the spirits in exchange here? Is it "just" good spirit drugs and whatever benefits they get from a little light worship or are they performing material favors for the spirits of their gaming consoles?
Jesus Christ. A wolf large enough to look 6'9" Harry in the eye would seem at home hunting cars on the freeway.
They're looking to get Arthur back specifically so he can perform his grand destiny. They aren't the retiring sort in any case, they'll be a small faction of heavy hitters at very least.
My general point is that going halfway has all the risks and costs of going the rest of the way to actively working with them to fill their goals, but offers less control of the outcome. Picking a firm direction is better than waffling.
Group projects change the equation. A lot of mortals all working together can do amazing things. An exalt has serious advantages and would probably succeed if they play it smart, but it wouldn't be trivial.
ExWoD exalts are nerfed in a lot of ways. We explicitly can't just brainwash our way to power with godly social rolls. It was shot down early in the quest and that hasn't changed.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
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The thing about Sidereal is that Harry could have been interacting with them for years with them taking no effort to be subtle and Harry still might not remember them. Sidereal can be incredibly creepy. They make most Doctor Who enemies seem tame.
Worship, basically they will be investing a portion of their willpower into making the spirits more comfortable and powerful each day and in exchange they are taught gifts which means that it is not technically sponsored magic, it's more like being a techno-shaman.
That is the Gift that can turn you into a dragon so yeah very much so.
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
I mean becoming a Sidereal and figuring out their powers/dealing with Arcane Fate
Ngl, I do wonder why Arcane Fate survived the passage of Ages when everything else, like the Great Curse and the Infernals shackles to the Yozi rotted away with time.
Because it makes the Exaltation better able to serve its purpose and so was preserved. The shackles of the Infernals were always a tenuous improvisation.
For the group part the exalted can form or Co-op their own groups, lead it better then any mortal, on top of buffing them with their charms.
It a time commitment to be sure but fully possible for any exalted with just their excellency, let alone other potential charms. An exalted could show up at a local town hall put forward ideas that solve local issues, drum up support for local projects. Trade that up for a city council seat, established a wildly popular reputation as both having excellent ideas, and being able to get them realized in an incredibly short amount of time. In a few months announce running for senate, or some such.
It not something you can stop an exalted short of taking away their excellency, it a base function of any merit based system that the most capable rise to the top, and by definition that is the exalted. Exalted would by their nature would have, better fund raising, better speeches, better ideas, better advertising, more able to get their ideas pushed thou red tape, better at convincing those already in power to support them, and most importantly better at convincing people to vote for them, etc. Would it happen all at once course not, but in the longer term of months and years the exalted will surpass any mortal opposition just on their excellency alone.
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There's literal mechanics for high-end Mages and powerful supernaturals to turn off Exalted Charms in ExWod; we see Iku-Turso do it to us during our fight when it turned off our armor charm.
I suspect the Crown has the same status as the Sight, in that the White God does not interfere in stuff like that for ideological reasons. But Im reasonably sure they can simply block it from seeing through some defense or shut it down before it activates, just like the angel in Ghost Story shut down Harry's Sight.
This is the exact kind of high-handed attitude that got the original Infernal shards buried under Yomi Wan in ExWoD.
We dont get to dictate terms to the rest of the setting.
Any Celestial Exalt is a big fish in the Dresdenverse.
But this is a big pond, and we are by no means the biggest fish in it, let alone the only fish.
'Ware hubris.
Loki in the Dresden Files is still suffering his mythological fate IIRC Butcher correctly.
Hades is more or less explicit about what the punishments he has cooking for people are; see what he did to Sisyphus, and remember that Sisyphus is STILL THERE.
Also?
These guys are mortals. They can lie. They can dissemble and change their minds and betray.
There's a reason I keep coming back to their credibility or lack thereof.
Let's be clear.
Im asserting Creator deity supremacy in a setting where Creator deity supremacy is a fundamental principle of the setting.
Fundamental setting elements of the Dresdenverse setting, from the Swords to the angels keeping Lucifer and his boys in check, to the White God telling all the other pantheons to either put themselves fully in the game or to fuck off, are reliant on the presence of a single, overpowering setting authority that sets rules and makes them stick.
