Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
You listed Dex as 8 not 10.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
To avoid confusion, let us go back to what the question was about. Can an Internal Mana reserve be created. So what is Mana?
So Mana = chi, ki, essence, mana, orgone, prana, ionized electrolytes or any number of other things.
While WoD Darkness essence is a different thing, for the purpose of this argument, Mana = Chi or anything else really.
Now coming to the question of "Can IDU make a inner reservoir" you a literally awakening a Po Soul that gives a person SPECIFIC access to Demon Chi, which according to the above, is also Mana.
So I do not see why Mana cannot be stored in the reserve already gained by Awakening the Po Soul, given that both are specifically stated as being the same thing.
@DragonParadox your thoughts? If you combine that with the fact that Molly is an Infernal, where the Primordials literally shaped the raw essence of the Wyld into Creation, Olivia should be able to convert or at least store Mana in her Demon Chi Reserves.
Regardless, Id suggest going on to Boston anyway.
Olivia's precise loadout does not actually affect anything yet, since Molly wont be bringing her to Boston
She is a fulltime college student after all.
She has her own shit to handle.
Basically call it ideal woman, and leave it at that.
Its one of those things thats addressed in play, and doesnt need you to explicitly go to the trouble of rewriting the GIft.
I cant really argue for aesthetic taste; people have their own tastes, and I cant objectively fault that.
But its not a dhampir, its a notakuma variant.
The rules are....in flux.
1) Counter-attack power.
Specifically in response to Lydia and Molly and Lash getting swarmed and grappled by small groups of Outsiders in Vegas.
Molly in particular got pinned in one place multiple times, and the only reason she didnt take damage was because the other attackers were too wimpy to get through her armor.
Giving a ranged attacker a free counterattack, so she can free yourself and move away from melee range seemed relevant to a gunslinger who isnt trying to stand and fight a squad in CQC.
2)There is a limited amount of Powers available, and other things to cover.
It wouldnt help if I over-invested in one area, and then she got to the battlefield and cant do anything because she kept getting grappled, or someone put out enough smoke to obscure vision and choke her.
3) Sleep requirements turned out to be an issue in Vegas, as did fatigue. It seemed a nobrainer to try and cover it.
Especially since Olivia is a fulltime student in a Tier 1 school, and so has grades to keep up. If you expect her to go from murder-hoboing to dance class, you have to account for it in your arrangements.
Especially since Molly is planning to go to school in Boston.
4)I put out the raw numbers by themselves because they were pretty stark.
Those are decades, and in Lara's case, centuries' old vampires. If Fomor!Olivia can keep up with them with only 1-2 social Powers out of chargen, she's doing pretty good.
And as we saw with Lydia trying, and failing to avoid letting Lara know that Molly killed Eldest Fetch?
Molly can have a poker face all she wants, but if her companions dont match up, the person on the other side is going to read them like a book anyway..
5)I didnt think that was wise.
There is currently no indication that Shih Arts work for mortals with fomor powers, or Demon Arts, and there's a good chance that even if they do, Olivia and whoever her tutor is would have to learn how someone like her could do it, the same way Molly had to, but without the bullshit shortcuts of Molly being an Exalt.
Furthermore, something I think is overlooked is that Olivia is a fulltime student.
A fulltime student doing at least 30 hours a week who is currently also taking lessons in Sanctuary in her spare time, and hoping to help with war-party business.
Adding a third set of lessons in magic martial arts is untenable. And probably abuse.
Meantime, Molly is out there conducting regime change and capping Outsiders. People will respond to that.
The threat level is not going to drop to take Olivia's issues into account.
She doesnt get leisure to train for maximum efficiency.
Spending XP cant just be for maximum efficiency, it has to take into account the current situation
And the current situation includes shit like false Dragons throwing 18 dice of aggravated damage as a breath weapon, and Outsider miniboss squads. She needs to be able to spend freely in the knowledge that it will refresh in a scene or two.
===
I cant speak for aesthetic tastes.
But I'll point out that the only member of our circle with better Social is Molly. Lash comes close, but she's much less consistent.
And Lydia is well behind.
However. The fact that you are looking at an explicitly ranged build, where the biggest combat dicepools are Dexterity + Firearms (guns) and Dexterity + Athletics(hand grenades, throwing knives, bows, magic), and calling it a brawler does suggest that I havent explained it very well.
