Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Yog]

I don't see a reason not to be petty. Maybe we could ask what his childhood nickname was and spread it around to the rebels on the way out the door. That or just give him an cutesy one ourselves and imbed it in insults.

Tagging walls with "Mik the Prik" or "Miki, what would Minnie say about this?" As we run around the city post bombing would be funny.

Can you imagine the credibility damage of being dread lord Miki? People would think Disney launched a gritty remake of the Sorcerer's Apprentice.

If I knew any Japanese at all I'd be tempted to check what sort of puns we could make based on the character composition of his name, but this is about as close as I can get.

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We should still maintain secrecy of the Crown, which is one of the reasons I am not actually putting this into my vote (yet). So, this should be a secret we could plausibly have learned from someone. Ideally from Emma-O. Hmm, maybe formulate the question as "what is the most embarrassing secret of MIkaboshi that he knows is known to Emma-O?". This way we could further point the finger at Emma-O.

The other issue with this is that we lack means of delivery. I mean, Clippy might be capable, and we are bringing her (I think? Are we?). Speaking of, we should probably have some manner of wearable cyberdevil harness with ECM capability. @DragonParadox any sort of equipment like that in the Courts? Something small, wearable, with a self-destruct probably. With recording and transmission capability. Actually - do we have any secure short-range communicators? So we could communicate beyond line of sight.

 

[BronzeTongue]

So are you saying that you cannot spend both an Essence and a willpower and then fail to do anything to your Target because from what I can see that's exactly what can happen. Considering there's no targeting or attack mechanism usage that means it's not even a perfect damage effect you can just spaff a bunch of your resources to do fucking nothing.

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For a regular perfect attack you could if you botched. For SBS as I understand it you could spend willpower for at least 1 success under the same terms.

This is incidental because doing damage isn't the same as landing an attack and perfect attacks only ensure you hit, nothing else. The definition has never required anything more, especially not specific charm interactions.

Huh, I mean:

I am pretty sure that what Bronze Tongue is telling is that if you roll 0 damages with Accuracy without distance or Gasp of Dead gods, then the result is exactly the same as if you did with SBS, nothing.

*You hit with the sword but did no damage after paying to make the attack perfect* is the same as *you looked at them with SBS and did no damage*. Both cases uses the exact same ressources (the price of the charm), and have the same effect (an attack that cannot be defended against without a perfect defense).

I really don't see why you seem to think that SBS isn't a perfect attack given that.

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Yes, exactly this.

Looking at the fluff for a moment, what happens when SBS fails? What does it mean to fail that willpower roll given that it is willpower and not any skill? I would argue it means the Exalt could not muster up enough spite for the charm. Mechanically I agree that you can make the point it's not a perfect attack but stylistically it certainly seems to be in the right ballpark.

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The difficulty is set by the target's stamina though, so I think there's an argument to be made that the infernal doesn't manage to concentrate enough power to do damage. Similar to if you shot someone with GDG and rolled all 1s your bullet would hit, but at an angle and location that basically causes it to glance off.

Or fight through someone's magic resistance to effect their body in our case.

It acts like a perfect attack, so it seems like a distinction without a difference to separate it out.

 

[firefrog600]

We could use a question on the hope bomb for what happens if planted in certain places? It's not like we are gonna keep the bomb for later.

 

[Degorium]

Looking at the fluff for a moment, what happens when SBS fails? What does it mean to fail that willpower roll given that it is willpower and not any skill? I would argue it means the Exalt could not muster up enough spite for the charm. Mechanically I agree that you can make the point it's not a perfect attack but stylistically it certainly seems to be in the right ballpark.

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Mechanically speaking it's the closest infernals have to a perfect attack. But infernals also have three different kinds of perfect soak, no perfect parries and one perfect Dodge so it is what it is.

Huh, I mean:

I am pretty sure that what Bronze Tongue is telling is that if you roll 0 damages with Accuracy without distance or Gasp of Dead gods, then the result is exactly the same as if you did with SBS, nothing.

*You hit with the sword but did no damage after paying to make the attack perfect* is the same as *you looked at them with SBS and did no damage*. Both cases uses the exact same ressources (the price of the charm), and have the same effect (an attack that cannot be defended against without a perfect defense).

I really don't see why you seem to think that SBS isn't a perfect attack given that.

