Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

A 1500 years sentence seems too long, they did their time and should be released.
 
Not all heroes are superheroes, yes. Not all superheroes are great examples of morality either.
When people say "superhero morality" I'm pretty sure they're referring to Clark Kent/Peter Parker who hesitate to kill even villains who have killed countless people.
 
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Okay that's a bit reductionist because we definitely don't learn any of those things by reinforcing the seal either.
DP literally said we would learn more about their imprisonment as part of our efforts to reinforce their prison.

Mostly, however, I would expect us to learn relevant information through investigation. Using Crown questions, speaking to the sword, interviewing relevant people, possibly even cracking open some books, all things we can do in the background over a period of weeks or months.
 
[x] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.
 
We don't even know if they're conscious, if they've been held in magical stasis, if they've experienced extreme time dilation, if the long imprisonment has destroyed their sanity, etc. The simple act of interfering with their prison could be detrimental or even destructive.

But no one wants to make the effort to learn any of this. They would rather kick in the door and wake up the neighbors by blasting Crazy Train at max volume.
I want to do it now, and not put it off for another few dozen, hundreds of posts like... there are actually quite a lot of things to do. Like Molly's debt to the archive, for example.And I don't believe that it will be done anytime soon at all if we put it off.
 
[X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.

Once again, do not touch ancient magical sealing cans without research. Like is said, we will talk with Excalibur, investigatwe with Crown, maybe talk with experts in Five Cities to decide the best course of action, and then come back here (we will know where) once a well-reasoned decision is made.
 
Similarly, the fact that Hercules had a divine enemy does not in any way change the fact he was literally born with a silver spoon in his mouth; biological son of the king of gods, born to the wife of a king, raised in a royal household, favored by more gods, blessed with divine investments, trained by divine edict.
What?! I'm pretty sure Heracles would have gladly exchanged his "silver spoon" for living with his family. For every gift he had he was fucked twelve times over. His whole life consisted of bouncing between quests from different gods, most of which he could not refuse, and happening to people. Some of whom he wouldn't have had any beef with if Hera or someone else didn't send him to retrieve something.

And his death follows the same pattern - when he finally thinks that he has a little happiness he gets a torturous end through poison.

[X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days
 
Dramatically oversimplifying the entire argument here. We've done rounds on this before an covered a lot of ground.

The examples from the book are informative, but so are the rules and prior lore. We see what they will accept and how they act, and have no particular reason to believe they'll take a poll before doing what they do.

There are also basic concerns that are irreconcilable with the idea that they all go to good people. Namely, that if you get 10 people in a room you'll get at least 20 different definitions of what good is. Expecting the exaltations to only go to people you regard as good is fundamentally the same as expecting the universe to agree with your moral system and enforce it.

I don't want to leak politics into this, but make a list of modern conflict regions and put an exalt in each of at least two different camps in the fight. Consider what happens next.

That is something I view as a reasonably optimistic result of the exalted walking the earth again.
I do not believe that the exaltations will go to only good people, as I mentioned they seek out greatness rather then specific morals like a bronze age mindset. It is just that people with firm belief not matter the form will usually be the type to seek out greatness.

The idea I am against is the argument that it will only go to horrible people and/or make people horrible. Like the basic premise that the next exalted after Molly will be a new Hitler or Stalin and therefore all must be stopped is just not a line of thought I can ever agree with.
 
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talk with experts in Five Cities

Earth is a completely alien culture to Five Cities, and is something that needs to be explained to their experts. The only common point of understanding I can see here is "loyal servants of their righful God-King trying to cure/revive him", which they would probably be biased to see positively anyway.

So it's not just Britain at risk from Arthur, it's half of Europe and North Africa. :V Molly would probably stop him before it got that far, but I'm still a little concerned about how far Arthur could get if he fucks off to Constantinople while Molly's back is turned and coups Turkey (again) and goes from there.

I think Arthur was before people completely gave up on the idea of Western Rome and the Eastern Rome became the only "True Rome", so he might still prioritize the original capital of the Empire. And when you look at it sideways, EU is as close to Western Rome reborn as it has been since the real thing.

If Arthur is a social Solar Exalt capable and willing to adapt, he could just try to federalize EU and become its leader.

