Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

The willpower a character that isn't a Supernatural is supposed to have is three not even five definitely nowhere near seven, three. Molly herself only started with nine Lydia herself started with less than seven.

I think you might be forgetting that no amount of conversation is mind control he can just spend willpower to ignore us. The only way we could actually convince him to change his mind is if we tied into a chair and burn all of his willpower. His mother has been trying to get him off this track for the last probably 10 or so years and she has failed the entire time no amount of dice that isn't mind control would allow us to break him without doing things like breaking him.

There is no intimacy that we can Target that would allow us to break him from this course of action. Lydia his first even if it's only puppy, love walks alongside Us in danger. His father walks in danger for the Lord for God knows how long God knows how many missions against Dragons demons and who knows what else us his sister literally moving into hell bombing it with hope bombs and just generally fucking shit up.

The only intimacy that he has that's actually lines up with not getting into the Supernatural is his mom and he's been ignoring her for the last again I don't know how long. The only way that he wasn't going to be involved for the supernatural would involve us partaking in what is something pretty close to torture for an extended period of time and even then not even a sure thing because he still has intimacies that led him to the path that he wants to walk anyway.

By WoD statistics about 7% of the population has willpower 7... most of them are not teenagers. The Carpenter kids all have very high willpower for their age. How much of that is down to having Charity for a mother I'll leave up to you guys to consider. :V
 
The Alphas do patrols, though that may have to do with the fact that they are wolves and they would go stir crazy if they did not get to run around together in that form. Magic changes the practitioner and in their case the change was 'Wolfy McWolfpants' ;)
Maybe Lydia should have tried befriending them first when looking for hounds.
 
The willpower a character that isn't a Supernatural is supposed to have is three not even five definitely nowhere near seven, three. Molly herself only started with nine Lydia herself started with less than seven.

I think you might be forgetting that no amount of conversation is mind control he can just spend willpower to ignore us. The only way we could actually convince him to change his mind is if we tied into a chair and burn all of his willpower. His mother has been trying to get him off this track for the last probably 10 or so years and she has failed the entire time no amount of dice that isn't mind control would allow us to break him without doing things like breaking him.

There is no intimacy that we can Target that would allow us to break him from this course of action. Lydia his first even if it's only puppy, love walks alongside Us in danger. His father walks in danger for the Lord for God knows how long God knows how many missions against Dragons demons and who knows what else us his sister literally moving into hell bombing it with hope bombs and just generally fucking shit up.

The only intimacy that he has that's actually lines up with not getting into the Supernatural is his mom and he's been ignoring her for the last again I don't know how long. The only way that he wasn't going to be involved for the supernatural would involve us partaking in what is something pretty close to torture for an extended period of time and even then not even a sure thing because he still has intimacies that led him to the path that he wants to walk anyway.
I do not see the relevance of his Willpower score. Yay, he's wilfull.
Solaroid says big whoop. Willpower does not help you in social combat against a social Exalt in ExWoD.

Seriously, go check the rules on what Willpower can be used for in V20/M20; noping social arguments is not one of them.


I think you are forgetting that Daniel is not an Exalt.
Non-Exalts do not get the complicated social defences of Exalted in ExWoD.
intimaCies

Long ago, Creation trembled beneath the unleashed passions of the Chosen, and 10,000 years have done nothing to lessen the intensity of their convictions. All Exalted characters have Intimacies, special ties or principles that are of utmost importance to them. Generally these are articulated either as a personal tie and the context for that tie, such as "My wife (love),"
"Prince Marcus Vitel (hatred)", or "Chicago (home- town pride)," or else as a statement of the character's personal philosophy or values, such as "Never expect anyone to look out for anyone but themselves," "With- out the love of the Lord we are truly lost," or "With great power comes great responsibility."

Most Exalted characters have three Intimacies. If an Intimacy becomes irrelevant or impossible to sustain (for example, if she succeeds in destroying the vampire who killed her family), she can adopt a new Intimacy to replace it at the beginning of the next story. Alternately, at the end of a story an Exalt's player can voluntarily abandon and replace a single Intimacy that she feels is no longer relevant to her character.

Whenever something attempts to force an Exalt to act against, abandon, or betray an Intimacy, the Exalt's player can make a Willpower roll against difficulty 8 to refuse to do so. This remains true even if the Exalt is under the influence of a supernatural power (such as Dominate) that she already failed to resist. Her Intimacy acts as a second line of defense.

