Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Mages are worse and better. They become stronger by becoming less limited by their theme...But their limits may not be as high as those of individual primodals...Well, if we discuss the available information on not very good arch-spheres. In fact, I think mages could be something like a B team project for primadals. In fact, Primodal and an army of mages of the high spheres is better than one Primodal or just a bunch of mages.

But that's my opinion.
Primordials all collaborated on creating a very small world on the scale of a universe.

Marauders do that on an individual bases often enough to be a know phenomenon. Mages can create laws of physics and space creation is common enough you can buy moonsized pocket dimensions with an absurd amount of cash. Voormas could kill entropy on a universal scale that is the equal to calming the entire wyld.

They are not the same and primordials are the ones that come up short.
 
[X] Sure, you did promise Olivia five months ago
-[X] Do not present it as the only path to power. Other options exist, or will exist, like calling her divine ancestor for a talk, or some of the splendor designs you have in your mind for the future
 
Primordials all collaborated on creating a very small world on the scale of a universe.

Marauders do that on an individual bases often enough to be a know phenomenon. Mages can create laws of physics and space creation is common enough you can buy moonsized pocket dimensions with an absurd amount of cash. Voormas could kill entropy on a universal scale that is the equal to calming the entire wyld.

They are not the same and primordials are the ones that come up short.
Thats an interesting claim. In order:

The Primordials created a reality from chaos. Created the very concept of there being a reality other than the Wild
Marauders temporarily bend the rules of an existing reality. They dont create it.
Mages alter the laws of physics and create dimensional spaces in space that already exist.
Voormas required the artifact of an existing hell-queen even to get as far as he got.

A sufficiently powerful archmage is a terrifying thing
But its not really fair to Mage to compare archmages and Primordials.
 
Mab explicitly knew enough that she came to the Halloween meeting with info to tempt us with.
Those who know the most in the Dresden Files often have the tightest lips.
In part because they understand the value of the information they have, and sometimes just to be petty.
Mab thought she knew stuff. That's not the same as knowing things about our exaltations. I'd like to point out that even Uriel flat out didn't know the nature of our exaltation - the kingdom caught him by surprise.
 
The Primordials created a reality from chaos. Created the very concept of there being a reality other than the Wild
Marauders temporarily bend the rules of an existing reality. They dont create it.
Mages alter the laws of physics and create dimensional spaces in space that already exist.
Voormas required the artifact of an existing hell-queen even to get as far as he got.
Not true at all, all of reality is created by mages. Consensus isn't a funny word for the mage canon it us true. Like creating space is literally space 5.

Requiring an artifact just means he wasn't strong enough to do it on his own. As seen by how it boosts his sphere dots.
sufficiently powerful archmage is a terrifying thing
But its not really fair to Mage to compare archmages and Primordials

Yes primordials fall far short. Like look at their world, its tiny even before it was destroyed. Hell they didn't even create the concept of existence. Fair folk existed before the primoridals as well.
 
Not true at all, all of reality is created by mages. Consensus isn't a funny word for the mage canon it us true. Like creating space is literally space 5.

Requiring an artifact just means he wasn't strong enough to do it on his own. As seen by how it boosts his sphere dots.


Yes primordials fall far short. Like look at their world, its tiny even before it was destroyed. Hell they didn't even create the concept of existence. Fair folk existed before the primoridals as well.
Mages also didnt create that thing because you know they needed to exist in the first place??? Also primordials were extremely op, SWLHN destroyed most of creation in her last attack, Malfeas body is literally hell and Isidoros is a living blackhole. They could have won the war if they werent idiots and if they really tried they could always traveled through time. Also Creation was much bigger originally and had much more energy around in the form of essence than dresden files or Nwod world, which is show by the fact that they created millions of lesser Kamis and earth Spirit to work on the world. And all that work was only for the purpose of essence production through human prayer. They are op, probably at the level of an archmage tower and you cant deny It.
 
I cannot account for not!akuma having access to Discipline 9 effects.

They can't. Mortals are limited to five dots in traits except Willpower and Humanity, and ranks in Demon Arts are capped by your P'o trait rating, which means Dhampyrs and people who have been IDUed can only get to five dots in those Disciplines.