So I'll try again after dinner.
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Ah, yes.
She's still Dex 3, so after +5 Dex from Bestial Mutation it goes up to Dex 8.
After Lash gets her to Dex 5, she becomes Dex 10.
- Location
- Dallas Texas
Themes of the Fivefold Courts:
In light of the fact we are opening custom charms, we must ask ourselves 'What charms would molly have?'. While we can just reskin some of the other Yozi charms with Fivefold Court theming, I want to make a stong list of Defining, Major, and Minor themes that will make it easier to build charms around.
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Defining Themes
So go ahead and make charms big brains out there - I have some ideas but no clue how to really ballance them, so I'll post about those another time. Themes are, obviously, not set in stone and can be mixed or shaken when apropos. Hope this helps!
In light of the fact we are opening custom charms, we must ask ourselves 'What charms would molly have?'. While we can just reskin some of the other Yozi charms with Fivefold Court theming, I want to make a stong list of Defining, Major, and Minor themes that will make it easier to build charms around.
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Defining Themes
The first Defining theme of the hell is ironically not the hell itself, but the people within it, how they interact with it and have created a bastion of Culture, Trade, Learning, Law, and Peace. Molly's hell can be said to be primarily defined by the Cities, and to a lesser extent the tribes of both the jungles and wastes, and even the great prison. People, even inhuman ones, can band together to survive and thrive anywhere.
Major Themes-
Major Themes-
The Five Cities would be to most, the central attraction and feature of Molly's hell. They are where the vast majority of the population resides, where people live, learn, and interact as one would expect. Charms with a focus on the Five Cities as a whole would probobly focus on interacting with the structures of civilization and the people within, using minor themes for flavor.
Minor Themes-
The Individual Cities (Journeys, Laws, Scrolls, Fountains, Endings)
The Number 5
The Connection between places of Civilization
Large numbers of people
Technology (That Is Used By People)
Minor Themes-
The Individual Cities (Journeys, Laws, Scrolls, Fountains, Endings)
The Number 5
The Connection between places of Civilization
Large numbers of people
Technology (That Is Used By People)
The Palace is the very heart of hell, the seat of rule, with a throne which only a God-Queen could claim. It is an untouchable palace of crystal, a symbol above all else that shines upon all the rest of hell.
Minor Themes-
Twin Suns
Unreachable Authority
Distant Admiration
Minor Themes-
Twin Suns
Unreachable Authority
Distant Admiration
The Prision is a outlier, a rebellious civilization, both the birthplace of what lead to the modern cities and the final challenge that the Queen must conquer to become the master of herself.
Minor Themes-
Absolute Containment
(Futile) Rebellion Against Authority
Secrets Buried Deep Within
Minor Themes-
Absolute Containment
(Futile) Rebellion Against Authority
Secrets Buried Deep Within
The second defining theme of Molly's hell, The Wheel is pervasive effect within the entirety of her realm effecting every lifeform within to one degree or another. The ability to return upon death, again and again, free of what ailment or injury had slain you, for eternity. A life of eternal second chances, and a guarantee that you will only pass when you have well and truly embraced all your life has to offer.
Major Themes-
Major Themes-
The most immediately noticeable aspect of the wheel, Death and Rebirth, rising again and again after each time you fall, be it violence or sickness, accidents or natural disasters, you will always return somewhere safe for you and more whole then when you passed.
Minor Themes
Healing Fatal Injuries
Escaping To A Safe Place
Mercy To Others
Minor Themes
Healing Fatal Injuries
Escaping To A Safe Place
Mercy To Others
Eternity To Discover, the most notable social consequence of the Wheel, is that every member of the courts is immortal. Everyone has been around the block a few dozen times at least, and has forgotten more then they remembered, and are always eager to learn more.
Minor Themes
Lost Memories (Of Past? Lives)
Learning (Relearning)? Skills Anew
Leaving Behind Your Current Life and Skills
Minor Themes
Lost Memories (Of Past? Lives)
Learning (Relearning)? Skills Anew
Leaving Behind Your Current Life and Skills
The most subtle, and yet still pervasive function of the wheel is how it keeps all the populations in balance. Overpopulation is never a problem in any environment, since children are only born when there is room for them to grow, and that every being has a way to die permenantly, to allow new things to one day flourish.
