Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[BoredMan]

Charisma is still not mind control.

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You seem to be hyping up Exalted abilities when it suits you then downplay them when it doesn't considering the talk we had earlier. Operating under the assumption that Arthur is one I wouldn't put it past him to have multiple charms specifically to help with ruling and taking control over foreign lands. If religious arguments don't win him votes I don't see why he wouldn't simply change tactics.

 

[Iron Roby]

Charisma that isn't actually mind control it cannot be more effective than 24/7 advertising not to mention the fact that people when they have the ability to record your speeches can dissect and find out everything that's wrong with them and it doesn't matter how charismatic you are in the moment when everyone has played by play Playback to why you're wrong.

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While I agree Charisma isn't mind control, I have to completely disagree that it isn't more effective than 24/7 advertising. Advertising with a lot of funding behind it is just trying to blindly emulated something like Charisma with saturation attacks. Super charisma does not rely on saturation. It relies on making such an impression, even just once, that a voter is going to go "now this is someone I want to vote for" and remember that until the voting day.

Also, I have no doubt that some political journalists will have no issues dissecting his speeches and critiquing them to a politically interested and active audience. But your average voter just won't care about that.

No amount of I have a dream will actually work unless you have something that's inspiring if you run on a deeply unpopular platform no amount of legendary speech writing will actually help you.

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Why would he run a deeply unpopular platform, though, after he has presumably learned about the modern world?

Sure, appealing to billionaire charity might not be plausible, but how about "let's tax the hell out of billionaires"? Arthur might advocate it cause he would dislike usury and wealthy merchants being the most powerful people of the country, but it's not like things like that couldn't be justified with stuff that would appeal to modern people.

And that's just one hypothetical example.

 

[Degorium]

You seem to be hyping up Exalted abilities when it suits you then downplay them when it doesn't considering the talk we had earlier. Operating under the assumption that Arthur is one I wouldn't put it past him to have multiple charms specifically to help with ruling and taking control over foreign lands. If religious arguments don't win him votes I don't see why he wouldn't simply change tactics.

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No I tried to be accurate with what I say. Exalted have mental influence charms that are outright in mind control that ignore people having intimacies and motivations Charisma is not that. The I Have a Dream speech didn't make America a socialist non-racist Paradise if you didn't notice to the point people are still revising the meaning of the speech to this day. If he changes platform or he gets with the times then he's just actually playing the system correctly which is fine but that's not just having super Charisma that's being a good politician and leader. To be honest if he has an Excellency in Law in Politics and Expression then he's literally a golden politician who can actually play a system to the maximum of his abilities but that's all more than just having more dice in Charisma. But to pretend that Charisma could carry him all the way to the finish line is just a false.

 

[Degorium]

While I agree Charisma isn't mind control, I have to completely disagree that it isn't more effective than 24/7 advertising. Advertising with a lot of funding behind it is just trying to blindly emulated something like Charisma with saturation attacks. Super charisma does not rely on saturation. It relies on making such an impression, even just once, that a voter is going to go "now this is someone I want to vote for" and remember that until the voting day.

Also, I have no doubt that some political journalists will have no issues dissecting his speeches and critiquing them to a politically interested and active audience. But your average voter just won't care about that.



Why would he run a deeply unpopular platform, though, after he has presumably learned about the modern world?

Sure, appealing to billionaire charity might not be plausible, but how about "let's tax the hell out of billionaires"? Arthur might advocate it cause he would dislike usury and wealthy merchants being the most powerful people of the country, but it's not like things like that couldn't be justified with stuff that would appeal to modern people.

And that's just one hypothetical example.

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I'm unsure of what standard people are holding Arthur to is he a conquering Barbarian or is he just someone who's going to try and get into power through legitimate means. Is he a stagnant Christian despot or is he someone who can actually finagle and get with the times. The standard seems to change every time anyone says anything about him but I was mainly focusing on the fact that Charisma alone isn't going to carry him over the finish line.

 

[Iron Roby]

if he has an Excellency in Law in Politics and Expression

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That's the assumption I have been making, when talking about a "social exalt". My bad. I should have specified "social and political exalt". We know from the example of Molly, that those two are not necessarily the same build.