Note as well that people start with a P'o rating of 1. Raising your P'o as a mortal is incredibly hard. You need to be pushed to the edge of death and have a psychotic break resulting in your P'o taking over from your Hun soul (Shadow Soul), which both supercharges you so you're more likely to survive and strengthens your P'o going forwards. We've been told that Mercy in Servitude makes a recipient immune to alternative soul states, which means that it's impossible for someone in Molly's service with an awakened P'o to strengthen it beyond one dot.

It's also important that a mortal's Humanity/Hun + P'o can't exceed 10. This shouldn't be something that Mercy in Servitude can help with, it's just a fact of how much soul you have without transhuman enlightenment. That means that people with P'o of 5 inherently become immoral. At most they can be Humanity 5, which means you're notably less moral than normal people who have Humanity 7.
 
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Mab thought she knew stuff. That's not the same as knowing things about our exaltations. I'd like to point out that even Uriel flat out didn't know the nature of our exaltation - the kingdom caught him by surprise.
These were Mab's exact words when we met:
"That task belongs to another, a mortal. I am the Queen of Winter and need no other title as you need none but the Green Sun-That-Was-Before-The-Sun upon your brow. Offer thine counsel and I shall promise to take it in the spirit it was given. The cup has now been drunk almost to the dregs, the sword not red with blood but black for how many times it has been spilled and only the staff is left to hold in place the Wheel."
She doesnt know everything, but she knows enough to recognize Ligier. That makes her very wised up.
She's Fae; she isnt going to knowingly lie to us.

EDIT
This doesnt mean she knows everything. Mab CAN be mistaken
But she is reasonably confident in the accuracy of what she does know. Which makes sense, with the Walker we fought recognizing us and greeting us as a Prince of the Earth.


Not true at all, all of reality is created by mages. Consensus isn't a funny word for the mage canon it us true. Like creating space is literally space 5.

Requiring an artifact just means he wasn't strong enough to do it on his own. As seen by how it boosts his sphere dots.
No, thats not true.
The Avatar Storm would not have wrecked everyone's shit if any of these claims were true. Nor would the Void Engineers have been reliant on the Cop.

The rules of Consensus Reality in Mage are established and managed by mortal expectations not by mages. Mortals obviously did not create reality, but they do modify how it works. Mages can try to move things into Consensus, but they have only limited influence. Mortal expectations are what make the Tellurian inhospitable to a lot of Archmages and people with high Dox.




When an Entropy 7, Arete 9 Archmage cannot make something but has to first seduce a hell-queen so he can vore her, and then use her authority to actually claim this divine artifact?
Then maybe you might consider that it may be a mite beyond them. Just a little.

The Avatar Storm would not have wrecked everyone's shit if your assertions of mage supremacy were real.


Yes primordials fall far short. Like look at their world, its tiny even before it was destroyed. Hell they didn't even create the concept of existence. Fair folk existed before the primoridals as well.
Exalted Creation is whats left after three apocalypses.
First the damage of the Primordial War happened. Then The Principle of Hierarchy blew up 90% of the universe, from land to concepts. Then the Balorean Crusade wiped out 90% of what was left.

You arent really grokking what Primordials are.


Being a badass does help with qualifying for a Dawn Exaltation, I believe, or at least with surviving long enough for you to be Exalted.
Nah.
It actually raises the threshold of what counts as heroic for a person. An untrained mortal attacking a vampire barehanded and winning is much more impressive, and likely to Exalt, than a trained soldier in full combat rig doing so.

Its just that some lines of work are sufficiently risky that Exaltation-worthy challenges are more likely to come your way.
 
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Everyone who has previously tried to game a Celestial Exaltation has failed ignominously. I dont expect that to change here, unless the QM explicitly allows us to pick OOC. Something designed to ignore the efforts of Primordials, and which did ignore the concerted efforts of Solars in the First Age has no narrative justification to be vulnerable to redirection now.

Apart from, say, the person who built an artifact that uploaded the wearer's personality into a Celestial Exaltation when they die and so it would then bodyjack the next person to earn the Exaltation?

Or the living Primordials who learned how to change the targeting mechanism and attach them to a demon who could act as a guidance and gatekeeping system, or the Neverborn who could make Abyssals with a similar gate.

Even a not!akuma with Black Wind 3 has the ability to take 4x combat Actions a turn, every turn, and does not run out of mojo to power it because Demon Arts explicitly generate as much juice as they use. Combine that with Demon Shintai 3 (+2 Strength, +2 Stamina, +1 Dexterity) and the free demon aspects per dot (say, Demon Armor x2 + Demon Weapon x1).