Once per session, when an Exalt acts to strongly support or affirm one of her Intimacies, she may gain a Willpower point on the spot.
And even Exalts dont get to spend Willpower to ignore social arguments and shit; they only get a roll.
Which was why Corpsetaker even managed to possess Lydia in the first place.
Thats why one of the first things Molly bought was a perfect social defense.

Other people have to roll normally as per V20/M20 mechanics with varying DCs.
They do not get to use Intimacies to shield themselves from especially convincing arguments.

They only get to burn Willpower on shit when the QM chooses to let them, which gives them an extra success, and it doesnt let them nope arguments; thats an Ex2 mechanic, that doesnt exist here in this game, where the core mechanics are V20.
Molly can throw Legendary numbers of social successes at any conversation she takes seriously. Daniel doesnt.


We've made our choices about empowering him. Thats not a vote to relitigate, and Im not saying we should do so.
But we could have changed his decisions if we had so wanted.
Dont make the mistake of arguing otherwise; the mechanics do not support it.


=====
Thats just not true.
We have seen Molly win social combat against a naagloshii onscreen. Persuade her father, a Knight of the Cross. Schmooze the fucking Merlin of the White Council, and the Deputy Commander of its Wardens. Go 1v1 with Mab, and not lose her hat.

Its quite a contrivance to argue that Daniel Carpenter, the 16-17 year old teenager that she has known since they were both in diapers, is a tougher target than the literal fallen god of pain and terror she convinced to kill his employer and aggro her father the Red King.


=====
That is just not true either.
Daniel has not been ignoring his mother. As witnessed by the argument that Molly literally just had to bail him out of a couple updates ago. We would know it if he was.
 
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I do not see the relevance of his Willpower score. Yay, he's wilfull.
Solaroid says big whoop. Willpower does not help you in social combat against a social Exalt in ExWoD.

Seriously, go check the rules on what Willpower can be used for in V20/M20; noping social arguments is not one of them.


I think you are forgetting that Daniel is not an Exalt.
Non-Exalts do not get the complicated social defences of Exalted in ExWoD.
intimaCies

Long ago, Creation trembled beneath the unleashed passions of the Chosen, and 10,000 years have done nothing to lessen the intensity of their convictions. All Exalted characters have Intimacies, special ties or principles that are of utmost importance to them. Generally these are articulated either as a personal tie and the context for that tie, such as "My wife (love),"
"Prince Marcus Vitel (hatred)", or "Chicago (home- town pride)," or else as a statement of the character's personal philosophy or values, such as "Never expect anyone to look out for anyone but themselves," "With- out the love of the Lord we are truly lost," or "With great power comes great responsibility."

Most Exalted characters have three Intimacies. If an Intimacy becomes irrelevant or impossible to sustain (for example, if she succeeds in destroying the vampire who killed her family), she can adopt a new Intimacy to replace it at the beginning of the next story. Alternately, at the end of a story an Exalt's player can voluntarily abandon and replace a single Intimacy that she feels is no longer relevant to her character.

Whenever something attempts to force an Exalt to act against, abandon, or betray an Intimacy, the Exalt's player can make a Willpower roll against difficulty 8 to refuse to do so. This remains true even if the Exalt is under the influence of a supernatural power (such as Dominate) that she already failed to resist. Her Intimacy acts as a second line of defense.

Once per session, when an Exalt acts to strongly support or affirm one of her Intimacies, she may gain a Willpower point on the spot.
And even Exalts dont get to spend Willpower to ignore social arguments and shit; they only get a roll.
Which was why Corpsetaker even managed to possess Lydia in the first place.
Thats why one of the first things Molly bought was a perfect social defense.

Other people have to roll normally as per V20/M20 mechanics with varying DCs.
They do not get to use Intimacies to shield themselves from especially convincing arguments.

They only get to burn Willpower on shit when the QM chooses to let them, which gives them an extra success, and it doesnt let them nope arguments; thats an Ex2 mechanic, that doesnt exist here in this game, where the core mechanics are V20.
Molly can throw Legendary numbers of social successes at any conversation she takes seriously. Daniel doesnt.