I'm unsure of what standard people are holding Arthur to is he a conquering Barbarian or is he just someone who's going to try and get into power through legitimate means. Is he a stagnant Christian despot or is he someone who can actually finagle and get with the times.

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That's just my guess, but I would assume he is someone who would be capable of adapting, if they chose to do so. The choice would depend on the circumstances and the immediate aftermath of his revival.

 

[BoredMan]

But to pretend that Charisma could carry him all the way to the finish line is just a false.

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When EarthDestroyer said that charisma was an "autowin" I'm pretty sure he didn't mean absent of literally everything else a politician needs to be successful. At least that's not how I read it because that wouldn't any sense.

I'm unsure of what standard people are holding Arthur to is he a conquering Barbarian or is he just someone who's going to try and get into power through legitimate means.

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We don't know what he is. We haven't talked to him nor did the thread decide to do independent investigation earlier. He could go the 'conquering warlord barbarian' route or he could try adapting to the times to game the current systems using Exalted power.

I'm not holding him to any particular standard right now because everyone here is ignorant on this version of him. Aside from some generally safe assumptions of course, like that the previous Exalted king would very likely have politically useful charms of some form.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

Social attack care about this subject, Social attack do something about this subject, you dislike, repeat.

Their a reason the rule for an exalted convincing a mortal/town/city/nation of something given a few months for an exalted to work, is the Exalted succeeds no rolls needed. You don't need anything more then an excellency against mortals if you have time, the law of averages means the exalted wins all extended contests.

 

[BoredMan]

Social attack care about this subject, Social attack do something about this subject, you dislike, repeat.

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Nevermind, he actually was saying that. Oops.

 

[Vanguard_D]

[X] Plan Layers of Deception

 

[uju32]

Will catch up on what I missed in time.

Of Relic and Rebels​

4rd of February 2007 A.D.

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COMMENTARY
Lys HalfTongue pretty evidently does not negotiate in good faith.
That means that we are obliged to limit as much as possible what we tell him or allow him to infer. And having tried to steal one divine artifact and failed catastrophically, planning to steal a second divine artifact says that he very much does not appear to learn.

I think we are getting an idea of why noone bothered to try to intercede on his behalf in the last fifteen hundred years.
Releasing him is going to cause Trouble.



The Shroud of Turin has no healing powers in the Dresdenverse. At least, the one in Italy has no healing powers.
Its canon that its been tried; Marcone had it stolen in order to try to use it to heal Amanda Beckitt, Helen Beckitt's daughter. It didnt work. If it didnt work for healing a child, it sure as fuck isnt resurrecting a dead dude.

However, it does have serious mystical significance.
Nicodemus Archleone stole it from Marcone's contractors and used it to empower a magical ritual to start a pandemic and wipe out Chicago; stopping that was the entire plot of Death Masks.

Lash knows this. She woke up in Dresden's head at the end of Death Masks, when all of this happened.
Molly herself should remember this from listening at doors at the time, because that was when Shiro died, and Dresden spent the week recovering in the Carpenter home.

Letting some fucking monomaniacal demigod risk the lives of millions of people because he refuses to accept that death is something that happens to all mortals is frankly unacceptable to me.
As is baiting a trap with the equivalent of a mystical nuclear weapon core. We arent tough enough to assume that we can keep the Denarians from snatching it.



Furthermore? Nobody in all of this mess has explained why Arthur deserves a second life; its just been assumed.
Millions of people die every day. Millions of children die every day without getting an opportunity to even live a fraction of their natural allotment.

Arthur Pendragon in this universe lived a full life and died making his own decisions, and these guys have already committed felony murder in the attempt to resurrect him.
The wise would take a fucking hint.

---

Huh, I guess part of the whole Shroud of Turin plot line did get thrown out with Tiffany helping that girl out.

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The Shroud of Turin plot line happened back in Death Masks, the book where Shiro died.
Molly was 13-14 at the time.

Just as a reminder in Dresden Files that is not the real Shroud of Turin. The real one is in Hades' vault.

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Its still sufficiently mystically potent to allow Nicodemus to use it to start a magic epidemic ritual that would have killed Chicago and a good chunk of the Midwest.
Its essentially the core of a magic nuke.

Almost like someone was trying to hide it from Anduriel...