They don't. That's not how it works at all. There was some fluff for Black Wind which erroneously implied it did, but it was clarified in the Companion book. Demon Chi regenerates once a day, rolling the P'o rating against a base difficulty of 6 and recovering a number of points equal to successes.

That's the only way a Dhampyr can recover Demon Chi.

A rogue not!akuma who has somehow managed to get P'o 3 and so Black Wind 3 can take four actions in a turn and then will be out of Demon Chi until that evening, and it probably takes a couple of days to refill the tank until they can do it again.

Nah.
It actually raises the threshold of what counts as heroic for a person. An untrained mortal attacking a vampire barehanded and winning is much more impressive, and likely to Exalt, than a trained soldier in full combat rig doing so.

Its just that some lines of work are sufficiently risky that Exaltation-worthy challenges are more likely to come your way.

The Ex2 qualification isn't about being heroic, it's also about being extraordinarily capable. A solar has to be objectively as well as subjectively amazing.
 
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No, thats not true.
The Avatar Storm would not have wrecked everyone's shit if any of these claims were true. Nor would the Void Engineers have been reliant on the Cop.
Because they aren't fully grown into their power. An individual mage is not likely quality a primordial because they haven't gotten to their full power yet.
The rules of Consensus Reality in Mage are established and managed by mortal expectations not by mages. Mortals obviously did not create reality, but they do modify how it works. Mages can try to move things into Consensus, but they have only limited influence. Mortal expectations are what make the Tellurian inhospitable to a lot of Archmages and people with high Dox
No, wrong.

All mortals are mages, they just don't know how to do magic as an active thing.
When an Entropy 7, Arete 9 Archmage cannot make something but has to first seduce a hell-queen so he can vore her, and then use her authority to actually claim this divine artifact?
Then maybe you might consider that it may be a mite beyond them. Just a little.
Just needed entropy 9 like the artifact made it.
The Avatar Storm would not have wrecked everyone's shit if your assertions of mage supremacy were real.
I can make baseless assertions too. The primordials war wouldn't have wrecked everyone's shit if your assertion of primordials supremacy was true.

It doesn't make both our statements true.
Exalted Creation is whats left after three apocalypses.
First the damage of the Primordial War happened. Then The Principle of Hierarchy blew up 90% of the universe, from land to concepts. Then the Balorean Crusade wiped out 90% of what was left.

You arent really grokking what Primordials are.
That area is still less than the size of solar system.

I think you aren't gorking how complex and big actual universes are in comparison to a limited to creation.
 
Creation matters.

No world any Marauder has created did more than briefly influence the real world. Sure, Mages could in theory do a lot of huge stuff, if they reached 10 Arete, cast of the shackles of paradigm and also somehow overcame the effects the Consensus.
They don't and they usually can't though.

The Primordials created a world that is more than a delusion with a small area of interface to things that are actually relevant.
No Marauder or other Mage has done that.
Neither has Molly, yet.
 
Mages, not even archmages can mess with the exaltation in ExvsWoD (something I very much dislike, but it's still there). In-story, Kakuri's agents preparations to entrap and direct Molly's exaltations weren't ignored by either Molly (occult 5) or Usum (the coajutor). The exaltation can be contained as shown by our exaltation, and it can be contained by the arts of exalted, as shown by the Dawn exaltation. I wouldn't be so dismissive of the possiblity if I was you. It bears investigation at the very least.
As I've said before, those rules seem like something we shouldn't use.

ExWoD includes them for the purposes of a M:TA based game, the rules are a la carte for a reason. If you're playing a game with sorcerers and werewolves the mage stuff wouldn't come into play.

Dresden Files isn't M:TA, and doesn't have its themes or nascent Demiurges to work around. Paradox, Avatars, and the Archspheres have already been dropped from the game because they don't fit - why not this? It's not like we signed a suicide pact with Holden to abide by every questionable decision he's made.
 
Personally I feel like this sentence undermines you. I was mostly on the side that Exaltation are hard to arrange, but If an archangel can arrange it then so can the Exalted.
What he did only worked because it was an infernal shard.

The exaltation puts the demon in charge of targeting in excruciating pain until they pick a host, and Usum was trapped in a box that he wasn't sure he could make it out a second time if he bailed. More than anything else he wanted it to be done immediately and there was only one valid host in the same dimension.