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Except they're not actually the same thing. If you use Accuracy Without Distance there are charms that can activate on a successful hit no matter what so it is not literally, but if an exalt makes a choice to deal no damage it's because they made a choice to deal no damage not because they couldn't deal damage. For solars that means either they didn't use their Excellency to have no extra successes because if they had extra successes they could definitely use Hungry Tiger Technique to deal Double extra successes in damage without spending any further resources than making the attack sure to hit. If they have Fire and Stone Strike they can add anywhere from one to five extra damage for one Essence to deal no damage on a perfect attack means you made a choice not to deal damage not because you couldn't.

The visuals or realities of the difference between a failed to do damage perfect attack and boiling sinner stare. Is that a perfect attack that failed to do damage but simply because the exalt chose not to do damage or did not have the necessary follow-up to deal even more damage or didn't invest in the attack properly to begin with it isn't they failed to hit you. Boiling Sinner stare if you fail to hit you have spent both a willpower and an Essence to do nothing your opponent didn't need to Parry you your opponent didn't need to defend themselves your opponent didn't need to spend any resources whatsoever.

BSS is just more expensive than every other perfect attack and has a greater probability of failure against non-exalted targets for Less damage than most perfect attacks would hit for if they were activated in a scenario like a fight with say Excellency or damage adders activated. It's the closest thing infernals have but that's an indictment of infernals not saying it's actually a perfect attack.

 

[BronzeTongue]

We could use a question on the hope bomb for what happens if planted in certain places? It's not like we are gonna keep the bomb for later.

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The fun part is that we can. From what DP said earlier we'll keep the spell pattern of it for ourselves.

I'm assuming this means something like keeping the flower but spread the pollen around. Assuming that's correct, we could flip on AtP and leave trails of pollen around the city for people to come in contact with all over the place instead of a single point of dispersal.

 

[DragonParadox]

The fun part is that we can. From what DP said earlier we'll keep the spell pattern of it for ourselves.

I'm assuming this means something like keeping the flower but spread the pollen around. Assuming that's correct, we could flip on AtP and leave trails of pollen around the city for people to come in contact with all over the place instead of a single point of dispersal.

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Yes, you do get to keep the flower.

 

[slenderman1942]

[X]Plan Hell's Coming With Me
[X] A bit of Sanctuary Tech would not hurt
-[X] Consult your armorer and acquire weaponry and armor for the squad, something fashionable yet deadly
-[X] Crown Questions
--[X] Where is Nora's ancestor being kept?
--[X] What are the security measures in regards to Nora's ancestor?
--[X] where would be the ideal place to unleash the hope plague in order to infect the highest number of beings in Mikaboshi's realm?

I just have this wonderful mental image of the squad being kitted out like it's a john wick film XD.

Also unrelated, but random thought, what would happen if we tried to use the crown on the book of the broken winged crane itself, 'cause, that thing is strongly linked to the Infernal exaltation.

Edit: changed the crown question about the hope plague

 

[DragonParadox]

We should still maintain secrecy of the Crown, which is one of the reasons I am not actually putting this into my vote (yet). So, this should be a secret we could plausibly have learned from someone. Ideally from Emma-O. Hmm, maybe formulate the question as "what is the most embarrassing secret of MIkaboshi that he knows is known to Emma-O?". This way we could further point the finger at Emma-O.

The other issue with this is that we lack means of delivery. I mean, Clippy might be capable, and we are bringing her (I think? Are we?). Speaking of, we should probably have some manner of wearable cyberdevil harness with ECM capability. @DragonParadox any sort of equipment like that in the Courts? Something small, wearable, with a self-destruct probably. With recording and transmission capability. Actually - do we have any secure short-range communicators? So we could communicate beyond line of sight.

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1. EMP grenades do exist, but nothing in the specific range you mention
2. Coms are an example of something you can vote for now.

[X]Plan Hell's Coming With Me
[X] A bit of Sanctuary Tech would not hurt
-[X] Consult your armorer and acquire weaponry and armor for the squad, something fashionable yet deadly
-[X] Crown Questions
--[X] Where is Nora's ancestor being kept?
--[X] What are the security measures in regards to Nora's ancestor?
--[X] Where is the best place to unleash the hope plague for maximum effectiveness?

I just have this wonderful mental image of the squad being kitted out like it's a john wick film XD.