You specifically made this even more explicit when you established the existence of multiple foci of extraterrestrial life, suggesting that much the same thing thats happening on Earth is happening in other parts of the universe with sapient life.
As for power levels? Infernals would canonically get bodied by Yama Kings in solo duels, and YKs are by no means the biggest fish in this AU. Its literally there in the book where they discuss shit like Yama King Investments for Exalts, and how a YK can crack an Exaltation open to get more performance out of it.
Even back in Creation, Exalts were not the biggest fish.
No single Exalt ever successfully picked a fight with Ligier the Green Sun, for example, and there were literal elder Exalts running around in the late First Age. And its not like they didnt try.
Arthur wanted to live.
They couldnt give him that. Thats a very different thing from Arthur wanted to be resurrected like the Christ.
The Fae appear to have been very explicit about this. His fate was done.
Furthermore, ExWoD DBs are very mortal, with a lifespan measured in a couple centuries; they used to live beyond 300 years, but now are closer to 200-250 years. Less than wizard lifespans.
If Arthur Pendragon is a Deeb, he has a distinctly limited shelf life. Frankly, so do these guys.
Its quite likely that they all suffer a Quintus Cassius-style accelerated aging as time begins to catch up with them once they leave the Spirit World for the real world.
Titania was not the Queen he dealt with; she came to office centuries later. Furthermore, there was no bargain; he called in a favor, and they did it to the best of their ability . These gentlemen, while his associates, are not his heirs. They dont get to act in his name, and they have no formal claim to represent themselves to the Fae as such.
Story-wise, I think people who fail to heed the words of Gandalf with regards to Gollum are at best fools.
And in ExWoD, Infernal Exaltations would very much fall into the category of ancient evils.
1)MY guiding principle is "First, do no harm."
And I find votes to upset the setting on principle to be immensely irritating when they pay little attention to the collateral effects of their decisions.
2)It is very much OOC.
Molly is the daughter of a Knight, and has had a crash course in supernatural politics. Enough to understand that shit isnt as simple as it immediately seems. Just the circumstances around the start of the Vampire War demonstrate that.
Furthermore, she is a teenager who damaged her best friend and then-boyfriend because she immediately tried to apply Awesome Cosmic Power(TM) to an obvious problem.
She has an intimate understanding of just how easy it is to fuck things and people up beyond hope of repair.
3)Molly is a Catholic.
She understands that the Denarians are backed by a Fallen archangel and the full might of his legions in the true Hell, the one of which the Thousand Hells are but a pale mockery.
She remembers that the archangel Uriel specifically made time to warn her about the Fallen and getting cute with the Coins.
I dont think I am.
I dont trust these people. They have broken their solemn word before, and even in negotiations right now they have done their best to mislead. I would not want these guys at my back or in a position to acquire my secrets, nor would I like to have to vouch for them; I'd trust the Bone Flower vampire more.
And they are sufficiently mortal that they can choose to lie without magical consequence whatsoever.
They dont even have to worry about their power weakening, the way wizards do if they lie on their Power too many times.
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And no, its not a lie.
There is no guarantee that the Cauldron of Rebirth could bring him back, just like it could not bring back the goddess that they killed, even with Arawn right there.
Nor is there any guarantee that something else wont simply jack the body instead. Corpsetaker did it to Lydia, and she was literally in her own body at the time. And then there's the various Outsiders about.
It smells like bait.
To address your other points:
-Splendors have a mechanism for a 1-Up. Not for resurrecting a long-dead person.
-There is a 5-dot Solar resurrection charm for raising people who died within (Essence) days, but even that comes with all sorts of caveats: you only get one try at it per person, supernatural creatures may or may not come back with their powers (DBs might, Celestial Exalts are always mortal) and if the Solar using the charm botches twice in a story they die.
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Even the mythology of the Cauldron of Rebirth was that it was used to resurrect the freshly dead.
Pair Dadeni - Wikipedia
Pendragon has been dead for more than fifteen hundred years. It would not work for him.
Remember, if this was true, we'd be able to chuck a shitton of people into it and bring them back. Every single wizard and Warden that has died in the Vampire War thus far. Simon Petrovich and the Archangelsk Brute Squad. Maggie LeFay and Malcolm Dresden. McCoy's assassinated wife. People who have died much more recently than the first millenium AD.
