Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Holden is enough of a combat monkey/ rules lawyer to definitely be aware of what that language sounds like Lord knows he has enough ideas on how you should play the game already if you didn't mean for that to be a thing he definitely wouldn't have used that language.
Holden is just one person (not a team with editors and such) and the crafting-doc is not even a finished work.

Mistakes happen, that might eventually get fixed by some errata, or the Revised 2.5 Edition or whatever, if he is still thinking about this at all.
 
I'd read that as gaining as much Essence as you gain willpower, rather than a full refill?
That doesn't make sense to me in context ands also not what refill means. If you ask for a refill at a restaurant they don't give you a third of glass, they get you a full one. If you borrow someone's car and they ask you to refill it before returning it and you put in half of what you used they're not going accept that as valid.

Sometimes there's grey area between normal use and actual definition, but in this case there isn't a definition in the dictionary using refill for partial fill and nobody uses it that way in casual speech.

which is why it doesn't say refill willpower and essence, and none of the books refer to gaining one willpower like that unless they're also giving a specific quantity.

It's not any more bullshit than being invincible to things tied to elemental earth and then an additional element for each one point buy you add.
 
Holden is just one person (not a team with editors and such) and the crafting-doc is not even a finished work.

Mistakes happen, that might eventually get fixed by some errata, or the Revised 2.5 Edition or whatever, if he is still thinking about this at all.
Okay I am going to say this. The crafting doc is as far as I can tell from his production of The Black Vault which is the expansion on exalted versus World Of Darkness revised is finished it's just not formatted. This is powerful but in the charm set there are I think two different effects that do the same thing except those effects also give you a scene long I think nine point attribute boost when you use them.

Most of all when I said Holden is a combat wombat I definitely meant that he places it above pretty much any other consideration if there's an effect that lets you fight or continue to fight or in any way might affects a fight it's costed in a way that makes it seem like it's the most important thing in the world you can see that in the multi-attack charms being more expensive than letting you trap enemies in essentially a hell cityscape sub-dimension and fundamentally altering the value of a deal in the other person you are negotiating with charms within the infernal charms themselves.

Now if you're saying that the effect is too powerful I do not agree but I do not think the wording of refill Essence pool can really be interpreted in a different way than refill Essence pool.
 
[X] Plan tactics and strategy
-[X] Question the Sin Eater
--[X] What are the forces arrayed against us?
--[X] How does Dragon fight? What are his strengths and weaknesses?
--[X] Do we have to worry about our enemies fleeing, or are their plans bound to the location they are in?
--[X] Other that defeating our enemies in combat, is there anything else we can do to disrupt their plans?
--[X] What is it that you are holding back?


First four questions are tactical. The last one is strategic. If it's holding back a limited amount of entities, rather than a gateway, then we use the crown focus (for the scene) to learn their detailed natures, and then choose that maybe it's easier to just kill those.
 
If it's holding back a limited amount of entities, rather than a gateway, then we use the crown focus (for the scene) to learn their detailed natures, and then choose that maybe it's easier to just kill those
Remember if the Gate opens a good portion of America gets wiped. That seems to be what it's holding back and I highly doubt we can kill something capable of glassing a country right now or on our own.
-[X] Do we have to worry about our enemies fleeing, or are their plans bound to the location they are in?
--[X] Other that defeating our enemies in combat, is there anything else we can do to disrupt their plans?
This first one seems like a waste of a question to be honest, and for the second one I think you should phrase it differently. Something that includes the Sin-Eater like "is there anything you or we" instead of just we in case it can do something with the mantle in combat or beforehand to screw with the Dragon that we can plan around.
Not really we just need the Sin Eater to support Molly taking over of Las Vegas and then we can make/appoint a deputy to handle it for us.
Maybe we should ask if the Sin-Eater can temporarily give us the Mantle until we find a proper bearer and what that would entail since Mantles can be broken and limit you in certain ways.
 
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Remember if the Gate opens a good portion of America gets wiped. That seems to be what it's holding back and I highly doubt we can kill something capable of glassing a country right now or on our own.
Fairly sure that Iku-Turso (or however that's spelled) was capable of similar feats if left unopposed. And it's a matter of how the feat is acheived. It might be a matter of built-up energy. I think we need to know. Maybe we can pass through the gate (if there's a gate) and deal with the problem from the other side, for example.
This first one seems like a waste of a question to be honest, and for the second one I think you should phrase it differently. Something that includes the Sin-Eater like "is there anything you or we" instead of just we in case it can do something with the mantle in combat or beforehand to screw with the Dragon that we can plan around.
The first one determines at least some of our tactics. If they can flee, we need to devote someone (probably Harry) to preventing NeverNever access, for example. For the second - I would assume it's doing everything it can already, so the question is "what can we do, that you can't".
 