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Pretty sure he knows where it is hidden, and always has.
He just didnt need it, or have the force to get through the defenses.
Unless there's a bunch of dumbfuck demigods who can be manipulated into running most of the risks.....

 

[DragonParadox]

Lash knows this. She woke up in Dresden's head at the end of Death Masks, when all of this happened.
Molly herself should remember this from listening at doors at the time, because that was when Shiro died, and Dresden spent the week recovering in the Carpenter home.

Letting some fucking monomaniacal demigod risk the lives of millions of people because he refuses to accept that death is something that happens to all mortals is frankly unacceptable to me.
As is baiting a trap with the equivalent of a mystical nuclear weapon core. We arent tough enough to assume that we can keep the Denarians from snatching it.

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If you want a trap that works on the Order of the Blackened Denarius it pretty much has to be a magical nuclear core. Molly gets the sense Lash isn't planning to chip at them. she wants to cripple them, remove them from play for at least an age of the world. Then she will feel safe/be safe. Remember this is a relatively humane aspect of a Fallen Angel... she is still an aspect of a Fallen Angel. Her sense of morality is a lot more about Harry, Molly and even Lydia than it is most of mankind, if they are willing to risk it she in on the wager against fate.

 

[BoredMan]

@DragonParadox Errors.

Spoiler: Errors

the Shroud of Turin which your father had protected from the Denarians three years back. But how would be...? you blink returning to yourself

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Gwair's green hair speaks to the essence of life Mabon of stone, Lyr himself is hard to judge, but he has daring. Be honest with yourself Molly, daring enough to steal it.

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The last time you remember was when he one of his friends put a baseball though Mrs Evens' window two years ago and he knew confessing was right, but he also really didn't want to deal with her.

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Missing an "and".

 

[Anaja]

Furthermore? Nobody in all of this mess has explained why Arthur deserves a second life; its just been assumed.
Millions of people die every day. Millions of children die every day without getting an opportunity to even live a fraction of their natural allotment.

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Bit of a two wrongs don't make a right situation for me. Millions of people dying everyday is wrong millions of times over. Arthur dying before he's done with being alive is also wrong for the same exact reasons. It's why our hell works the way that it does. The reason Arthur would be the one to resurrect over anyone else at the moment is that he's the one being kept on magical life support by a friend for just that.

 

[DragonParadox]

@DragonParadox Errors.

Spoiler: Errors

Missing an "and".

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Thanks for these.

One thing, 'has daring' is intentional, she is making a comparison to the other's aspect markings, implying that daring is like the green hair

 

[Nyarky]

[x] Sounds like a plan, explain it to them here, behind the wards of the Caer Sindi

 

[uju32]

If you want a trap that works on the Order of the Blackened Denarius it pretty much has to be a magical nuclear core. Molly gets the sense Lash isn't planning to chip at them. she wants to cripple them, remove them from play for at least an age of the world. Then she will feel safe/be safe. Remember this is a relatively humane aspect of a Fallen Angel... she is still an aspect of a Fallen Angel. Her sense of morality is a lot more about Harry, Molly and even Lydia than it is most of mankind, if they are willing to risk it she in on the wager against fate.

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Thats a hard no for me then.

While I appreciate Lash's faith, I have zero expectation that a trap of this nature would somehow clean sweep the active Denarians. Or that Lucy wont cheat to free them.
Lash certainly doesnt know the details of Molly's conversation with Uriel about this exact topic.


Given how Molly's warparty reacted to the events of Vegas, I dont think anyone of the humans, not even Lydia would be willing to risk wagering a magical nuke falling into the hands of the Fallen.

And I dont believe Molly would be willing to make that sort of decision or use that sort of bait IC either, not when the results of an oopsie or even a less than perfect result could be literal megadeaths that she would share culpability for.
Even Lash would hesitate based on how Harry might potentially react.

AND it would have major negative effects on our image as a reasonable supernatural Power that cares about mortals, instead of a reckless cowboy taking unnecessary risks with the lives of others.


The solution to Lash's insecurity is socialization, not create a Ruby Goldberg trap for a bunch of Fallen Angels and their Host, using a WMD.