A Solar exaltation all on its own isn't smart enough to trick; there isn't a person behind the wheel to game. Putting someone close to it could attract its attention, or it turns out that this particular one "likes" bows more than swords and fucks off to the other end of the planet since the nearest guys doing something interesting don't fit.

It doesn't give a shit about whatever's going on, so it has all the time in the world.

Uriel also had no way to really ensure it'd work, he had to guess and hope it'd be fine. Remember that we've learned that the hell charm isn't available to just any infernal, requiring some pretty heavy shit to be done across the lives of its past wielders without getting caught. Which Uriel could only see once we flipped it on.

So he basically set it loose without a clear look at the insides of the thing. Which sounds a lot like it working for plot reasons, and not because this was a replicable idea.

If putting them in a box with one option worked reliably then they would have done that in the age of legends.
 
She doesnt know everything, but she knows enough to recognize Ligier. That makes her very wised up.
She's Fae; she isnt going to knowingly lie to us.

EDIT
This doesnt mean she knows everything. Mab CAN be mistaken
But she is reasonably confident in the accuracy of what she does know. Which makes sense, with the Walker we fought recognizing us and greeting us as a Prince of the Earth.
She isn't greeting us as Prince of the Earth. I am fairly sure she is mistaking us for Ligier in that text you quoted. I am fairly sure that Mab got a very distorted understanding of what exalted in general are, much less what Infernals are. I still say that we should get some manner of focus for her at some point, and use it to learn what she knows.
That area is still less than the size of solar system.
Yes, and it's possible that the concept of "outer space" is one thing that was destroyed in three spheres cataclysm. Because that's something that could have happened, just like the concept of 4D space could have been destroyed. Or a concept of sight.
As I've said before, those rules seem like something we shouldn't use.

ExWoD includes them for the purposes of a M:TA based game, the rules are a la carte for a reason. If you're playing a game with sorcerers and werewolves the mage stuff wouldn't come into play.

Dresden Files isn't M:TA, and doesn't have its themes or nascent Demiurges to work around. Paradox, Avatars, and the Archspheres have already been dropped from the game because they don't fit - why not this? It's not like we signed a suicide pact with Holden to abide by every questionable decision he's made.
I generally agree - by this point Exaltations survived multiple ends and reboots of the universe pretty much without damage. If that didn't destroy them, then mages shouldn't really be able to. They are Autochton's greatest creations, and he's the greatest maker in the history of everything. Give him that, at least.
A Solar exaltation all on its own isn't smart enough to trick; there isn't a person behind the wheel to game. Putting someone close to it could attract its attention, or it turns out that this particular one "likes" bows more than swords and fucks off to the other end of the planet since the nearest guys doing something interesting don't fit.

It doesn't give a shit about whatever's going on, so it has all the time in the world.

Uriel also had no way to really ensure it'd work, he had to guess and hope it'd be fine. Remember that we've learned that the hell charm isn't available to just any infernal, requiring some pretty heavy shit to be done across the lives of its past wielders without getting caught. Which Uriel could only see once we flipped it on.

So he basically set it loose without a clear look at the insides of the thing. Which sounds a lot like it working for plot reasons, and not because this was a replicable idea.

If putting them in a box with one option worked reliably then they would have done that in the age of legends.
There are two possiblities:
1) The solar exaltation is under "Should the Sun not Rise" charm effect, where it's targeting system is directly controlled by its previous host. In this case, we can entreat with said host and convince them to select Daniel / someone who we find appropriate.
2) The solar exaltation is in free search mode. In which case it's an automaton with little in the way of free will and ability to alter its own decision making process. In this case we can use the crown to learn the algorithm by which it selects the host - the valuation system, the emergency overrides, etc. We could then arrange the situation in such a way that the person we desire to exalt gets the maximum possible score for the selection process.

The box one needs to put an exaltation with a suitable candidate is a whole separate universe, as I understand it, and that's not easy to arrange. Possible, but not easy.

Personally, I hope that Should the Sun not Rise is in effect, so our new circlemate also gets a voice in their head, that being an ancient egyptian godking. It sounds like a fun thing to happen.
 
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Yog has the right of it exalted are always called "Prince of the Earth". You can even stretch it for internal to be "Prince of the Green Sun". Mab did not use either from of proper address.
 
A thought - this is incredibly petty, but should we not be able to use BMI to get appearance 5? Maybe requiring some practice, but in principle this sounds doable.
 