Think about it - a timeline without Brexit! :V
 
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So modern people are going to gain bronze age morality from getting an exaltation and start genociding nearest population?
I think it's less that and more 'driving them to indulge their whims/urges, no matter how that might affect those around them', perhaps with a side helping of 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely'.

I mean, hell, imagine what someone like Putin would do with an Exaltation. I am quite sure he thinks of himself as a great man at the very least, if not perhaps a good one.
 
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The idea I am against is the argument that it will only go to horrible people and/or make people horrible. Like the basic premise that the next exalted after Molly will be a new Hitler or Stalin and therefore all must be stopped is just not a line of thought I can ever agree with.

BronzeTongue hasn't been saying that?

They're always glorious and often good, not glorious because they're good. Even when they're good they're still human, and their power tends to increase the consequences of their flaws.

I'm not saying they're all monsters, but what they're paragons of is not morality.
 
I think it's less that and more 'driving them to indulge their whims/urges, no matter how that might affect those around them', perhaps with a side helping of 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
I mean, the first is just regular human behavior and an exaltation will not change that as the Great curse is gone. And second is pretty much the same, we will get people some people of that type but also people on the other side of that and everything in between.

BronzeTongue hasn't been saying that?
Bronze seem to have assumed that I was of the mind that every exalted would be a good person, I clarified my stance. No where did I say that it was Bronze taking that stance, but rather my opposition to the general idea.
 
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When people say "superhero morality" I'm pretty sure they're referring to Clark Kent/Peter Parker.
Yeah, I understand. Leaving aside how both of those have their own hangups and issues, I think there are more variations of "being a hero" than that, which are good to have around.
I think it's less that and more 'driving them to indulge their whims/urges, no matter how that might affect those around them', perhaps with a side helping of 'power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely'.
Exaltation sans Great Curse doesn't really push you to do stuff. And "power corrupts" is a very defeatist notion. Power enables.

Also, I'll note that, at least as far as I remember, while exaltations may not go only to altruistic good people, they very rarely, if ever, go to outright evil people.
DP literally said we would learn more about their imprisonment as part of our efforts to reinforce their prison.

Mostly, however, I would expect us to learn relevant information through investigation. Using Crown questions, speaking to the sword, interviewing relevant people, possibly even cracking open some books, all things we can do in the background over a period of weeks or months.
I'll note that "try to talk to them to see if they are reasonable enough to be released" isn't equal to "release them here and now, no questions asked".
 
[X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.
 
I mean, the first is just regular human behavior and an exaltation will not change that as the Great curse is gone. And second is pretty much the same, we will get people some people of that type but also people on the other side of that and everything in between.
I mean, even with Molly you can see her worldview changing with the Exaltation; perhaps mostly for the better, but then again she has Michael, Charity, and Harry, one of whom is a literal Knight of the Cross, as three major influences in her life, on top of her being who she is. And yet, the Exaltation still is changing her. How much more dramatic would the changes be if she did not have that degree of support, that degree of moral foundation (between her family and her faith) in her life? Most people will not.

And again, being a Great Person does not necessarily mean being a Good Person.

What I am saying is, the world lucked out massively with the Infernal Exaltation going to Molly Carpenter. It could've been so much worse.

I'm tempted to quote Ollivander from Harry Potter here, but I don't remember the exact quote.

Exaltation sans Great Curse doesn't really push you to do stuff.
IIRC it encourages you to do great (not necessarily good) things?
 
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What?! I'm pretty sure Heracles would have gladly exchanged his "silver spoon" for living with his family. For every gift he had he was fucked twelve times over. His whole life consisted of bouncing between quests from different gods, most of which he could not refuse, and happening to people. Some of whom he wouldn't have had any beef with if Hera or someone else didn't send him to retrieve something.

And his death follows the same pattern - when he finally thinks that he has a little happiness he gets a torturous end through poison.
Hercules has great propaganda.

Hera's fuckery was only responsible for a fraction of what happened in his life, and his silver spoon is the only reason he made it out of childhood in the first place. The man started adulthood by murdering his music teacher with a lyre for correcting him, and still got into another prestigious mentorship. That set a pattern.

Hercules murdered his way across a good chunk of Greece and the Aegean. He killed one king and his sons and sacked his city for refusing to give him his daughter. He killed another king for not letting him into his kingdom.
He sacked Troy because the then-king owed him horses.