Minor Themes
Fertility (More often preventing)
Final Death
Restrictions (For one's own good)
Minor Themes
Fertility (More often preventing)
Final Death
Restrictions (For one's own good)
The third Defining Theme for Molly's Hell is the opposition to civilization. It is the Wilds, The Ice, The jungles, that the people of the Hell must forge and conquer to progress. Even then it is only that very same nature that allows them to survive at all, the ring made from concentric storms providing life-giving warmth and light to all that stand beneath its glow.
Major Themes-
Major Themes-
Covering a majority of the planet, the Frozen Wastes are the greatest Wilds in Molly's hell. Near impossible to survive for being not specifically adapted to it, the Wastes carry both furious flesh rending storms and dangerously alien flora and fauna.
Minor Themes
Frozen Winds
Consumption
Vast, Near Endless Space
Minor Themes
Frozen Winds
Consumption
Vast, Near Endless Space
The Jungles lay in-between the cities, a Wilds both more familiar and yet still terribly dangerous and alien.
Minor Themes
Adaptation (Metal and Lightning especially)
Natural Poisons
Resources of Nature
Minor Themes
Adaptation (Metal and Lightning especially)
Natural Poisons
Resources of Nature
The Great Ring, a curved pillar of plasma across the sky, the bastion of life and protection from the harsh Frozen Wastes
Minor Themes
Protection from the Elements
Extreme Concentrated Heat and Light
Zone of Safety
Minor Themes
Protection from the Elements
Extreme Concentrated Heat and Light
Zone of Safety
So go ahead and make charms big brains out there - I have some ideas but no clue how to really ballance them, so I'll post about those another time. Themes are, obviously, not set in stone and can be mixed or shaken when apropos. Hope this helps!
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Well if we are going to do Homebrew charms @DragonParadox might I suggest that you make a thread mark where you put homebrew charms you have approved or we are going to find ourselves constantly re litigating as people forget.
CouncilOfShadows
Enlightened Schadenfreude Enthusiast
- Location
- England
[X] Yog
- Location
- Canada
Ngl, the image of Olivia just deleting some poor supernatural critter's head from range is too good to pass up.
Performance 5: She's the darling of Broadway, a world-class talent!
Stealth 5 & Firearms 4: And the sneakiest assassin you'll never find.
Edit:
[X] uju32
Your math-fu has convinced me; the only thing more precious to me than vibes is sheer killing power.
Performance 5: She's the darling of Broadway, a world-class talent!
Stealth 5 & Firearms 4: And the sneakiest assassin you'll never find.
Edit:
[X] uju32
Your math-fu has convinced me; the only thing more precious to me than vibes is sheer killing power.
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Yzarc
The Spark of Madness
Just keep in mind that you still need to roll that. So a guy with 1 dot in Stealth can still best her if the dice gods bless him.
1) That could make sense, but you're basically creating a situation where this is either not relevant frequently or her practical play style puts her in conflict for the same operational spaces the rest of the circle is in.
2) Plenty of things can all draw enhancements from the same bases and do different things. A certain amount of spread is required, but poison gas immunity, falling damage, and radar eyes are a bit eclectic.
3) Sleep wasn't, because of the potions, it was physical exhaustion from all the stuff we'd been doing. This sort of helps with that, but I'm not sold on it being that helpful compared to thealternatives.
4) You're not wrong, but my point is that a social character isn't just running with raw dice. They have support powers to manipulate the situation further. It's kind of a just good enough for it for not matter thing in my book.
5) Still not convinced it's worth the opportunity cost, but I see where you're coming from on the willpower at least.
On the rest; calling it a brawl build was a bit much, but I do think you're overstating some stuff there.
You're taking someone whose core power that we can't change is stealth and giving her a double stuffed monster transformation, stat buffs and gifts/powers that are primarily aligned for close quarters fighting, and parking her out in the open with a gun.
The impression it gives is that she's going to spend a lot of time trying to occupy the same slice of combat through different means isn't of doing something expanding the circle's operational capabilities.
Since I promised, here it is:
I want to to make Olivia Desh a mid range ranged fighter with good stealth and recon, plus the ability to engage at long range if necessary, but not to rely on it. And to ensure she can survive getting hit long enough to get away.