[]Focus on recontextualizing the situation and creating pretexts that give the Sin Eater leeway to aid against the Dragon without violating its pact with the Dragon.
-[]Feign communication difficulties and asking to be shown to the Dragon who acts as it's voice in the city
-[]Ask the Sin Eater what it can tell you about the Dragon and how best you can ... defend the Dragon against the Outsiders planning on betraying him.
 
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Fairly sure that Iku-Turso (or however that's spelled) was capable of similar feats if left unopposed. And it's a matter of how the feat is acheived. It might be a matter of built-up energy. I think we need to know. Maybe we can pass through the gate (if there's a gate) and deal with the problem from the other side, for example.

The first one determines at least some of our tactics. If they can flee, we need to devote someone (probably Harry) to preventing NeverNever access, for example. For the second - I would assume it's doing everything it can already, so the question is "what can we do, that you can't".
Alright I see the logic. I'm wary of going to what's probably the Outside to fight anyone though since we don't have an easy way back. If we end up trying it we should definitely wait until we have full essence and it should come after Sandra and the Dragon in any case.

I don't think the exact mechanics matter at all though in the vision iirc the Outsider shows up and America gets hit right after. Something capable of building up enough power to nuke a country isn't something we've ever fought and very likely isn't something we can deal with in combat. No sign at all that Iku could nuke a country in an instant, assuming that being in the heart of enemy territory didn't debuff him to hell and back,
if it had that kind of power our battle would've been more explosive. It wouldn't have bothered with our armor at all.

Before now seemingly no one was willing to oppose the Dragon. If the Sin-Eater can do more in terms of debuffing or whatever else why would it have before now? If the Dragon gets offed and the Sin-Eater doesn't have a replacement arranged beforehand apparently the Gate gets opened.
 
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Alright I see the logic. I'm wary of going to what's probably the Outside to fight anyone though since we don't have an easy way back. If we end up trying it we should definitely wait until we have full essence and it should come after Sandra and the Dragon in any case.

I don't think the exact mechanics matter at all though in the vision iirc the Outsider shows up and America gets hit right after. Something capable of building up enough power to nuke a country isn't something we've ever fought and very likely isn't something we can deal with in combat. No sign at all that Iku could nuke a country in an instant, assuming that being in the heart of enemy territory didn't debuff him to hell and back,
if it had that kind of power our battle would've been more explosive. It wouldn't have bothered with our armor at all.

Before now seemingly no one was willing to oppose the Dragon. If the Sin-Eater can do more in terms of debuffing or whatever else why would it have before now? If the Dragon gets offed and the Sin-Eater doesn't have a replacement arranged beforehand apparently the Gate gets opened.

Keep in mind that the arcane mechanism from the dawn of Egypt thinks a fresh Solar Exalted will be able to handle, or at least contain the enemy, it thinks that because it worked the last time. Rakhsa are odd and whimsical, they do not follow anything so logical as a smooth progression of power in all regards.
 
Keep in mind that the arcane mechanism from the dawn of Egypt thinks a fresh Solar Exalted will be able to handle, or at least contain the enemy, it thinks that because it worked the last time. Rakhsa are odd and whimsical, they do not follow anything so logical as a smooth progression of power in all regards.
It's also a Raksha, iirc those are vulnerable to "stories" more than might of arms.

Might be this one's especially vulnerable to a newbie, or someone it has caused tragedy for.

I didn't understand that part, actually. What was Lash's issue here?
The Sin Lash had in mind involved her and Harry and as few clothes as she could get away with.
 
I didn't understand that part, actually. What was Lash's issue here?

She intended to make out with Harry to summon the thing, she implied so last update, he is hung up enough on it that making up in public atop the remains of Orpheus the vampire would have pinged as a sin given that he would, unsurprisingly, have been into it.

And yes that is somewhat fucked up, remember who she used to be not so long ago.
 
Oh right, I forgot that detail since last time. Thanks!

And yeah... "somewhat fucked up" is pretty accurate.

Former Fallen do not perfectly well adjusted people make. If Molly were to guess as to why it is because Tiffany did not come at her decision to break with her maker from a sense of general morality or love for all mankind, but rather the entreats of a handful of people. Her empathy is a very limited and focused thing and she may find most rules of conduct and general regret over transgression as silly as the demon in Molly's head does.
 
Former Fallen do not perfectly well adjusted people make. If Molly were to guess as to why it is because Tiffany did not come at her decision to break with her maker from a sense of general morality or love for all mankind, but rather the entreats of a handful of people. Her empathy is a very limited and focused thing and she may find most rules of conduct and general regret over transgression as silly as the demon in Molly's head does.
At least the people whose opinion she actually cares about are generally well meaning. There are worse starting positions.