The more I think of it, the less I like the Olivia option:
1) Wr have handled the situation already, she is in the process of training right now. We don't need to interrupt it
2) Fomorization is a low hanging fruit of supernatural powerups that I am fairly sure closes the doors to good stuff for her:
2.1) We know that her raksha ancestor cares enough to intervene directly following her mother's prayer. Soz getting him to power Olivia up seems like a natural path to take
2.2) We already have several designs that grant people permanent power ups, including turning them into pseudo dragon bloods
2.3) There's a solar exaltation ready to be released, and she's a viable candidate
3) It's hypocritical to transform her and not Daniel. And I don't want to change him until we at least try for the solar exaltation.

Hopefully she'll turn us down if we approach her, happy with her training and making plans of her own.

I'll probably change my vote in the morning.
 
Yog has the right of it exalted are always called "Prince of the Earth". You can even stretch it for internal to be "Prince of the Green Sun". Mab did not use either from of proper address.
I've said it before I'll say it again. Rather than guess what Mab knows or let her keep that leverage for future negotiations we should just use the Crown to see what she knows about Exalted or Molly's Exaltion.
 
@DragonParadox I assume you don't want to rule on particular charms until it's actually time to vote on them, but would you mind giving some input on the rough direction for this SGI alternative?

The first of all acts was to name. Each titan tearing themselves from the roiling chaos and defining themselves against it. A fact that no debasement could ever wholly take from them.

Echoing that act their heirs turn their hands on their own souls; naming each part according to their own design, thereby becoming in small part like those spoke themselves into being.

System:
The infernal spends 5 essence and meditates for at least one scene, turning inwards to look at their own soul. Once there, she must make a willpower roll to search her own memories for something that defines her.

It can be nearly anything; important memories, strong beliefs, trauma, what matters is that it's true and personal to the exalt. This can be very unpleasant, and lower successes should result in facing less comfortable things.

Whatever she finds, the infernal then names and begins the process of shaping into a new facet of her soul. She may have no more than her essence rating of these. If one is destroyed its body dissolves into iron wind, and the element of her soul it embodies is numbed in whatever manner is appropriate until she repeats this ritual at +1 DC to find and reform it.

If the infernal dies instead her essence manifests as screaming wind and flees to the nearest clone, killing it in her place. This wounds the infernal's spirit, dropping her one essence level that may not be regained by any means before she reforms the facet she replaced.

Once named facets may be embodied or dispelled with a thought, supposing they aren't currently destroyed and are in the infernal's presence, but she must pay 1 mote to copy over any memories directly.

As they are subordinate faces of the infernal's soul she may not use her charms through them to directly affect the world. However, as they are still part of her they may still affect themselves.

In general this means abilities that solely impact the infernal and do not rely on active interaction. The infernal may not use excellency through a clone any more than she may fire a shotgun with her nose, but can defend any part of her 'face' with equal strength. When doing so they share the infernal's essence pool.

By default the clones form as an approximation of the infernal as a mortal, perfectly loyal to its creator, fully aware of what it is, and in possession of her memories. However, for the same resource investment as making one outright she may invest them with the appropriate number of arcana features.

If the infernal has a hell they may spend one arcana feature point to provide an emanation style return function. By spending one willpower they may vanish in a burst of flaying wind to return to her hell. This counts as a clone death for the purposes of the charm, save for that it does not numb the associated elements of the infernal's soul as the facet slides smoothly back into place.

I mostly just want to know if there are any glaring red flags with enough lead time to fix them before the next build vote.


1) The solar exaltation is under "Should the Sun not Rise" charm effect, where it's targeting system is directly controlled by its previous host. In this case, we can entreat with said host and convince them to select Daniel / someone who we find appropriate.
2) The solar exaltation is in free search mode. In which case it's an automaton with little in the way of free will and ability to alter its own decision making process. In this case we can use the crown to learn the algorithm by which it selects the host - the valuation system, the emergency overrides, etc. We could then arrange the situation in such a way that the person we desire to exalt gets the maximum possible score for the selection process.
1) assuming the charm effects persist and that they're interested in paying attention.

2) Nobody has managed to reliably game this algorithm if it's anything so simple as that. Literally the guy who made it couldn't pick who got them once they were loose by design.

This is one of those functionally impossible things that can't be forced with any degree of certainty unless you remake the exaltations entirely. Which has only been done with the aid of the creators of the universe.
 
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