Also unrelated, but random thought, what would happen if we tried to use the crown on the book of the broken winged crane itself, 'cause, that thing is strongly linked to the Infernal exaltation.

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It would work since it is not specifically just about Molly's Exaltation. It is looking inward that confuses the Crown trying to read itself, reading about itself from some other perspective, with another origin is fine.

 

[Yog]

We could use a question on the hope bomb for what happens if planted in certain places? It's not like we are gonna keep the bomb for later.

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Ok, yeah.

--[X] Where is the best place to unleash the hope plague for maximum effectiveness?

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This, I think, is a value judgement question that the crown cannot do. We would need to formulate it in some manner of objective values, I think.

EMP grenades do exist, but nothing in the specific range you mention

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No "personal wearable assistant" for special forces operatives, where the machine spirit handles stuff like electronic locks and security, and the operative handles the physical reality? Something to work on later.

[X] Plan Last Check Before the Road
-[X] A bit of Sanctuary Tech would not hurt
--[X] Wearable short range secure communicators for every member of the raid
--[X] A couple of EMP grenades
-[X] Crown Questions
--[X] Where is Nora's ancestor being kept?
--[X] What are the security measures in regards to Nora's ancestor?
--[X] What are the identities (for the purposes of BMI) of akuma or demons that are allowed within the vicinity of the facility Nora's ancestor is being kept at, who are not present at Wicked City right now?
--[X] What is the most embarrassing secret of MIkaboshi that he knows is known to Emma-O?

 

[BronzeTongue]

Except they're not actually the same thing. If you use Accuracy Without Distance there are charms that can activate on a successful hit no matter what so it is not literally, but if an exalt makes a choice to deal no damage it's because they made a choice to deal no damage not because they couldn't deal damage.

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This does not and has not ever mattered to the definition of perfect attack. This is as ridiculous as saying ranged perfects are a different category of thing because they don't synergize with melee damage boosters in particular, or that perfect dodges aren't perfect defenses because you avoid the damage instead of negating it.

There is a mechanical difference, but it's still a perfect offensive effect that deals damage.

Edit:

And for the record, neither charm you cite gives guaranteed damage. FSS is soakable and HTT is based on attack successes to generate bonus dice. Which are also soakable. If you rolled 0 to attack HTT would do nothing. It's unlikely that an enemy would escape unscathed, but not impossible.

This isn't the border, but if it was then solars don't have a perfect unless they also have the supernal strength charm.

 

[DragonParadox]

No "personal wearable assistant" for special forces operatives, where the machine spirit handles stuff like electronic locks and security, and the operative handles the physical reality? Something to work on later.

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Technological thieves tools? The hand could rustle something like that up, though it would involve risking a spirit in there.

 

[slenderman1942]

This, I think, is a value judgement question that the crown cannot do. We would need to formulate it in some manner of objective values, I think.

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would a better wording be, "where would be the ideal place to unleash the hope plague in order to infect the highest number of beings in Mikaboshi's realm?"

 

[Yog]

would a better wording be, "where would be the ideal place to unleash the hope plague in order to infect the highest number of beings in Mikaboshi's realm?"

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Honestly not sure, actually. Maybe?

Technological thieves tools? The hand could rustle something like that up, though it would involve risking a spirit in there.

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I thought that for spirits it has been established that unless spirit killers are used, they are immortal and on death return to Sanctuary / Molly's anima? For mortal-ish races we have to check, but I thought spirits were fairly safe.

 

[DragonParadox]

Honestly not sure, actually. Maybe?

I thought that for spirits it has been established that unless spirit killers are used, they are immortal and on death return to Sanctuary / Molly's anima? For mortal-ish races we have to check, but I thought spirits were fairly safe.

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Well yes, if they are killed, the problem here is that they might be trapped somehow, this is techno-hell if anyone would have those kinds of skills it would be Mikaboshi's demons.

 

[BronzeTongue]

Honestly not sure, actually. Maybe?

I thought that for spirits it has been established that unless spirit killers are used, they are immortal and on death return to Sanctuary / Molly's anima? For mortal-ish races we have to check, but I thought spirits were fairly safe.

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This is a hell though, if there's any place that contain a spirit after death it's a place built to trap souls. Not sure it's worth it.

 

[firefrog600]

Ok, yeah.