We've made our choices about empowering him. Thats not a vote to relitigate, and Im not saying we should do so.
But we could have changed his decisions if we had so wanted.
Dont make the mistake of arguing otherwise; the mechanics do not support it.


=====
Thats just not true.
We have seen Molly win social combat against a naagloshii onscreen. Persuade her father, a Knight of the Cross. Schmooze the fucking Merlin of the White Council, and the Deputy Commander of its Wardens. Go 1v1 with Mab, and not lose her hat.

Its quite a contrivance to argue that Daniel Carpenter, the 16-17 year old teenager that she has known since they were both in diapers, is a tougher target than the literal fallen god of pain and terror she convinced to kill his employer and aggro her father the Red King.


=====
That is just not true either.
Daniel has not been ignoring his mother. As witnessed by the argument that Molly literally just had to bail him out of a couple updates ago. We would know it if he was.
The two examples you used were unnatural influence (possession, mind control, mental suggestions, etc.). I'm talking about normal social combat (natural influence) which you, as you understand a little of Exalted's mechanics, should understand the mechanical difference and using them as expressions is arguing in bad faith.

So you must be forgetting that guy, a member of Ants, who was wasting his willpower to deny Thomas's charm, praying and crying so much, because Thomas was doing exactly that, emptying his will, to scared Molly.

And I already said, it's not about rolling any dice, because that only happened if we couldn't leave our neighborhood, that's what it means to spend willpower in social combat when you're losing, ignore the other side and get out of the area.

This was the mechanic we used throughout the quest. Michael and Harry didn't do it because they also wanted to convince us otherwise (continue the social combat) and not just ignore us and do what they wanted anyway (abrupt termination of social combat).

Yes, I agree that won votes should not be litigated again but you have the bad habit of when you lose a vote or a vote which you don't like won, to keep saying how things could be different with all the world passive-aggressive energy "didn't I say?" or "I know better than you", several times throughout the topic, made worse by the fact that you and Yog are the ones who make the most plans but he almost never does it. Or when you starts discussing something about the DP configuration he confirms several times without ever letting go, using the phrase "my opinion" to prolong the conflict to no end.

Maybe you didn't mean that (almost certainly not, because you don't seem like a bad person at all), but that's always been the feeling I got from some of your posts.

And it's good that you don't recognize when the GM corrects you on something (Alphas patrolling), and I also remember that it was mentioned several times at the beginning of the quest as a reason why we should meet with them, when we were just starting out and without allies. And Olivia in the Interlude she had with Thomas asked to do basically the same thing, as part of her desire to protect other little talents, which Thomas convinced her to ask for help from wizards in training instead of doing it alone for safety.
 
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Vote closed.
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Jun 19, 2024 at 2:09 AM, finished with 67 posts and 22 votes.

  • [X] Plan Checking
    -[X] Have Clippy run down the license plates of the car
    -[X] Use the Crown on this scene to learn how a dead body came to be in the trunk of the car
    --[X] If there's nothing supernatural about it, tip the local police, using Clippy's data
    --[X] If there's anything supernatural going on
    ---[X] Activate All Things Betray with WIllpower
    --[X] Use Naked Wicked Souls on the driver of the car
    [X] Trail the strange car
    [X] Continue on to the Teifi Marshes
    [X] Trail the strange car
    -[x]Have Clippy run a search on the license plate.
    [X] Plan: Check before haring off
    -[X] Record the numberplate for future tracking, and ask about the circumstances [i.e. why did it happen, how did it happen, is it magic or mundane] of the death that happened in that car [focus, this scene].
    -[X] If our question does not provide enough details to identify the killers as well, ask a second question about the identities of the people invovled in the killing of the person who died in that trunk, in a way that also includes their address/phone numbers/who is in the orginsation(s) they are a part of [focus, the car we are looking at].
    -[X] Set Clippy on gathering more information/context on the matter, either for it to be addressed by the group, or as a report to be handed in to the relevant police forces.
    -[X] Unless we learn something that demands immidate action, top off in a nice relaxing cup of bleach.
 
Arc 13 Post 11: Of Judgement Mortal and Divine
Of Judgement Mortal and Divine

3rd of February 2007 A.D.