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Bit of a two wrongs don't make a right situation for me. Millions of people dying everyday is wrong millions of times over. Arthur dying before he's done with being alive is also wrong for the same exact reasons. It's why our hell works the way that it does. The reason Arthur would be the one to resurrect over anyone else at the moment is that he's the one being kept on magical life support by a friend for just that.

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Most people die before they are being done with being alive; thats the nature of humanity.
Death is our bequest. Even the Primordials died back in Creation. He has no more a claim to extra life than Shiro, or Malcolm Dresden, or Aurora, or the thousands of people who died in Central Africa.

Certainly no more than Arawn's wife, who they killed in the process of this quest.



Arthur is not on magical life support. His body is preserved.
But he is dead. Dead dead. His Fate is Done dead. Thats the error that I think a lot of people are making.
He has as much expectation of permanent resurrection as Christian theology says everyone will at the End of Days.

There is furthermore no guarantee that he wants to come back permanently, or that some successful ritual would bring him back in his body, or have no further consequence.
Those people who watched Buffy will remember her reaction to being brought back from the dead.


This bunch of quixotic murderhobos have already murdered one woman in the course of this, and triggered the fall of a supernatural kingdom in doing so.

And none of this has apparently deterred their leader from going out to continue trying, only this time his plan is to break into a cathedral and rob the Catholic Church.
I find myself bereft of sympathy.

 

[Ivar]

[X] Plan Layers of Deception
-[X] Give options for peaceful possibilities of restoring Arthur to life as possible compromises, should they prove themselves trustworthy, retrieving the Shroud only one of them, to obscure the Crown of Eyes
--[X] Subterfuge excellency
-[X] Sounds like a plan, explain it to them here, behind the wards of the Caer Sindi
--[X] Use the Crown on the prison cell to ask "who is observing this scene right now?" before speaking

 

[DragonParadox]

Thats a hard no for me then.

While I appreciate Lash's faith, I have zero expectation that a trap of this nature would somehow clean sweep the active Denarians. Or that Lucy wont cheat to free them.
Lash certainly doesnt know the details of Molly's conversation with Uriel about this exact topic.


Given how Molly's warparty reacted to the events of Vegas, I dont think anyone of the humans, not even Lydia would be willing to risk wagering a magical nuke falling into the hands of the Fallen.

And I dont believe Molly would be willing to make that sort of decision or use that sort of bait IC either, not when the results of an oopsie or even a less than perfect result could be literal megadeaths that she would share culpability for.
Even Lash would hesitate based on how Harry might potentially react.

AND it would have major negative effects on our image as a reasonable supernatural Power that cares about mortals, instead of a reckless cowboy taking unnecessary risks with the lives of others.


The solution to Lash's insecurity is socialization, not create a Ruby Goldberg trap for a bunch of Fallen Angels and their Host, using a WMD.

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How Molly reacts is of course up to you guys, but I will say this much Lydia is on board if you are on board since she trusted you to walk into hell, Daniel is on board because he sees the Denarians as this great and terrible evil that his father has to help hold off so of course he is going to vote to end it once and for all if given an option. He does not understand the scale not really. Same kind of applies to Olivia only to her the Denarians represent some of those greater evils whose existence justifies the Council. If one of them could be brought low it would be proof of among other things how much she matters in the world. Also she did just recently gain overnight more power than most practitioners see in their whole lives and a lot of that power is aimed at killing people. Some very acceptable targets sound nice to have.

 

[uju32]

I mean....
I dont know if Im the only one who sees it, but resurrection rituals almost invariably result in a case of Came Back Wrong. Especially when you're trying to do this with stuff that was wrongfully acquired through theft or deception or murder.

Its not like people dont come back from the dead in the Dresdenverse; Dresden was visited by his father's spirit in his dreams multiple times during Dead Beat. We know that Karrin's dad and former partner are still working for one of Uriel's black ops offices instead of moving along to What Comes Next.

But noone whose soul/spirit has moved on, like the Fae Queens explicitly said Arthur has, has come back in bodily form in the setting. The very best you can hope for in ExWoD is to get a Liminal Exalt out of the deal, and that comes with its own problems.