This, I think, is a value judgement question that the crown cannot do. We would need to formulate it in some manner of objective values, I think.

No "personal wearable assistant" for special forces operatives, where the machine spirit handles stuff like electronic locks and security, and the operative handles the physical reality? Something to work on later.

[X] Plan Last Check Before the Road
-[X] A bit of Sanctuary Tech would not hurt
--[X] Wearable short range secure communicators for every member of the raid
--[X] A couple of EMP grenades
-[X] Crown Questions
--[X] Where is Nora's ancestor being kept?
--[X] What are the security measures in regards to Nora's ancestor?
--[X] What are the identities (for the purposes of BMI) of akuma or demons that are allowed within the vicinity of the facility Nora's ancestor is being kept at, who are not present at Wicked City right now?
--[X] What is the most embarrassing secret of MIkaboshi that he knows is known to Emma-O?

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I think the funniest way to use the question is asking where placing the bomb would most piss off mikaboshi.

 

[DragonParadox]

Good night guys, see you tomorrow as two Exalts, a Fallen Angel and a vampire descent into Hell.

 

[Yog]

I think the funniest way to use the question is asking where placing the bomb would most piss off mikaboshi.

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"Where would a spontaneous release of massive amounts of hope most inconvenience MIkaboshi?" Or "what is the location rebellion in which is considered to be the most dangerous by MIkaboshi"? Something like this? I'll probably add it in the morning. Still, that's already a lot of questions... We should probably have enough foci from demon bodies and the plane salvage, but still.

 

[Sesparra]

So random question, are we ever planning on poking at that dragon's corpse that Molly's dad killed?

 

[Yog]

So random question, are we ever planning on poking at that dragon's corpse that Molly's dad killed?

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Yes, but there's a lot of prep to do. We would want at least the full exalted craft armor / protective gear set up, a lot more counter-spelling / dispelling / curse breaking capability, ideally that Dawn caste circle member (and an Abyssal one on top of that), etc. That's a gravesite of an elemental Dragon. Even by exalted metrics that's an epic quest.

 

[Degorium]

For a regular perfect attack you could if you botched. For SBS as I understand it you could spend willpower for at least 1 success under the same terms.

This is incidental because doing damage isn't the same as landing an attack and perfect attacks only ensure you hit, nothing else. The definition has never required anything more, especially not specific charm interactions.



Yes, exactly this.



The difficulty is set by the target's stamina though, so I think there's an argument to be made that the infernal doesn't manage to concentrate enough power to do damage. Similar to if you shot someone with GDG and rolled all 1s your bullet would hit, but at an angle and location that basically causes it to glance off.

Or fight through someone's magic resistance to effect their body in our case.

It acts like a perfect attack, so it seems like a distinction without a difference to separate it out.

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That's not actually true though if you score all ones on a Gasp of Dead Gods attack then you still deal anywhere from six to eight lethal dice of damage depending on the gun or 1 to 10 dice of lethal or bashing damage depending on the weapon. No amount of rolling ones affects the fact that the damage of a weapon is rolled after the attack. If an exalted has a damage adder that works on Willpower then they can literally match the cost of Boiling Sinner Stare to deal considerably more damage. (Ie. Dragon-Graced Assault (•), Heaven Thunder Hammer (•))

This does not and has not ever mattered to the definition of perfect attack. This is as ridiculous as saying ranged perfects are a different category of thing because they don't synergize with melee damage boosters in particular, or that perfect dodges aren't perfect defenses because you avoid the damage instead of negating it.

There is a mechanical difference, but it's still a perfect offensive effect that deals damage.

Edit:

And for the record, neither charm you cite gives guaranteed damage. FSS is soakable and HTT is based on attack successes to generate bonus dice. Which are also soakable. If you rolled 0 to attack HTT would do nothing. It's unlikely that an enemy would escape unscathed, but not impossible.

This isn't the border, but if it was then solars don't have a perfect unless they also have the supernal strength charm.

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So can we use Green Sun Nimbus Flare with Boiling Sinner Stare. I might be misreading fire and Stone strike but it says add automatic damage to a damage roll not added damaged dice to a damage Roll But automatic damage as in on top of the damage dice that you already has ADD this amount of damage dealt that may be me misreading but that's not the point. I get people think it's a distinction without a difference but there's a very real difference in how it works with the rest of our charm set and the game. The fact that gets to bypass soak at all is good the fact that it can fail at all means it's not a perfect attack. It may seem like a distinction without difference but the fact we can't use Green Sun Nimbus with it means it doesn't even count as an attack at all. It's considerably more similar to a spell than an attack by System. To be frank I'm just glad it doesn't have a keyword or something that allows shaping defenses to work against it.