Hell, the Thule Society would be able to bring back Kemmler, or any of his dead acolytes.
Something like that would be a magical superweapon.
The moment Arawn left this place for Winter, murderhobos from multiple factions would have been here looking for it, and the remaining hounds wouldnt have been able to stop them in their weakened state.
That noone has suggests that every other supernatural faction is either broadly incompetent, or it really isnt anywhere as broadly applicable as the Three Musketeers here have been led to believe.
And I prefer to assume that everyone else isnt stupid.
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BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Yeah your jumping to conclusions here. Camelot is dead it's been 1500 years. They may try to bring it about again by conquering Britain or something along those lines but that's all speculation right now. The only motive we're aware of right now is the Knights intent to steal yet another divine artifact to try and bring Arthur back. Better to not speak as if it's undisputable fact what they'd do after getting a handle on modernity and the overall status of the planet.
That's good general advise to put out there I guess.
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I disagree, mostly because much of the WG's power-establishment comes from WoGs or side-stories that really don't have to exist in this fusion-setting.
And also, no single Exalt beat Ligier maybe, but the Exalts as a whole definitely beat him, or else Malfeas wouldn't have surrendered.
The Balrog is not Gollum, to think back on the example of Iku-Tursko.
Though someone earlier already commented that reformation is also an option, and I agree with that.
As for Gollum himself, I'm not a fan of that storyline. He ultimately failed to find any redemption, or the strength to leave the Ring behind.
He died in an important way, but that was literally God laying a finger on the scale.
As a person he still deserved death, that he happened to be plot-important later doesn't change that.
Edit: Thematic and narratively his death mattered, but in practical terms Frodo stumbling over a rock and dropping the Ring into the fire would have had the same effect.
I disagree.
Bring out the chainsaw.
She wields a Power made to truly kill greater things than the Fallen, even Lucifer.
She may be Christian, but she is a Christian who knows that with time and allies she can fistfight the devil and win for good.
That must influence the perspective.
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If the alternative is shrugging and saying "yeah, ok, eternal torture is just how things are being done here, nothing to do about it"? F*ck that. work towards changing it, don't accept it as normal or ok. Which you were doing. You were saying, specifcally "this punishment is normal and ok, and nothing to recoil from, because these are the standards of the community". We are not obligated to accept such standards, even if in many cases we cannot (yet) do anything about such practices. This is as much a question of morality as practicality, and right now there's no one opposing us here. We would not be in breach of anything for ending their torture. No one is in any position to object. So, this is purely a question of internal morality.
Aliens existing in no way establishes that similar events are happening with them. Earth, moreover, this specific version of Earth, being the center of the universe has been established by Word of Jim:
And no, you are asserting supremacy of White God over Primordials and the like, and supremacy of Dresdenverse over Creation cosmology. Baselessly, as far as I can see.
You. Are. Inventing. This. We have no reason to doubt that it could have brought him back. Arawn, and Arawn's queen didn't doubt that it could have brought him back. Arawn's wife's divination didn't doubt that it could have brought Arthur back.
No it doesn't, you are inventing ridiculous problems with no basis at all.
Summer is preserving Arthur, he almost certainly doesn't count as "long-dead". That's the whole point of "taken to Avalon, to sleep until he returns in the hour of greatest need". Tiffany can get Lore of Awakening 5, which does this:
We have CCG, and Arthur's body as a focus - locating his soul is not an issue. Retrieving it might be, but I think it's entirely manageable and might not even be a problem.
The whole White God vs Primordial conversation is very spoiler laden, but I will say this much about the Primordials compared to every power in Dresdenverse, even something as powerful as an Archangel or Lucifer. A primordial is a set of self reinforcing symbols and elements in and of themselves that do not require the foundations of Creation to exist. It is unpleasant for them to exist within the chaos of the Wyld, but it is entirely manageable, they do not need external order to survive. Creation for them was a fortress, not a space station.