 

[Iron Roby]

[X] Sounds like a plan, explain it to them here, behind the wards of the Caer Sindi

[X] Plan Layers of Deception
-[X] Give options for peaceful possibilities of restoring Arthur to life as possible compromises, should they prove themselves trustworthy, retrieving the Shroud only one of them, to obscure the Crown of Eyes
--[X] Subterfuge excellency
-[X] Sounds like a plan, explain it to them here, behind the wards of the Caer Sindi
--[X] Use the Crown on the prison cell to ask "who is observing this scene right now?" before speaking

I think I'm fine with both right now.

planning to steal a second divine artifact says that he very much does not appear to learn.

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I think that is a bit unfair. What they haven't done, is surrendered their ultimate goal, which is probably what helped keep them sane.

Why it still might came back to stealing is only because no one leaves stuff capable of reviving people around unowned and unguarded, and usually isn't willing to just lend it. So unless we volunteer the cauldron, they just think they have no other choice.

Furthermore? Nobody in all of this mess has explained why Arthur deserves a second life; its just been assumed.

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Because IMO most posters didn't approach it from a "deserve" angle in the first place? The conversation has mostly been about whether someone like Arthur would be useful for helping to better and protect a setting like World-of-Darkness-ified Dresdenverse, or if he would just make things worse.

The argument seems to be, that there are a lot of major players in the setting who prey on humanity or are outright enemies of the reality, but very few human-aligned factions. So that any new human-aligned new power would be welcome.

 

[DragonParadox]

I mean....
I dont know if Im the only one who sees it, but resurrection rituals almost invariably result in a case of Came Back Wrong. Especially when you're trying to do this with stuff that was wrongfully acquired through theft or deception or murder.

Its not like people dont come back from the dead in the Dresdenverse; Dresden was visited by his father's spirit in his dreams multiple times during Dead Beat. We know that Karrin's dad and former partner are still working for one of Uriel's black ops offices instead of moving along to What Comes Next.

But noone whose soul/spirit has moved on, like the Fae Queens explicitly said Arthur has, has come back in bodily form in the setting. The very best you can hope for in ExWoD is to get a Liminal Exalt out of the deal, and that comes with its own problems.

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That is a concern you can try to bring up with the knights for what it's worth, their oaths are to Arthur's legacy not his corpse, convincing them no resurrection could ever work right is the one path Molly with her 15 successes to read them thinks they might be swayed.

 

[Narasan]

I mean....
I dont know if Im the only one who sees it, but resurrection rituals almost invariably result in a case of Came Back Wrong.

The very best you can hope for in ExWoD is to get a Liminal Exalt out of the deal, and that comes with its own problems.

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this feels like you have already given up. the setting is dark,so the best course is to stabilize the situation and not rock the boat. that seems to be the opinion of many.

I think, if you are a protagonist in a dark setting, giving up and upholding the status quo is the most boring, sad thing you can do.

do you want to read the story of molly carpenter,local magic detective that solves active problems?

or molly carpenter, cursdd/blessed champion fighting for a better world?


and more importantly, which of these sounds like a game of exalted?


what i want to say is, dont give up.

we are meant to break the rules,to redefine what reality is.

To break free of hell.

If cold logic cant punch cuthulu in the face,i dont need it.

 

[firefrog600]

I mean I don't really think we can blame them for the want to ressurect arthur its a noble goal really. Its just one that's fucked in its basis and will probably end badly.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

I mean I don't really think we can blame them for the want to ressurect arthur its a noble goal really. Its just one that's fucked in its basis and will probably end badly.

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We could resurrect Arthur in a day tops if we wanted to. Use Micheal's sword as a focus, or something else summon Arthur's soul ask him if he wants to be resurrected, if yes pop into sanctuary for a day, done.

 

[Yog]

I dont know if Im the only one who sees it, but resurrection rituals almost invariably result in a case of Came Back Wrong.

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Sorry, but yes. This is defeatism at its purest. Mechanically ExvsWoD and WoD support true resurrection. Narratively, we don't actually have many (if any) examples of this going wrong in DF. Not many examples of it going right either, but it's worth investigating. In this story, Molly's kingdom has resurrection as automatic feature that works, and has worked since time immemorial. Billions of our citizens have gone through multiple resurrections.

In-character we have little reason to believe it would go wrong if we prepare enough. Hell, it might even be as simple as just moving Arthur to our kingdom.