There's a reason I called it a perfect damage effect but not a perfect attack. It doesn't work like a regular attack it doesn't interact with the system like a perfect attack would it doesn't interact with our charms like a perfect attack would it's definitely doing damage it's definitely an offensive usage but it's not an attack by most standards so why would I call it a perfect attack.

 

[Sesparra]

Yes, but there's a lot of prep to do. We would want at least the full exalted craft armor / protective gear set up, a lot more counter-spelling / dispelling / curse breaking capability, ideally that Dawn caste circle member (and an Abyssal one on top of that), etc. That's a gravesite of an elemental Dragon. Even by exalted metrics that's an epic quest.

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Ah… I wasn't aware Siriothrax was that up there on the dragon scale.
What would we even want to make of his bones? I feel like Molly's armor could use an upgrade but otherwise… maybe a proper Manse somewhere?

 

[the DragonBard]

[X] Yog

 

[BronzeTongue]

That's not actually true though if you score all ones on a Gasp of Dead Gods attack then you still deal anywhere from six to eight lethal dice of damage depending on the gun or 1 to 10 dice of lethal or bashing damage depending on the weapon. No amount of rolling ones affects the fact that the damage of a weapon is rolled after the attack. If an exalted has a damage adder that works on Willpower then they can literally match the cost of Boiling Sinner Stare to deal considerably more damage. (Ie. Dragon-Graced Assault (•), Heaven Thunder Hammer (•))

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Once you reach the damage roll you're in normal damage v soak roll off mode. Your smaller damage pool can be botched or soaked.

My point once again being that the damage is not 100% guaranteed for either charm. "But we could fail the roll" is not a cause to categorize it differently. Further, other charms in the set do not change the type of any other given charm. Synergies are nice, they are not what makes a perfect attack perfect.

If you deleted every damage boosting charm from the solar lists AWD would still be a perfect effect. The detail you are highlighting is noteworthy, but it doesn't mean what you're saying it does.

So can we use Green Sun Nimbus Flare with Boiling Sinner Stare. I might be misreading fire and Stone strike but it says add automatic damage to a damage roll not added damaged dice to a damage Roll But automatic damage as in on top of the damage dice that you already has ADD this amount of damage dealt that may be me misreading but that's not the point. I get people think it's a distinction without a difference but there's a very real difference in how it works with the rest of our charm set and the game. The fact that gets to bypass soak at all is good the fact that it can fail at all means it's not a perfect attack. It may seem like a distinction without difference but the fact we can't use Green Sun Nimbus with it means it's not doesn't even count as an attack at all. It's considerably more similar to a spell than an attack by System. To be frank I'm just glad it doesn't have a keyword or something that allows shaping defenses to work against it.

There's a reason I called it a perfect damage effect but not a perfect attack. It doesn't work like a regular attack it doesn't interact with the system like a perfect attack would it doesn't interact with our charms like a perfect attack would it's definitely doing damage it's definitely an offensive usage but it's not an attack by most standards so why would I call it a perfect attack.

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A duck is a duck is a duck. It doesn't change into a different sort of bird if it's sharing a pond with them. The presence of other charms does not define if something qualifies as a perfect attack or not.

All perfect attacks can fail to do damage if you roll poorly. All of them. This has always been how it works. Some other charms can trigger on making contact, but that has no bearing on the nature of the effect.

Putting it in some lesser category served no purpose at all save to undermine the one thing it's supposed to do.

 

[Yog]

Ah… I wasn't aware Siriothrax was that up there on the dragon scale.
What would we even want to make of his bones? I feel like Molly's armor could use an upgrade but otherwise… maybe a proper Manse somewhere?

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As I understand it, he's the equivalent of an Elemental Dragon. Like "the elemental dragon from whom terrestirals get their exaltations" dragon, if I am not mistaken.

As to what to do with it... Well, we have tons of options. One thing I proposed would be to make a new elemental dragon. A young one, with the capacity to grow. And who could turn people into pseudo terrestrials. This might also help with global warming.