Dude was a Greek hero. He did mighty things. He was also indisputably an asshole.

In Greek mythology, when just badmouthing a god gets you turned into an object lesson, dude was out there stabbing and shooting major gods, and noone follows up because of who Daddy is.
The man injured Ares, Hera and Hades and walked away without harm.

Even his death was his fault.
He had a wife Daeanira, he kidnaps another woman Iole as a wife/concubine, wiping out her entire family to do so.
And in order to keep his love, the wife resorts to desperate measures.

And even after he dies, he still gets turned into a god.
 
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[X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.

Was it just me, or is it suggested that Lydia is a lot older than she thinks she is?

That or her mom wasn't his queen.
 
[X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.

Was it just me, or is it suggested that Lydia is a lot older than she thinks she is?
That or her mom wasn't his queen.
Her mom wasnt his queen.
Arawn's first wife died ages ago. Lydia's mom is someone else, someone more recent.
We dont know what happened to her either.

The interesting bit is that a bunch of allegedly mortal dudes killed the wife of a death god.
In his own home, in his kingdom.
How?

This is one of those things where I begin to have suspicions about other things going on in the background.
Because this is exactly the sort of thing Nemesis would arrange.
And its probably not coincidental that after his wife died, Arawn eventually became weak enough to have to swear to Winter.
 
The interesting bit is that a bunch of allegedly mortal dudes killed the wife of a death god.
In his own home, in his kingdom.
How?
They are mythic heroes of ages past.

How many supernatural things did Arthur's knights kill in the various versions of his story?

I wasn't totally joking about the Scion crossover, WoD might not have the mechanics for it, but superhuman heroes going on epic quests, capable of opposing minor gods like Arawn do seem to fit in that.
Someone who is larger than life without being a monster or wizard.
 
The interesting bit is that a bunch of allegedly mortal dudes killed the wife of a death god.
In his own home, in his kingdom.
How?
All of them are demigods.
Hercules has great propaganda.
You are oversimplyfying and pushing an agenda, I believe. I am not prepared in engaging in a lengthy debate on the issue, and I believe neither of us is qualified (you'd need a degree in ancient greek literature for that).

On the subject of Arthur - if we take Excalibur to be Amoracchius, then conquest of Britain was fully approved by White God.
 
On the subject of Arthur - if we take Excalibur to be Amoracchius, then conquest of Britain was fully approved by White God.
Well, that's not a fact. The absence of objections is not the same as approval. But he clearly didn't consider it a sufficient sin for the sword to go away.
 
[X] Harden the door as much as it's needed that Lydia might take what hounds wish with her. You will have words with Amoracchius-that-is-Excalibur and perhaps with others and then you will find some way to right this ancient wrong one way or the other.

Give up @uju32 it's impossible to change this train now.

[X] It's been fifteen hundred years since Arthur fell, five hundred since the last vestige of Eastern Rome fell, try to reason with the knights through the bars that their quest is lost but they need not be. You understand now the pain of Arawn, but that pain alone does not merit three souls bound until the End of Days

I'm voting this too but if they prove stubborn I'll vote to kill them without discussion.
 
Mechanics vs. lore. The lore outright says it was degenerative, but that property is never relevant in gameplay.

The subtly is in the reflection of their character; a good limit break should relate to the character in question. It should be an exaggerated response to something they'd care about. A former slave going ham on slavers, someone who lost their children reacting to people harming theirs, that sort of thing. So when they go off you can look at it and go "if anyone was going to do something like that it'd be them".

That's a basic requirement for it to remain largely unknown the way it was.
Limit breaks are not subtle, they are big sudden mental breaks, that can last months if not years. The Great Curse biggest long term effect is also on Solars with lesser effect on the others, the main thing it caused is Solars would be engineering society so that their limit breaks cannot occur. If you hate a Yozi servant race, the easiest way to deal with them causing limit is to wipe them out. A Solar despises say crude art, might force everybody in their realm to train to master a artform, before they can be considered an adult.

Reminder the Sideral great curse effect was to make their predictions worse, with the effect growing stronger as more Sideral work together. And despite that their predictions still gave informing the Solars about their issues as, an option leading to a new age as decent odds. Which once you account for the Great Curse effect, means it was near certain, maybe with a couple of hundred years of war but far less damage then the Dragonblood taking over would have been.
 
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