[X] Yog
 
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[x]Plan transfer of power
-[x]Here are the things that are going to happen.
--[x]I am going to kill the Dragon.
--[x]I am going to then fill the power vacuum your support in this world be appreciated.
That sounds a bit too much like volunteering to be the Dragon, who was the Sin Eater's bitch and not his boss.
Holden is just one person (not a team with editors and such) and the crafting-doc is not even a finished work.

Mistakes happen, that might eventually get fixed by some errata, or the Revised 2.5 Edition or whatever, if he is still thinking about this at all.
He released two different updates for crafting, it's possible this is an error but I don't think so.

Remember that this isn't as easy for us to abuse as it may be for the sin eater. That thing is constantly doing something that could be defined in a way that meets the standard, but a character is usually a little less convenient in the repetition and focus of their actions.

How often have we gained willpower this way in the course of the quest to date? How far out of our way would we have to go to make it happen more regularly?

It's possible, but it'd require actual work and planning like any of the other routes to expanded essence.


Remember if the Gate opens a good portion of America gets wiped. That seems to be what it's holding back and I highly doubt we can kill something capable of glassing a country right now or on our own.
Magically irradiating most of a continent I think. Wasn't the description that it'd head basically remove the most populace areas of Mexico too? I don't remember where the stopping point is past that, but it's not a regional US problem.

I really don't think even remotely risking that is a good plan. Especially in the middle of this situation. Get things stable and then consider how things might change.


Also, I'm very skeptical of the idea that every person with knowledge of this topic in the setting is actually wrong on the basis of the description indicating something was screwy with the portal.

Sure that might be the case, but if it was actually Godzilla's hibernation spot and not a door to mega hell I think it's unlikely everyone would treat it that way. We shouldn't be making plans on the basis of what we hope to be true because it'd be convenient for us.
 
That sounds a bit too much like volunteering to be the Dragon, who was the Sin Eater's bitch and not his boss.

He released two different updates for crafting, it's possible this is an error but I don't think so.

Remember that this isn't as easy for us to abuse as it may be for the sin eater. That thing is constantly doing something that could be defined in a way that meets the standard, but a character is usually a little less convenient in the repetition and focus of their actions.

How often have we gained willpower this way in the course of the quest to date? How far out of our way would we have to go to make it happen more regularly?

It's possible, but it'd require actual work and planning like any of the other routes to expanded essence.



Magically irradiating most of a continent I think. Wasn't the description that it'd head basically remove the most populace areas of Mexico too? I don't remember where the stopping point is past that, but it's not a regional US problem.

I really don't think even remotely risking that is a good plan. Especially in the middle of this situation. Get things stable and then consider how things might change.


Also, I'm very skeptical of the idea that every person with knowledge of this topic in the setting is actually wrong on the basis of the description indicating something was screwy with the portal.

Sure that might be the case, but if it was actually Godzilla's hibernation spot and not a door to mega hell I think it's unlikely everyone would treat it that way. We shouldn't be making plans on the basis of what we hope to be true because it'd be convenient for us.
You say that it might be a portal but we haven't gotten any solid information on what the fuck it actually is. Literally all we know is there is an outsider related phenomenon in this spot that if it's broken open using Outsider magic it's going to kill a significant portion of the continent that is it. It doesn't matter if it's gate or a being or entity at this point I just want to know what the hell is going on with it.

[X] Yog
 
You say that it might be a portal but we haven't gotten any solid information on what the fuck it actually is. Literally all we know is there is an outsider related phenomenon in this spot that if it's broken open using Outsider magic it's going to kill a significant portion of the continent that is it. It doesn't matter if it's gate or a being or entity at this point I just want to know what the hell is going on with it.

[X] Yog
It's not that I'm saying it's a portal*, it's the Winter Lady saying it's a portal. When they sent guys to ask about their area of primary responsibility and got what the High Sidhe thought was a snub they swallowed it then went home because they think it's a portal.

Think about that for a second; if pride had a family tree they'd be in it so often the damn thing would look like a flag pole. The up till this point the plan on their end was to just ignore the slight because they don't want a new front.

It's possible they're wrong, or that it's both because the portal is also alive somehow, but they are the very convinced and have reason to know what they're talking about.

The one line being referenced by to justify turning the scenario on its head is coming from the same source. Why is one of these two things they told us more trustworthy than the other?

* I am, but the origin of the claim isn't an inference I made or something.
 
It's not that I'm saying it's a portal*, it's the Winter Lady saying it's a portal. When they sent guys to ask about their area of primary responsibility and got what the High Sidhe thought was a snub they swallowed it then went home because they think it's a portal.