I'm not sure a dragonblooded Arthur, with all the EXP he had, would have any trouble becoming a prime minister of Britain after 5 to 10 years in politics. The biggest hurdle would be arranging ironclad identification and all the bells and whistles needed to count as a proper citizen.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
I said nothing as to his capabilities. I was referring to motive. All we have right now is what the Crown showed us so it's a good idea not to say Arthur or his Knights will do X.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Fixed, thanks. The issue was not words, but punctuation.
Creator deity supremacy is a thing... in canon Dresden file.
This is not, and has never been, canon Dresden file.
This argument is invalid.
BoredMan
Maintaining the Agenda is our top priority
Ah.."because of the small" what then? What is he saying is small?
Meant to be smell, fixed.
*shrug*
Depends on which cosmology you are looking at.
Reconciling the Ages of Creation and the Ages of the Kuejin is probably a fair bit of work.
^^^
I know it, you know it, but these guys wont let it be.
And in not doing so, they have caused significant damage to others. And can potentially cause more.
COMMENTARY
Lol. This is hilarious. Im guessing that the Spirit of Gaia Gift was critical to getting the spirits to approach and negotiate.
Worth noting that among the Rank 1 Gifts available to Homids and Glass Walkers are Apecraft's Blessings(DC adjuster for tools), Persuasion(social DC adjuster) and Mother's Touch(healing).
Rank 2 is where some of the good entry-level stuff is, and they still only have bashing soak, but just picking the 3x Gifts that a Garou gets at chargen makes them significantly more dangerous as a local faction.
Especially as they have teamwork.
Looks Harry in the eyes? Harry's 6 foot 9 inches.
Thats a rhino-sized wolf, something out of mythology. Gonna be north of a ton in weight.
It speaks to everyone's comfort level that something that size doesnt make people freak out.
Gonna note that while the Alphas do turn into wolves, their type of werewolf dont appear to have lupine instincts or urges pushing them. Hexenwulfen and lycanthropes both do.
The Alphas dont.
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Hidden Dragonmage.
The stealth sorcerer/shaman clone build that I wrote up. The one with the shapeshifter gift that can turn herself into a dragon.
Most of the setting's power establishment is done in-story.
When we say Uriel can blow up galaxies, we have explicit IC confirmation from the dude himself in Skin Game.
Furthermore?
We are explicitly drawing on both side-stories and WoG facts in this AU anyway; thats why Molly got the offer to learn soulfire from Odin, because Butcher explicitly said that Odin knows it. And the Thule Society is from a Fistful of Warlocks.
Not sure why you are picking these nits anyway; the short stories are explicitly canon.
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No Exalt ever beat Ligier according to his writeup during the War, and after the War multiple Solars tried their luck and failed.
In part because they wanted to loot his Sword.
Malfeas didnt surrender because of a military defeat either.
Its worth remembering that the Aftershock War was ONE optimized Primordial vs the Solar Deliberative and the entirety of First Age Creation, and the solo Primordial did a good job of it.
The Balrog was a Maia, an angel from before time began.
The vast majority of them died at the hands of the army of the Valar, or very occasionally, at the hands of a handful of First Age Noldor. Nobody sealed a Balrog; the one in Mordor ran away and hid.
This is not really the place for LOTR commentary.
But the point of Gollum was not even the scene in Orodruin. Without Gollum, Sam and Frodo would never have made it as far as the gates of Mordor, let alone the pass over Minas Ithil.
The people who spared his life each time saved their own in doing so.
We have a fundamental difference of opinion.
Especially about how someone who lives in the setting, and whose stuff and family and friends are here would approach issues with the risk of collateral damage.
She wields a power that was made to kill Primordials while at the head of an army of other Exalts and minions.
The Fallen are.....significantly greater actors in scope than Primordials.
Which is why the vast majority are bound in Hell, and the ones in the Coins are even more tightly restricted, and have angels watching their every move, and Swords on the planet.
I am pretty sure an unbound Anduriel or Imariel is off the power scale for the setting.
Lucifer sure as fuck is.
Which is why they arent appearing in this story as antagonists.
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She knows no such thing.
She explicitly had an archangel come to warn her about taking a Coin into Sanctuary.
I am genuinely apprehensive that a lot of ppl arent treating the natives with the caution and gravitas they deserve.
That shit gets people killed.