So she has 2 Actions a turn, allowing her to move and shoot without any penalties, and keep moving.
She can soak lethal with her full Stamina, and can soak some Agg without armor. And she gets one reflexive counterattack if she gets attacked in melee by surprise, so she can bash attackers in the teeth with her rifle before running away.
She gets X-ray vision, radar, sonar, and the ability to do crime scene investigations
She gets a power specifically so that if she has to jump out a window or off a roof, she can land safely. She can heal herself, and can run the 100m sprint in less than half the time of the world recrod.
Her reflexive countermagic is 9 (Wits 6 + Occult 3), which is higher than both Lash and Lydia, ensuring that if someone tries to nail her with magic, she has a reflexive defence. She has Path Sorcery: Mana Manipulation because it improves her ability to sense magical phenomena, and because she bought the Mana Background at max.
Plus Mind Shields 2 to further provide defense against mindfuckery in addition to Iron Will.
Furthermore, it pays attention her civilian social dice pools in her chosen interests.
She gets the ability to only sleep 1 hour every three days, so she can go to school AND do other thins..
So she gets Dexterity 3+, Charisma 4, Appearance 4, Athletics 4 and Performance 4 in her base form, which puts her at near the mortal maximum for dance, and the Artistic Gift Merit gives her a -2DC buff to most artistic endeavors.
And she can activate Sirens Veil to go to maximum mortal dicepools of 10.
CONTINUED
So how does it compare to Yog's plan, you might ask?
In Yog's Olivia has Dex 3+ Firearms 5 = 8 dice.
Mine has Dex 8 + Firearms 4 = 12 dice.
How does the Soak compare?
Yog's has Soak 3 because of Iron Mountain 1.
My plan starts with Soak 7, and can go up to Soak 10.
Both of these are before seeing Lash, where we expect to get Physical Attributes to 5/5/5.
How is the Stealth?
Yog's plan has Dex 3 + Stealth 5. 8 dice.
My plan has Dex 8 + Stealth 2. 10 dice
What of Performance?
Yog's plan has Charisma 3 + Performance 5. 8 dice.
My plan has Charisma 4 + Performance 4. 8 dice.
How about Counterspelling?
Yog's plan has it at Wits 5 + Occult 3. 8 dice.
My plan is Wits 6 + Occult 3. 9 dice.
What of the magic? Surely that's better.
Yog's plan has Psychoportation 2, and can teleport 29 m in a turn.
My plan can run 75 yards in a turn.
This goes on down the line, for the most part.
What of the Demon Arts? Black WInd for example, would give him 3x Extra Actions in a combat turn. Well, yes.
But here's the thing: Demon Arts only allow you to use them alone. You cant simultaneously use them and other magic.
And Black Wind, at least, has a risk of going into frenzy every time you use it.
Its explicit that for example, Black Wind says, and I quote:
So how does it compare to Yog's plan, you might ask?
In Yog's Olivia has Dex 3+ Firearms 5 = 8 dice.
Mine has Dex 8 + Firearms 4 = 12 dice.
How does the Soak compare?
Yog's has Soak 3 because of Iron Mountain 1.
My plan starts with Soak 7, and can go up to Soak 10.
Both of these are before seeing Lash, where we expect to get Physical Attributes to 5/5/5.
How is the Stealth?
Yog's plan has Dex 3 + Stealth 5. 8 dice.
My plan has Dex 8 + Stealth 2. 10 dice
What of Performance?
Yog's plan has Charisma 3 + Performance 5. 8 dice.
My plan has Charisma 4 + Performance 4. 8 dice.
How about Counterspelling?
Yog's plan has it at Wits 5 + Occult 3. 8 dice.
My plan is Wits 6 + Occult 3. 9 dice.
What of the magic? Surely that's better.
Yog's plan has Psychoportation 2, and can teleport 29 m in a turn.
My plan can run 75 yards in a turn.
This goes on down the line, for the most part.
What of the Demon Arts? Black WInd for example, would give him 3x Extra Actions in a combat turn. Well, yes.
But here's the thing: Demon Arts only allow you to use them alone. You cant simultaneously use them and other magic.
And Black Wind, at least, has a risk of going into frenzy every time you use it.