Think about that for a second; if pride had a family tree they'd be in it so often the damn thing would look like a flag pole. The up till this point the plan on their end was to just ignore the slight because they don't want a new front.

It's possible they're wrong, or that it's both because the portal is also alive somehow, but they are the very convinced and have reason to know what they're talking about.

The one line being referenced by to justify turning the scenario on its head is coming from the same source. Why is one of these two things they told us more trustworthy than the other?

* I am, but the origin of the claim isn't an inference I made or something.
There's a reason I said entity the first Outsider creatures we ever fought were claimed to be holes in the world that lead directly to the outside little tendrils of Greater Outsiders. Unless it's something literally like an outer gate it being possibly a portal is really not helpful for describing what the fuck it actually is. Literally for all we know it's a couple dozen of those little void dog things that we fought in front of Ebenezer and because mortal magic doesn't affect Outsiders super well they needed a God to sit on it and now it's been hundreds of years and the couple dozen void dogs are now a singular void Beast large enough for a hand of a great old one to pass through we literally don't know.
 
There's a reason I said entity the first Outsider creatures we ever fought were claimed to be holes in the world that lead directly to the outside little tendrils of Greater Outsiders. Unless it's something literally like an outer gate it being possibly a portal is really not helpful for describing what the fuck it actually is. Literally for all we know it's a couple dozen of those little void dog things that we fought in front of Ebenezer and because mortal magic doesn't affect Outsiders super well they needed a God to sit on it and now it's been hundreds of years and the couple dozen void dogs are now a singular void Beast large enough for a hand of a great old one to pass through we literally don't know.
It being a portal is the most helpful description of what it is.

The argument to date has essentially been that maybe it's just one creature or a back door for a small chunk of them and killing it solves the problem. Which is different than a sally port in reality's defenses that is too narrow for most broader assault.

There is no functional difference between it being a living thing we can potentially kill and an inanimate object we can potentially break.

On the little void dogs; Ebenezer could kill those with some trouble, and if a pack of them could irradiate continents they'd have done it already. This level of precaution wouldn't be used or tolerated for something that trivial.

If it was just something like that people wouldn't be paying attention to the technical truth over the practical impact; if they're talking about it like a portal it's because they're worried about things coming through it, not the precise anatomy of extradimensional Godzilla.
 
It being a portal is the most helpful description of what it is.

The argument to date has essentially been that maybe it's just one creature or a back door for a small chunk of them and killing it solves the problem. Which is different than a sally port in reality's defenses that is too narrow for most broader assault.

There is no functional difference between it being a living thing we can potentially kill and an inanimate object we can potentially break.

On the little void dogs; Ebenezer could kill those with some trouble, and if a pack of them could irradiate continents they'd have done it already. This level of precaution wouldn't be used or tolerated for something that trivial.

If it was just something like that people wouldn't be paying attention to the technical truth over the practical impact; if they're talking about it like a portal it's because they're worried about things coming through it, not the precise anatomy of extradimensional Godzilla.
I was using them as an example but I was also said that after a hundred years of sitting in a same place they combined into a large enough hole that something could reach through essentially they became a gate due to sitting there Ebenezer is a insanely powerful wizard wielding the black staff. Without either of those things if you were just one or a couple of shamans that came together and there are dozens of things that you really can't affect with your magic and can't really kill maybe the sin eater is a better idea.

There is a very real difference if it's a living portal versus an object portal object portal means if it's damaged too badly it explodes everyone's fucked. Living portal means a spiritual entity that we can kill and consume no explosion no one dies everyone gets to go home Happy except The Outsiders.

None of this changes the fact that this situation where something has to sit on a hole in the desert so reality doesn't fucking collapse will need to be rectified so I want to know what's in it or even what it is with an actual answer not a supposition or a Shifty maybe it's a portal.
 
the Winter Lady saying it's a portal.
But she isn't saying that it's a portal:
She laughs, shakes her head as if to clear it and starts again. "The Dragon's been there since 1905, this dragon at least, but his liege's been there since the youth of the world when men were just another hunter in the deserts and scrub lands. Ever wondered why among all the boring names this country has, or worse the insipidly 'inspiring' meant to trick some cretin to go out west and die to dysentery there's a place called Death Valley still on the maps?"


"The false dragon's master?" you prompt when it becomes clear she is not going to keep going without audience participation.


"You wish. No this was something from Outside, a being, a pathway, maybe both, Those old medicine men knew enough to be afraid for their lives and souls, for the lives and souls of their children and grandchildren unborn. So they called up a spirit of darker sort a sin eater and they bid it to hold the gate shut, bidding it to devour the unworthy who came close."
It's either a being or a portal, or maybe both (possibly in the way how Yog-Sothoth is described as the Gate and the guardian of said Gate in Lovecraft lore). Maeve doesn't know.
 
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