Click Clippy catches the license plate. "How did the hand of death touch metal and wheels?" You pull at the threads of the world and at their edges you find... A blond girl crowned with flowers, the flash of a seductive smile, a moment's hesitation as she climbs into the back of the car, some flash of warning ignored. She needs the money. In the driver's seat a thin balding man still on the sunny side of middle age and unremarkable for it except for the unwholesome glint in his eye. He means to take more than is on offer. Everything.

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 14/15 (Crown Question)

"Serial killer, just a guy.." you get out. Somehow that's worse than if you'd found a vampire or a ghoul. Why is it worse?

As soon as the words are out of your mouth the green car takes a turn and Daniel turns off the highway to follow him. "I've got his plates, we'll get his name in a few minutes."

"Huh?" It's only now you realize your brother had never seen you hack anything, more specifically he has not seen your friends carve their way though firewalls like they aren't even there.

"Chris Halliwell 42." An image flashes on the small screen, stripped, sterile and official, a driver's license, but undeniably the same guy.

"We can just call him into the local police..."

Lydia glares though the mist, her left hand twitching up like she's pulling on a puppet's strings. "There's no body in there. Someone definitely died in that trunk, maybe more than one with what you are saying, but the body isn't there for mortal investigators to find."

"So what, we just let him go?" Olivia asks, as horrified at the prospect as you are, not that you are planning to.

Tiffany gives a long suffering sigh. "I can get him to confess, I'm going to need to borrow a recorder though."

To her credit Olivia remembers who she's talking to, the first to ask the question all the rest of you are thinking. "How? He is not just going to admit to murder because you asked him nicely?"

"Humans are social creatures, even those who would step so far beyond society's norms desire recognition. They want to be known, to be feared, especially by their victims. I'm almost certainly near enough his type to get him in the right frame of mind with a bit of planning."

"So what, you're just going to use yourself as a lure?" For his part Daniel isn't thinking about who he's talking to right now, just the idea of her putting herself in danger.

"Why bother?" Lydia cuts in. "Look we can just overtake him on a stretch of road with no other cars I strike him though the window with a bolt, the coroner's going to rule it a stroke. A stroke it shall be, only of the more antique sort."

"You can't just kill someone like that!" Daniel protests automatically. "There are laws..."

"And rules and regulations and time passed in which he might kill again," she interrupts him, expression darkening. "Better that the guilty should be set free than that the innocent is bound. A good system, for fallible mortal justice. The judgement of Molly's insight is not fallible, this man has killed for the thrill of it as Tiffany has said and he will kill again. Why should justice walk the long winding path of mortal instrumentality?"

"I'm pretty sure the UK doesn't have the death sentence." Olivia breaks the uneasy silence that had fallen inside the car.

Lydia opens her mouth to argue, stops then takes an unexpected tack. "If you really want to keep him alive and Molly is fine with it we could just send him away. To the City of Laws I mean or some other place in Sanctuary, maybe they will find some use for him like those Vampires you caught."

"That's not the same..." Daniel starts, but his girlfriend cuts him off.

"You are right, it's not, Red Feasters need blood though they do not specifically need to kill after the first time it is difficult for them to stop. The man up ahead just enjoys ripping women's lives away untimely."

What do you do?

[] Tiffany's plan, get a confession to hand to the police

[] Lydia's Plan, Hunter's Bolt through the window to induce stroke like symptoms

[] Vanish him into Sanctuary, they have plenty of jail cells to keep him

[] Write in


OOC: For anyone wondering the way Lydia checked if there was a body in that car at the moment was attempt to use Command the Dead in that general direction.
 
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[X] Vanish him into Sanctuary, they have plenty of jail cells to keep him

This has the highest chance of him achieving redemption.
 
[X] Vanish him into Sanctuary, they have plenty of jail cells to keep him

This has the highest chance of him achieving redemption.
You know this technically works but the sheer hilarity of kidnapping this man into hell is hilarious. He's basically not our problem after this seeing as the redemption programs by our hells denizens probably take the long approach sometimes with centuries before release.
 
I think it's better to hand him over to the state. It's not our job to correct/punish him. That's the UK's job. I think it's a dangerous path to take other options that lead to bad places mentally for Molly.
 
[X] Vanish him into Sanctuary, they have plenty of jail cells to keep him

if this was most other mcs, i would strongly argue to just end him.Cause that is what i want,and most mcs are inconsistent,so there can be an argument,or worse,pacifists(uuuuuugh),and i want them to change.