Its explicit that for example, Black Wind says, and I quote:
I agree with you with all of them except the Black Wind because that immediately falls into mercy in servitude.
If she is melee range she should teleport out not even try and fight, as nothing is going to make her relevet in melee. Going all in on stealth and range make much more since, not trying to shoehorn in something that she just cannot be good at.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I think that the Yog voters are banking on Lash tuning Olivia's physical Attributes up to 5 which does even the dice pools up a bit.
I do really look forward to applying some of uju32's formor crafting to the Alphas someday. Do you think that they are Dog enough for Lydia's canine training charm to work?
I do really look forward to applying some of uju32's formor crafting to the Alphas someday. Do you think that they are Dog enough for Lydia's canine training charm to work?
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- Location
- Dallas Texas
Ya know, looking it over, clear sight is nice but it doesn't exactly work with how her perception primarily works, and if you instead replace it with Crackshot+Graceful of uju's build that's a huge buff to her firearms capability. It's only capability is seeing through glamours and disguises, which is useful, but I would rather have the power then that 5 dot merit.
@Yog
Both reduce the difficulty of firearms attacks by 1, and crackshot allows further versatility, and Graceful is also flavorful with her performance 5
@Yog
Both reduce the difficulty of firearms attacks by 1, and crackshot allows further versatility, and Graceful is also flavorful with her performance 5
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Also play style differences, merit synergies, and growth potential.
We have to pick one path or the other here and stacking mutations doesn't have the same outcomes as disciplines.
The lower firearm dice at base play out differently when you include her DC reducers and dice pool boosters for how she'd use them.
That involves fewer shots, but the point of range, significantly better stealth, and repositioning capabilities is to facilitate forcing her ideal case more often.
On a strategic level there are differences in how you best use those abilities that allow for a stealth archer build to bring meaningful value to the circle.
What Uju is doing is at best grading the competing builds on their ability to do what he's building for and not comparing the impacts of them operating in their preferred environments.
The white room for close to mid range has Tiffany, Lydia, and Molly in it which is important context for the comparison.
Ivar
Dark Reaper
- Location
- Russia Moscow
Both plans rely on this and rely on this quite intelligently I will say. Just one will give less dexterity, but I think that's normal for me..
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Uju32's plan does indeed make a combat monster.
Will do when I have the time.
Can you explain what Crackshot actually does?
I am unsure what it actually provides, the wording is strange to me.
1) I am banking on her physical stats being raised to at least 5 by Lash. She can go up to 7 without causing observers to start suffering delirium in the upgraded person's presence.
2) Soak should be fairly irrelevant in my vote, but, again, physical stats should be increased later.
3) Teleportation is different from running. It scales far easier and cheaper, allows her to bypass obstacles, synergies with clairvoyance.
4) I am generally banking a lot on Olivia actually growing later, and receiving further support:
4.1) Gifted Fomor: Cybersenses - instead she'll be learning cyberpathy Path later
4.2) Seldom sleeps - malcoffee.
Your plan is more powerful "in vacuum" and "from the go". My plan leaves more room for support and for growth later. It is also, I feel, more palatable to sell to others as a straight upgrade.
Ok, there's an argument here. I am unsure mechanically on what crack shot actually does. Graceful does sound interesting. Let me think a bit, and also work some things out.
@DragonParadox how broad would you allow Higher Purpose to be? I am talking this merit from C20:
Because for a 1 pt. receiving -2 DC on all rolls for, say "in defense of Creation" or, more appropriate for Olivia "in defense of humanity" seems like an incredible deal.
I'll have to think a moment about what else I could replace clear sighted with. Because yeah, this can be supplemented with a glamour or magic.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Hell of Seven Burning Seas seems to be the most we known homebrew.
If you take that I would say Olivia's higher purpose would be reform in magical enforcement if you take that. Not as useful as 'in defense of Creation', but she barely knows what an Outsider is from that time Molly explained the Laws to her.
The aimed difficulties for called shots essentially for limbs it's a +1 difficulty to hit, for torso it's a +2 difficulty, for heads it's a +3 difficulty and commensurately you get more damage dice according to that increase in difficulty one two and three. So what Sharpshooter allows you to do is get those bonus damage dice without increasing the difficulty of your shot. You can find the range attack targeting a location table in Mage 20th anniversary page 418.