But this would be out of character for her. She has been very consistent in this.
And is not a pacifist.

so,just jail him and move on.
 
[X] Tiffany's plan, get a confession to hand to the police

His place is in prison, but not in ours. And this is an important point and I hope that Molly will not become like all the other forces in the setting.
 
I think it's better to hand him over to the state. It's not our job to correct/punish him. That's the UK's job. I think it's a dangerous path to take other options that lead to bad places mentally for Molly.
I mean either he gets away with it, he rots in prison, or he gets executed. Us kidnapping him is pretty close to factually more moral we aren't even judging him directly ourselves our denizens would and there would be peer review and conditions met. Our hell is one of the few places that doesn't do prisons solely for punishment.
 
I think it's better to hand him over to the state. It's not our job to correct/punish him. That's the UK's job. I think it's a dangerous path to take other options that lead to bad places mentally for Molly.
i very strongly disagree. taking matters into her own hands and not waiting for incompetent,corrupt idiots to ruin everything,is a very healthy, natural mindset for a magical empress.

we are not just some teenager in a foreign country on a road trip.





we are that,plus a major magical power that can and will change the world.


us getting into a passive,submissive mindset is very bad. for everyone who is not an evil monster


edit: "harry should we investigate quirrel?" " no its against the rules!"

"luke, we have to fight the empire!"
"i dont want to rebel against our government,that would be illegal!"

"ghandi,should we protes?"
"what,no!thats illegal! its a terrible mindset to go against government authority!get back to work!"

" i have enough of these english royalists!lets just dump the tee in the harbor!" "are you insane!? they are our rulers!now get back to paying taxes!"
 
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I don't suppose we can just call a wizard and have them handle it? It's their backyard and they'll accept an answer of "magic" to a question of how we know the serial killer did it.
 
[X] Tiffany's plan, get a confession to hand to the police

[X] Lydia's Plan, Hunter's Bolt through the window to induce stroke like symptoms

Prison or hole in the chest either way we're not particularly in the habit of of shielding murderers from the consequences of their actions. It's almost certain that Sanctuary holds different standards for the crime of murder simply because of eternal torment which means at most they consider it a severe kind of assault rather than a permanent ending. He's a sadistic murderer who takes advantage of vulnerable people he needs to be in prison or have a hole in his chest I do not care which but we're not taking him to our hell.
 
i very strongly disagree. taking matters into her own hands and not waiting for incompetent,corrupt idiots to ruin everything,is a very healthy, natural mindset for a magical empress.

we are not just some teenager in a foreign country on a road trip.

we are that,plus a major magical power that can and will change the world.


us getting into a passive,submissive mindset is very bad. for everyone who is not an evil monster
Yeah, let's screw the mortals. Their autonomy. Queen Molly knows better than the pathetic mortal authorities of Britain. We decide what will happen. That's how I see it. And it's terrible. I'd rather respect the sovereignty of the mundane power when possible.
I mean either he gets away with it, he rots in prison, or he gets executed. Us kidnapping him is pretty close to factually more moral we aren't even judging him directly ourselves our denizens would and there would be peer review and conditions met. Our hell is one of the few places that doesn't do prisons solely for punishment.
It would definitely not be what I would call fair. It would just be another supernatural lynching. Molly is not a court system that has jurisdiction. If it were fairies or ghosts, people would probably want to stop them. But if we do that, it's okay.
 
After the Masquerade is broken:

Donald slams a piece of paper down in front of Dresden: "Give this to Molly."

Dresden picks up the document: "This... is an extradition request from England? For... Molly?"

Donald: "For an English citizen. That she banished to Hell."

Dresden: "I don't think you can save someone from Hell with this method..."
 
Yeah, let's screw the mortals. Their autonomy. Queen Molly knows better than the pathetic mortal authorities of Britain. We decide what will happen. That's how I see it. And it's terrible. I'd rather respect the sovereignty of the mundane power when possible.

It would definitely not be what I would call fair. It would just be another supernatural lynching. Molly is not a court system that has jurisdiction. If it were fairies or ghosts, people would probably want to stop them. But if we do that, it's okay.
i dont believe in mortal authorities. at all. a wellmeaning teenager with superpowers in administration taking over the world would be the best thing ever. i am not being sarcastic.
 
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