.......
We live in Chicago, a city of skyscrapers, tall buildings and restricted sightlines.
We are coming from Vegas, a city of tall buildings and restricted sightlines. We are going to Boston, a city of tall buildings, narrow streets and restricted sightlines.
We have literally never fought a battle in a place where a sniper would have done any good.
Corpsetaker we fought underground. Kattrin we fought inside a museum. In Cleveland we fought in corridors, underground and underwater. We fought Eiko inside a hotel, and the Will of Kakuri we fought inside an abandoned factory building. Arianna we fought inside an airplane. The Dragon we fought in tunnels underground.
The second Iku Turso fight is literally the only place we have ever fought outside in a broad space, and that happened on a fucking lake.
In none of these places have we ever gotten setup time for a sniper to do any good. OR the sightlines.
Guns? Guns are useful. Snipers? Are not.
There IS no long range.
More to the point, there cant be a long range, because its a quest, and the QM is not going to allow you to merrily kill people of any importance from outside of their own response range.
Thats like a narrative imperative, the same way the QM isnt going to jump you on the loo because it would be unfair and unfun.
Eclectic? These are all responses to threats that we have encountered IC in this quest so far.
Poison gas, hostile environment and the risk of falling we all saw in Vegas. Falling happened in the Chicago Museum, having to dive blind down a submarine chute. And underground, when we had to jump off a twenty foot high tower/staircase thing to rescue Lydia from Corpsetaker. Smoke screen underwater in Cleveland that we couldnt see through.
Molly and Dresden were the only people on malcoffee in Vegas.
Lash and Lydia were not. And while Lash can deal with fatigue poisons as Flesh 1, she cant do tiredness.
And Molly doesnt make malcoffee for more than herself, Dresden and Charity as a free action.
You are apparently missing the point that if a character out of chargen can match mid-tier supernaturals out of chargen.
Then its not especially difficult to shore up the rest. Especially given some of the other Powers available.
Look at Lydia, who basically has a social dice pool of 6 when she's not burning motes on an Excellency.
Look at Lash, even, whose best dice pools are when she uses Appearance 5, and even then caps out at 8 dice.
Otherwise, her best dicepool is 6. They dont do better routinely.
Hell, Molly's best social dicepool without Excellency is 8.
Her core power is Telepathy, but its PLOT.
Her alternative power is Psychic Invisibility. Its mass hypnosis, and it neither works on cameras or electronic surveillance or animals or presumably spirits, nor does it work on anyone with mental defenses. By the canon writeup. Which Yog posted.
I've spent the better part of two days making time to do the research and actually try to copy paste what I was doing, because I understand that not everyone has the book access to do so. Only to find out that noone besides Yog has actually been interested in the numbers or the details, and its been a vibes vote all along.
This is not fun anymore.
Did you actually check what the range of your teleport is before making these...claims?
Yog actually put it up; just noone actually looks.
Psychoportation 2 is 20 + (3*Intelligence) yards, which in Yog's plan is 29. Yards. A. Turn.
Lydia can run that in a combat turn.
WITHOUT an Excellency.
Your Dex 3 mook will catch you, no problem, even without any magic. And you are just down 1 WP.
My design would run almost three times faster on foot.
Not to mention that if you fuck it up and botch, like trying to teleport while under attack and eating that malus, or the enemy brings a couple mobile versions of the Teleport Wards (Conveyance 2 Ritual, its the same tier of effect as malcoffee) or someone able to do shaping, you get to eat 8 dice of Aggravated Damage when you teleport into a wall.
Or lose everything you have on you(armor, weapons, clothes) in the middle of an active battlespace.
Never mind the factually inaccurate assertions of shoe-horns and whatnot.
A character with Dexterity 5, Brawl/Melee 0 is still a better melee fighter than someone with Dexterity 2, Melee/Brawl 2 despite less investment in the area. No shoehorns necessary.
Which is something that should be abundantly evident once you look at dicepools.
Similarly, a character with Dexterity 8, Stealth 2 is better at stealth than one with Dexterity 3, Stealth 5.
Its not just Attribute OR Ability, its Attribute PLUS Ability that determines your facility at shit.
You try to argue enough Exalted lore here that you should know this, so why are you making this argument?
:sigh: