Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

uju32 · Dec 10, 2023

VOTE
[X] Plan Iron Price
-[X] Accept the Duel
-[X] Suggest that Titania/Lily obscure the Nfested nobles senses to deny Nemesis intelligence.
-[X]Turn 0: Imperial Primacy Mantle + All Things Betray: 1m,1wp
-[X]Turn 1: Shintai + Steelskin: 3m, 2wp
-[X]Turn 2: Viridian Legend Exoskeleton + Melee Excellency: 2m
-[X] Contingency: EIPP to trigger at need
-[X] Without Honor and Boiling Sea Mastery from Signature Charm
-[X]STUNT: Your senses sharpen to clarity as you pause, straining for everything you can get from the presence across the water. Then you nod to Titania. "By your leave." As she nods back to you, you continue "You should see to your defenses, queen; thieves sneak into the pantry when the homeowner is distracted." Not waiting for a reply, you step out onto the surface of the lake. Power unfurls around you and flattens the water agitated by the intruder, even as you assume shintai. The temperature around you plunges precipitously, the summer warmth of Avalon replaced by freezing rain and biting winds as your brass-shod feet leave not even a ripple on the surface of the water."You seem to have found newer associates to lead you around by the nose, thousand-horned. And fouler ones at that" The green light of your anima plays across your face, and illuminates the suddenly still water around you as you come to a halt, Usum in hand as all your eyes stare up into the pillar of darkness and water that is your foe. "I thought I taught you this lesson before, Old One."

EXPENSES
6m, 3wp

STATUS
Essence 9/15m
Willpower 6/9 wp
HP 27/27

Melee Excellency 4/4 turns
IPM: Immunity to mental fuckery. Scenelong
VLE: Buff to soak. Scenelong
Steelskin: Buff to stamina. Scenelong
Without Honor: +2 dice to all pools while cold remains
All Things Betray: -3DC to Perception rolls. + Perception to Initiative rolls.
Boiling Sea Mastery: -1DC to all rolls
Windborn Stride: x3 base speed. x2 Initiative pool
Anima: Surprise negator

SHINTAI MODE
Strength 5
Dexterity 8
Stamina 8 (4 + Steelskin 4[Avg of rolling Willpower 9 + Without Honor 2 at DC 8-BSM1])

Soak 23 (Base 3 + Shintai 1 + Ebon Scales 1 + Steelskin 4 + VLE 8 + Demon Armor 4 + Without Honor 2) at DC 4 (SWS + BSM)
HL: 27
Base Speed x6 (44 yards/turn x6 = 264 yards/turn)
Melee attack pool: 28 (Dex 8 + Melee 5 + Excellency 13 + Without Honor 2) at -1DC(BSM)
Melee defense pool: 28 (Dex 8 + Melee 5 + Excellency 13 + Without Honor 2) at DC3 (Dark Sun is DC4, -1BSM)

BronzeTongue · Dec 10, 2023

uju32 said:
VOTE
[X] Plan Iron Price
-[X] Accept the Duel
-[X] Suggest that Titania/Lily obscure the Nfested nobles senses to deny Nemesis intelligence.
-[X]Turn 0: Imperial Primacy Mantle + All Things Betray: 1m,1wp
-[X]Turn 1: Shintai + Steelskin: 3m, 2wp
-[X]Turn 2: Viridian Legend Exoskeleton + Melee Excellency: 2m
-[X] Contingency: EIPP to trigger at need
-[X] Without Honor and Boiling Sea Mastery from Signature Charm
-[X]STUNT: Your senses sharpen to clarity as you pause, straining for everything you can get from the presence across the water. Then you nod to Titania. "By your leave." As she nods back to you, you continue "You should see to your defenses, queen; thieves sneak into the pantry when the homeowner is distracted." Not waiting for a reply, you step out onto the surface of the lake. Power unfurls around you and flattens the water agitated by the intruder, even as you assume shintai. The temperature around you plunges precipitously, the summer warmth of Avalon replaced by freezing rain and biting winds as your brass-shod feet leave not even a ripple on the surface of the water."You seem to have found newer associates to lead you around by the nose, thousand-horned. And fouler ones at that" The green light of your anima plays across your face, and illuminates the suddenly still water around you as you come to a halt, Usum in hand as all your eyes stare up into the pillar of darkness and water that is your foe. "I thought I taught you this lesson before, Old One."

EXPENSES
6m, 3wp

STATUS
Essence 9/15m
Willpower 6/9 wp
HP 27/27

Melee Excellency 4/4 turns
IPM: Immunity to mental fuckery. Scenelong
VLE: Buff to soak. Scenelong
Steelskin: Buff to stamina. Scenelong
Without Honor: +2 dice to all pools while cold remains
All Things Betray: -3DC to Perception rolls. + Perception to Initiative rolls.
Boiling Sea Mastery: -1DC to all rolls

SHINTAI MODE
Strength 5
Dexterity 8
Stamina 8 (4 + Steelskin 4[Avg of rolling Willpower 9 + Without Honor 2 at DC 8-BSM1])

Soak 23 (Base 3 + Shintai 1 + Ebon Scales 1 + Steelskin 4 + VLE 8 + Demon Armor 4 + Without Honor 2) at DC 4 (Scar-Writ Saga + BSM)
HL: 27
Base Speed x6 (44 yards/turn x6 = 264 yards/turn)
Melee attack pool: 28 (Dex 8 + Melee 5 + Excellency 13 + Without Honor 2) at -1DC(BSM)
Melee defense pool: 28 (Dex 8 + Melee 5 + Excellency 13 + Without Honor 2) at DC3 (Dark Sun is DC4, -1BSM)

I like your stunt better, but aren't you concerned about stepping on a landmine?

Also, your benefits list doesn't include our speed charm passively doubling initiative rolls.

BoredMan · Dec 10, 2023

BronzeTongue said:
We're not sitting in a closed calm room where they can focus on us against a clean background.

Considering how bullshit the Archive has proven to be along with the fact that the Crown and the Archive are somewhat simular in the "information gathering" sense I don't think it would matter. In the very least the Crown likely isn't subtle at all and the Archive was able to sense Iku seemingly before Titania did.

BronzeTongue said:
Even detecting something doesn't necessarily mean they'll get a lot of useful information out of it.

Not much of an assurance but true. Still I really do think the Archive would get something substantial out of it.

Degorium · Dec 10, 2023

[X] Plan The Boom of Brass and Thunder
-[X] Accept the Duel
-[X] Suggest that Titania/Lily obscure the Nfested nobles senses to deny Nemesis intelligence.
-[X] Activate VIridian Legend Exoskeleton, Melee excellency when needed, Steel Skin
-[X] Dive into the lake to fight it in the water.
-[X] Activate shintai, and form a localized dueling arena, with a chilled air and iron sand hurricane bound to your will
-[X] STUNT: "Let none say that I shrink from defense of Creation. And before you start worrying, I'll clean everything up by the time I finish this little bit of pest control" - so saying, you step forwards, first close , and then to stand directly onto the water. As you do, serene look of concentration passes over you, and both you, and the world around you shift. Your mortal-looking flesh is discarded for the armored form of your god body, covered in balefire glowing sigils you know to proclaim your glory to come. In the five corners of the impromptu arena, banners of the Five Cities rise, connected through am impassable circle of black iron snow, which even now howls and tears through the arena of combat, rapidly freezing it to the point you start feeling invigorating. All this changes happen between heartbeats, so seemingly subtle and natural, that a mortal mind would likely not notice the transition. None present here can precisely be called mortal. The preparations complete.
"Thief and craven are bold claims for a broken parasite." Molly says in a bemused tone, "You glutted yourself on stolen dreams, then your keepers milked you for what little it was worth and let you think yourself king in the pasture" Raising an eyebrow and panning her gaze across the crowd before returning to her target, her voice took on an edge "I won my spoils fairly, defending innocents and facing you directly while my father worked with a boon companion to deal with your handlers. No thief am I, but if I were it would be the business of the ranch and not the cattle. Now speak truthfully of your purpose here, or go back to your pen. "
Or
[X] Plan Iron Price

BoredMan · Dec 10, 2023

Feels less cocky, showboaty to me. Also I don't want to use the Crown in front of Titania, Iku, Nemesis infected, Archive, and the Summer Court.
[X] Plan Iron Price

uju32 · Dec 10, 2023

BronzeTongue said:
Point remains that she had them and moving small groups is easier than moving an army.

Maeve made her play, but if Mab had wanted to stop Harry and the gang there was nothing stopping her from sending a cadre of Sidhe lords to do it. Hell, she can warp time to an extent in there. We don't see it in canon but it's remarked that it's the reason for certain sorts of faerie tales.

The Denarians managing to stave that off is one thing, but I don't buy that Harry would even notice.

There's a lot of shit around the events of Proven Guilty that remain unclear.
Lets just leave it at that.
Else I'll start writing dissertations.

All the Queens can warp time in the NeverNever.
We see Maeve do it as a major plot point of Proven Guilty.
We see the Mothers do it in Cold Days.

BronzeTongue said:
My theory is that it's a necessary part of maintaining their half step state between mortal and spirit. If they stopped periodically adding new mortal blood they'd eventually go full nevernever as a species, like a large scale version of what happens to mortals who live too long on faerie food.

Not a lot of evidence for it, but it explains why they spend so much effort being active in the mortal world beyond entertainment.

Plausible.

BronzeTongue said:
Usually I agree with you on stuff like this. In this case though gods of Iku's generation have mostly been retired for hundreds of years, he specifically has been in a supermax prison for a significant amount of time, and he's currently colluding with people like the Fomor and Outsiders.

I doubt he's that important, and if he is there is no shortage of people who'd love a promotion like that. If need be we can make one and use nuclear hatefire to refine his power into demon steroids to give them as a signing bonus.

The only thing that'd change my mind at this point is news that we'd be playing into their hands with this.

He's been in prison for millenia. Last time Im aware he had any contact with the real world was in the 1950s
We dont know what information he has, or has been fed, since his primary source of information that we are aware of are the Pathfinders and their sponsors.

And we have no idea why he was spared in the first place. Its not like gods cant die.

He's an asshole, lets be clear.
But being an asshole isnt usually a qualification for Final Death. This is the sort of thing I actually want to be sure about before permakilling people. Its not like stabbing a Walker, which I'll happily do no problem.

Its not like we dont know how to find him if we think he NEEDS to die. He isnt exactly free of his prison.

BronzeTongue said:
I like your stunt better, but aren't you concerned about stepping on a landmine?
Also, your benefits list doesn't include our speed charm passively doubling initiative rolls.

Its water in the heart of Summer.
If he can set up a landmine on the lake of Avalon, in the presence of Titania and Molly and all the watchers?
We deserve to get blown up.

Besides, thats why I spent Essence so that Molly would have All Things Betray running, in addition to her anima power providing surprise negation.
If I had to guess, the surprise is going to be some specialty weapon or spell.

Fair point, will fix.

Azais · Dec 10, 2023

[X] uju32

Goldfish · Dec 10, 2023

[X] uju32

Anaja · Dec 11, 2023

[X] Do like any reasonable nobleman would
-[X] Activate ATB, Charisma excellency.
-[X] «I accept your challenge, Dreameater! The hour after sunrise after my duty before the Queen is done, you will find your death here, wretched thing!»

[X] Plan Iron Price

BronzeTongue · Dec 11, 2023

uju32 said:
And we have no idea why he was spared in the first place. Its not like gods cant die.

Yeah, but if you're not an exalt then it involves a lot of bullshit to pin them down properly and make sure they won't come back, and still makes a mess.

The people who locked him up may not have had better options.

uju32 said:
He's an asshole, lets be clear.
But being an asshole isnt usually a qualification for Final Death. This is the sort of thing I actually want to be sure about before permakilling people. Its not like stabbing a Walker, which I'll happily do no problem.

It is when you work for nemesis without being mind controlled first. Unless we know he's needed it's better to make the line clear on this one.

uju32 said:
Its water in the heart of Summer.
If he can set up a landmine on the lake of Avalon, in the presence of Titania and Molly and all the watchers?
We deserve to get blown up.

Nemesis got him here in the first place didn't it? That's already pretty crazy. We supposedly know where all the Summer infected are and the court was already on high alert but somehow a guy who's spent millennia in a box and a a kill on sight brain parasite managed to sneak up on their capitol.

Yog · Dec 11, 2023

More replies later.

uju32 said:
It WAS a Raksha.
It is currently an imprisoned member of the Finnish pantheon.
Enemy of Creation, no idea; like I said, could be a dupe, or could be a willing collaborator.

That's a mask it wears. Like the one nemesis tried to create and Michael and co are putting down right now. We were told how it works - unshaped only can take guises from established mythology now, they lost the ability to apin their own shapes.

It's an enemy of Creation.

uju32 said:
I dont really think we need to know it at the risk of giving up a strategic advantage to a significant chunk of the setting

We very much do want. For example, it dying a final death could be a trigger to finnish apocalypse, causing stuff like volcanic eruptions. Us using shintai in Avalon might release an abyssal exaltation buried underneath it that no one present except nemesis knows anything about. Us lilling it might trigger some old oaths and cause Odin or someone else to be bound to be our enemy. It dying could destabilize its prison, and in turm destabilize other prisons. there's a ton of options here, a lot of them very bad, that we need to check for first.

Nemesis knows more than we do, and this is clearly a trap. Don't go into a trap without knowing what it does.

And we previously voted to check Lily fully expecting that the crown use could be noticed.

BronzeTongue said:
That works.

Do you think we'll want MHM too? If we're going to activate it then timing it to immediately follow the crown question would be most efficient because if we need occult excellency to parse outsider bullshit can use the same instance to handle both rolls.

Bashing isn't exactly going to impress this guy though.

We need to moderate essence use, as we still need to do exorcisms later

Alratan · Dec 11, 2023

[X] Yog

Yzarc · Dec 11, 2023

[X] Yog

Yzarc · Dec 11, 2023

BronzeTongue said:
Infernals can make extra attacks against a single target, Lunars just generate extra attacks without a rule in the base or the charm itself saying otherwise.

It's just like the counterattack charms that generate extra action attacks against whoever tries to hit you regardless of who you attacked this turn or what your last counter was aimed at.

Sorry for not responding sooner. Was late when I last posted and only now, I have the time to go through the books.

Ok so there are two things, well 3 things to take into consideration.

1. What is an Attack Action?

It is ALL the attacks you make in a turn. It could narratively be a single strike or a flurry of blows. But you only roll one attack regardless of how you fluff it up. Which leads to the next part.

2. How do multi-Attacks Work?

By Base Vampire V20 rules you cannot make multi attacks on the same target.

Each attack is rolled and resolved separately — multiple attacks made against the same target are covered by maneuvers such as "Automatic Fire" and "Three-Round Burst."

So what are "Automatic Fire" and "Three-Round Burst."?

Automatic Fire: The weapon unloads its entire ammunition clip in one attack against a single target. The attacker makes a single roll, adding 10 dice to her accuracy. However, the attack roll is at a +2 difficulty due to the weapon's recoil. Extra successes add to the damage dice pool, which is still treated as equivalent to one bullet. An attacker using automatic fire may not target a specific area of the body.

Three-Round Burst: The attacker gains two additional dice on a single attack roll, and expends three shots from the weapon's clip. Only certain weapons may perform this maneuver; see the Ranged Weapons Chart for particulars. Attacks are made at +1 difficulty due to recoil. As with automatic fire, the damage dice pool is......

To add more to this, here is how multi attacks are described.

Multiple Shots: An attacker with a fast firearm may try to take more than one shot in a turn. The attacker can divide his attack dice pool by how many shots she wants to fire at a similar number of targets, up to the weapon's rate of fire (multiple attacks against the same target are covered under maneuvers like "Automatic Fire" and "Three-Round Burst"). Each attack is then rolled separately.

So By base, you cannot attack a same opponent multiple times unless specifically allowed.

So that leads to Multi Action and its rules. By V20 this is the resolution.

Multiple Actions: If you declare multiple actions, declare the total number of actions you wish to attempt and determine which of the dice pools is the smallest. Then, divide that number of dice between all of your actions. If a character performs only defensive actions in a turn, use the appropriate block, dodge, or parry system. See Chapter Five, p. 248 for more information.

So you split the smallest dice pool between actions. So if you had 10 dice or if you are an exalted, 20 dice. You can take 20 actions or 20 attacks.

To put a stop to this BS, Holden specifically applied the V: DA20 rules where....

Multiple Actions
Exalted vs World of Darkness uses the multiple action rules from V20 Dark Ages. If you don't own that book, they work like this:
When you want to perform more than one action at a time, you must first declare how many actions you're going to take. Then, the first suffers a –1 die penalty, and also raises its difficulty by +1, with each action afterward increasing the penalty and difficulty by one additional point. If this would push the difficulty higher than 9, then no more actions can be taken.

Additionally, when using multiple actions, no more than one action may be an attack.

Design Note: This version of the 20th Anniversary multiple action rules was chosen chiefly because while multiple actions can be exciting and useful in moderation, watching characters roll out attack after attack after attack slows play to a crawl when it happens every turn. Many Exalts can trivially generate enormous dice pools, and the "split up your dice pool between your various actions" version of the multiple action rules
were a recipe for disaster in that respect.

Holden has specifically said two things here.
1. V: DA rules to prevent abuse by Excellencies.
2. No spamming Multiple attacks by default i.e you can only make one attack per turn.

These are his exact words.

Now lets look at the Extra Action part.

Extra Actions
"Extra actions" are actions generated by a special rule or power such as the Time Sphere, Celerity, or spending Rage, usually rolled with your full dice pool.

Unlike multiple actions, above, extra actions can and usually will allow characters to launch more than one attack in a single turn. All extra actions occur at the end of the turn, after everyone has taken all of their normal actions. In the event that more than one character is taking extra actions, these are resolved in the same Initiative order that characters used to act during the turn.

Now ADMITTENLY, V: DA is silent on if Multiple attacks can hit a single target or not. But given that by base/Core rule, which is the DEFAULT, with only Multi-Action being the exception, but even Extra Action rules are the same as V20.

Finally, all additional actions that turn (including actions gained through Celerity) occur at the end of the turn. If two or more characters take multiple actions, the actions occur in order of initiative rating. An exception is made for defensive multiple actions, such as multiple dodges, which happen when they need to happen in order to avert attack.

So long story short, I do not believe you can multi attack by Base because otherwise the Infernal Charm is massively nerfed. Lets look at the charms.
3. How do the Multi Attack Charms Compare?

LIMINAL CHARM
Unlimited Murder Works (•••••)
Resonance: Dexterity, Wits
The Liminal's anima momentarily erupts into a great obscuring fog, through which she flickers as a series of disjointed afterimages, each caught in a freeze-frame of indescribable violence. A moment later the phantasmal display collapses and the Exalt stands still and singular once more, but the corpses she has left behind are very real.

System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the Liminal may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than the lowest of her Dexterity or Wits.

DRAGONBLOODED CHARM
Ringing Anvil Onslaught (••••)
The Dragon-Blooded's attacks strike, one after another, like a smith's hammer shaping white-hot steel.
System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the character may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than the lowest of her Brawl, Melee, or
Firearms Abilities (to a minimum of 1). Terrestrial families often train their scions in multiple fields of martial competence to maximize the usefulness of this potent Charm.

LUNAR CHARM
Octopus and Spider Barrage (••••)
The Lunar moves like something out of primordial nightmare, either launching a flurry of attacks, or else splitting her extremities momentarily into several, perhaps even dozens, of darting tentacles and killing limbs.
System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the character may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than her unmodified Dexterity rating

SIDEREAL CHARM
Harmony of Blows (••••)
The Sidereal exists in harmony with the battlefield, letting the gleaming crimson lattice of destiny guide her into auspicious moments and opportunistic blows.
System: The Sidereal's base Initiative is Dexterity+ Wits + Essence rating. She may reflexively spend at least 1 Essence; at the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the Sidereal can make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than the highest of her Essence rating or Leadership Ability

ALCHEMICAL CHARM
Dynamic Reaction Enhancement System (•••••)
A secondary nervous system is woven across and throughout the Exalt's skin, radiating outward from her Exaltation Core. This network appears to be an array of circuit-board patterns tattooed onto the Alchemical, which glow while in use.
System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the character may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than the lowest of her Dexterity or Wits (after adjustments from Sustained Augmentation Charms).

SOLAR CHARM
Peony Blossom Technique (••••)
The Solar moves like ice on hot metal, like a deadly mirage, like an enraged angel amidst bullet casings and blood spatter.
System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the character may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than the highest of her Brawl, Melee, or Firearms Abilities.

ABYSSAL CHARM
Glorious Carnage Typhoon (••••)
The Abyssal becomes a black wind ravening through her opponents, leaving only blood trails and screams to mark her passage.
System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the character may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than the highest of her Brawl, Melee, or Firearms Abilities.

Now lets look at the Infernal Charm.

INFERNAL CHARM
Thousand Typhoon Hand (••••)
The Infernal moves so quickly she seems to split into a bewildering array of simultaneous phantoms, all striking against a single doomed opponent.
System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the character may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than her Athletics rating (minimum 1).These must all be directed at the same opponent.

Lets compare them.

All the Charms are at 4 dots with a few being 5. All charms are the same, EXCEPT the Infernal one who is paying the same Dots for.....what? Why was ONLY the Infernal Nerfed?

The Answer is that they were not. You cannot make a Multi Attack on a Single target by Default. The Infernal Version allows you to make multiple attacks at a single target for the trade off of not being able to attack multiple opponents like the rest.

The Infernal version is an Overkill on one target, which is in theme of Adorjan, while the rest is a Charm to deal with Multiple Opponents. Now there is one thing I want to admit. Only one charm was specifically called out in the way I am assuming Multi-Attack Works.

EXTIGENT CHARM
Crowd-Fighting Readiness (••••)
Ever outnumbered, the Metropolitan perfects her movements with Essence, allowing her to fight with
the strength of a multitude.
System: Reflexively spend at least 1 Essence. At the end of the turn, after all characters have taken their actions, the character may make two additional attacks at her full dice pool per point of Essence spent. She can make no more extra attacks than the highest of her Brawl, Drive, or Streetwise Abilities, and each attack must be directed at a different target.

So Comparing the above charms, only this charm specifically calls out the fact that you cannot multi attack the same opponent. The fact that this is not in any of the other charms may be a miss by Holden but I do stand by my assumption on Multi-Attacks.

@DragonParadox what is your take on this?

DragonParadox · Dec 11, 2023

Yzarc said:
@DragonParadox what is your take on this?

Having watched City of the Bull God on YouTube, in which Holden played his intention seemed to be that if you can find a multi-attack source from somewhere you can use them freely on whoever you want unless otherwise mentioned. The players fight a Lunar in Arc 2 and he absolutely uses his multi-action to try to focus down one of the players. I can't remember the episode unfortunately except that it was towards the end of the playlist.

Yzarc · Dec 11, 2023

DragonParadox said:
Having watched City of the Bull God on YouTube, in which Holden played his intention seemed to be that if you can find a multi-attack source from somewhere you can use them freely on whoever you want unless otherwise mentioned. The players fight a Lunar in Arc 2 and he absolutely uses his multi-action to try to focus down one of the players. I can't remember the episode unfortunately except that it was towards the end of the playlist.

Did not know that. Fair enough.

No idea why Infernals got the nerf and were the only ones to do so.

uju32 · Dec 11, 2023

BronzeTongue said:
Yeah, but if you're not an exalt then it involves a lot of bullshit to pin them down properly and make sure they won't come back, and still makes a mess.
The people who locked him up may not have had better options.

Its been a couple thousand years at a minimum, given the alleged timing of the myths where he showed up
If they wanted him dead, it could have been arranged just fine, especially with the known vulnerability of immortals during Halloween. At least, thats my impression.

BronzeTongue said:
It is when you work for nemesis without being mind controlled first. Unless we know he's needed it's better to make the line clear on this one.

We dont know if thats true.
Canon Lily and Fix both worked for Nemesis without being mindcontrolled, as did Thomas Raith, because much as we focus on possession and mind control, deception and manipulation has been far and away the major MO of the Enemy.

Like I said before, Iku-Turso's demonstrably an asshole. But we have no information about whether he's a dupe or a collaborator in this situation.A collaborator I have no trouble shanking out of hand; a dupe requires more consideration about where exactly he fits and what are the consequences of their death.

More information needed.

BronzeTongue said:
Nemesis got him here in the first place didn't it? That's already pretty crazy. We supposedly know where all the Summer infected are and the court was already on high alert but somehow a guy who's spent millennia in a box and a a kill on sight brain parasite managed to sneak up on their capitol.

Someone got him here.
I suspect that the Elder Narwhal that Nemesis is currently possessing has something to do with Iku-Turso knowing how to get into Avalon-of-Summer's waters quietly.

Not saying that Iku-Turso is Nfested, just that whoever pointed him at Avalon got his information from Nemesis/a Nemesis agent somewhere along the chain.
===
Overt Outsider magic is apparently distinctive enough to be recognizable by people who have seen it before according to canon Lash, and the fact that Titania isnt challenging Iku-Turso on it suggests thats not in play here. Not to mention that if he was overtly using Outsider magic, he'd have to know that a Fae kill-team would show up at his prison cell to put him down.

My speculation is that someone made him a (temporary)hole in his cell and juiced him with a bunch of power.

Now that could be a Nemesis agent undercover directly taking action, which is my leading hypothesis.
It could also be an agent of Emma-O making trouble for Molly by empowering an old enemy.
Or a Formorian agent finally taking some revenge for Molly spiking the Pathfinder op and shanking Rhys the Ragged.

Nemesis is definitely involved along the chain, but that doesnt mean that this dude knows that.
Wont be the first dupe.

Yog said:
That's a mask it wears. Like the one nemesis tried to create and Michael and co are putting down right now. We were told how it works - unshaped only can take guises from established mythology now, they lost the ability to apin their own shapes.

It's an enemy of Creation.

A mask does not fundamentally change your nature.
And Iku-Turso is not buff enough to be a Dresdenverse Old One like the type of entity they are trying to make a mask for, as opposed to just an old one.

Was he Raksha? Yes; so were the Fae, and Nemesis.
Is he still Raksha? I dont know; there isnt enough evidence to say one way or the other, and we know that calcification is explicitly something that can happen to Raksha in Exalted.

Enemy of Creation? I dont think there is sufficient evidence for this claim.
It's a sufficiently low-power entity compared to the heavy hitters(Molly used it as a benchmark for Seeker) that if this was true, it would have been put down permanently centuries ago, especially given the propensity of certain cults to go poking at its prison.

And given that its explicitly still bound to its prison, that would just get it killed by a Winter war party or the Wild Hunt.
I assume its not entirely brain dead.

Yog said:
We very much do want. For example, it dying a final death could be a trigger to finnish apocalypse, causing stuff like volcanic eruptions. Us using shintai in Avalon might release an abyssal exaltation buried underneath it that no one present except nemesis knows anything about. Us lilling it might trigger some old oaths and cause Odin or someone else to be bound to be our enemy. It dying could destabilize its prison, and in turm destabilize other prisons. there's a ton of options here, a lot of them very bad, that we need to check for first.

Nemesis knows more than we do, and this is clearly a trap. Don't go into a trap without knowing what it does.
And we previously voted to check Lily fully expecting that the crown use could be noticed.

We are literally in the heart of Summer, with the Summer Queen and the Archive, who are both professionally familiar with this entity. And the Archive, at least, is fully aware that Molly can permakill spiritual entities ever since we did it to the Walker at Lara Raith's party.

We were going to perform multiple Ancient Sorcery exorcisms in Summer, dumping the equivalent of Molly's entire Essence pool into the environment, and Titania had no issue with it.
I assume Summer knows their own HQ at least as well as, if not better than Nemesis.

Nemesis literally possessed Summer Lady Aurora four years ago, and had multiple high-ranking infiltrators.
If there was a ticking time bomb here, they had the access to set it off themselves years ago.
That they didnt suggests that it is unlikely such a thing exists.

===
Nemesis has had just two days to work with since Titania started purging her house.
Sure this is a counteraction on its part, but Outsiders dont have all that much overt resources in Creation, and have security considerations with regards to acting openly.

Which is why my speculation up-post is Iku-Turso is potentially being a dupe, manipulated at second or third hand by a Nemesis catspaw.
Potentially one among the Formorians, who we know have had dealings with him before.

===
We checked Lily because the juice was worth the squeeze.
We did it in a private audience with just Titania, Lily and Ivy, and risking discovery of the Crown by the only other two people present (Titania and Ivy) was a less serious consequence than unwittingly abetting Nemesis infiltrate the Summer Court.

Here, discovery risk isnt just two people, its the entirety of the Summer Court that Titania thought to bring as witnesses, and the stakes that we would be risking them for is much less urgent/important.
The juice is not worth the squeeze.

Thats my opinion.

Yog · Dec 11, 2023

So, a more detailed list of possible traps and tricks that I can see Nemesis pulling with this duel:
If we are dueling it:
1) The use of our power, or specific charm might be the intended goal. For example, shintai use in Avalon might have consequences. Or maybe Nemesis is planning to use something in order to make our intrusion permanent.
2) The permanent killing of Iku Turso might be the goal. We know that Raksha can only take masks from an existing stock. Does it follow that while one Raksha is masquerading as Iku Turso, others can't do the same? If so, getting rid of an imprisoned agent opens the path for a new one to slip into Creation. In this case, killing it with MiM is... counter-productive. Or it might be some mystical thing, like a prophecy or something else that's triggered by its death. Maybe there's an abyssal exaltation hidden underneath Avalon that would be freed when feeling a permanent death of an immortal? Or maybe Iku Turso's death is a step N in starting Apocalypse
3) Maybe the goal is to target us with its Death Curse. We haven't shown shaping defenses yet.

If Titania is dueling it:
1) It's a way to poison her somehow
2) It's a way to make her break some oath somehow
3) It's a distraction for something else

uju32 said:
A mask does not fundamentally change your nature.
And Iku-Turso is not buff enough to be a Dresdenverse Old One like the type of entity they are trying to make a mask for, as opposed to just an old one.

Was he Raksha? Yes; so were the Fae, and Nemesis.
Is he still Raksha? I dont know; there isnt enough evidence to say one way or the other, and we know that calcification is explicitly something that can happen to Raksha in Exalted.

Enemy of Creation? I dont think there is sufficient evidence for this claim.
It's a sufficiently low-power entity compared to the heavy hitters(Molly used it as a benchmark for Seeker) that if this was true, it would have been put down permanently centuries ago, especially given the propensity of certain cults to go poking at its prison.

And given that its explicitly still bound to its prison, that would just get it killed by a Winter war party or the Wild Hunt.
I assume its not entirely brain dead.

By "mask" I meant that it's Shaped, which in the modern Age can only be done through donning one of a number of guises, not something Raksha can do on their own. It's undoubtedly a raksha - it was used to produce gossamer after all.

One of the possible reasons for its attack is to get it killed, so the role of Iku Turso is freed and a new unshaped can slip in.

Earth-Destroyer · Dec 11, 2023

[X] Let Titania and her Court deal with this

I see no reason to indulge an enemy.

uju32 · Dec 11, 2023

Yog said:
By "mask" I meant that it's Shaped, which in the modern Age can only be done through donning one of a number of guises, not something Raksha can do on their own. It's undoubtedly a raksha - it was used to produce gossamer after all.

One of the possible reasons for its attack is to get it killed, so the role of Iku Turso is freed and a new unshaped can slip in.

1) My raksha lore could use some work.
However, calcification, IIRC, is also something that can happen to Raksha.And there's no indication that what Iku-Turso currently is is something thats changeable, unlike with many(most? all?) Shaped Raksha.

2) Gossamer is not a raksha-exclusive effect.
Sidereal Martial Art practitioners, both Sidereals and Solaroids, could extract and manipulate it with Quicksilver Hand of Dreams back in 2E. Keep that in mind.

3)I dont see how.
That would presumably just put the new dude inside Iku-Turso's cell; his being imprisoned is a core part of his mythology at this point.

And Iku-Turso presumably has enough of a sense of self-preservation to know what would happen if he's openly aligned with Outsiders anyway. Especially with the vast bulk of his self in a prison cell where anyone with objections can pay a visit to .....remonstrate with him.

Alratan · Dec 11, 2023

uju32 said:
3)I dont see how.
That would presumably just put the new dude inside Iku-Turso's cell; his being imprisoned is a core part of his mythology at this point.

And Iku-Turso presumably has enough of a sense of self-preservation to know what would happen if he's openly aligned with Outsiders anyway. Especially with the vast bulk of his self in a prison cell where anyone with objections can pay a visit to .....remonstrate with him.

The fact that he's showed up here shows that someone knows how to open the prison door.

And the prison might also keep people out and stop them from attacking him, or have some form of limitation that would free him if attacked.

The fact that he was imprisoned rather than slain is also suggestive that there was some reason he wasn't killed, either inability, prohibitive cost, or something else.

Yog · Dec 11, 2023

uju32 said:
1) My raksha lore could use some work.
However, calcification, IIRC, is also something that can happen to Raksha.And there's no indication that what Iku-Turso currently is is something thats changeable, unlike with many(most? all?) Shaped Raksha.

Calcification is death. The thing that Mab did to the fragment of Nemesis? That was rapid calcification:

CALCIFICATION
The Fair Folk are not natural to Creation, and its
rejection of their Wyld nature is reflected in the bane
of calcification. For a raksha to exist in the cold, sterile
environs of Creation, she must spend Essence, often at
a prodigious rate. A raksha present in Creation wearing
an Assumption Charm automatically loses one mote per
day fending off calcification, unless she carries a pennant
from a freehold (see p. 140). Carrying a pennant completely
negates the daily Essence loss. For raksha present
in Creation without an active Assumption, the rate of
Essence-loss changes to one mote per scene. For unshaped
raksha, it is one mote per tick. In neither case can carrying
a pennant negate this loss. When a raksha has expended
all of her temporary Essence resisting calcification, she
loses permanent Essence dots at the same rate she lost
temporary Essence. When the raksha has lost her last
dot of permanent Essence, she suffers calcification and
ceases to exist as a raksha. The exact form of calcification
varies. Some raksha turn to stone or amber or pillars of
salt, while others explode into glass shards or great piles
of dried leaves or flower petals. According to some tales,
a calcified raksha is instantly and permanently reborn as
a mortal with an Essence of 1, although such an outcome
occurs only at Storyteller discretion. Generally, however
dramatic the effect, calcification means that the raksha
is effectively dead as a character.

uju32 said:
3)I dont see how.
That would presumably just put the new dude inside Iku-Turso's cell; his being imprisoned is a core part of his mythology at this point.

And Iku-Turso presumably has enough of a sense of self-preservation to know what would happen if he's openly aligned with Outsiders anyway. Especially with the vast bulk of his self in a prison cell where anyone with objections can pay a visit to .....remonstrate with him.

That's arguable enough that I think it's worth considering. We know that right now there's a raksha wearing the guise of Iku-Turso. That raksha was bound and jailed. Presumably, another raksha cannot use the same guise while this one still uses it. This specific Iku-Turso was able to escape its jail - I don't think if another Iku-Turso appeared, it would automatically be jailed, it's not how it works.

TonedMite · Dec 11, 2023

Yeah, we cannot assume that Nemesis does not have ulterior motives here, or some plan with this.

uju32 · Dec 11, 2023

Alratan said:
The fact that he's showed up here shows that someone knows how to open the prison door.

And the prison might also keep people out and stop them from attacking him, or have some form of limitation that would free him if attacked.

The fact that he was imprisoned rather than slain is also suggestive that there was some reason he wasn't killed, either inability, prohibitive cost, or something else.

1)We know that people know how to open the prison door.

It was done in the 1950s, and in 2006, both in Cleveland, which is nowhere near the real world location where the events in hs myths happened. So we know the data is out there, and that real
Freeing him is another matter.

2) Possible. Unlikely, but possible.

3) Yes.
We dont know what.

Yog said:
Calcification is death. The thing that Mab did to the fragment of Nemesis? That was rapid calcification:

That's arguable enough that I think it's worth considering. We know that right now there's a raksha wearing the guise of Iku-Turso. That raksha was bound and jailed. Presumably, another raksha cannot use the same guise while this one still uses it. This specific Iku-Turso was able to escape its jail - I don't think if another Iku-Turso appeared, it would automatically be jailed, it's not how it works.

I dont think what Mab did to the Nemesis shard was calcification.

Calcification isnt necessarily death, though, according to the citation. Calcification is permanent change into a mortal, a Creationborn. And in this setting, this Age, Creationborn is a more expansive category.
I can see raksha to god-monster as a potential transition, in an age where the rules are different.

Point of correction:
WAS a Raksha. It hasnt been established that he/it is still a raksha. He/its offspring didnt turn out to be Fae-blooded mortals as far as we know either. Insufficient data.
In my opinion.

I dont buy it. If they wanted to impersonate him, they'd have simply lured him out of his jail cell and had him killed, whether by poisoning or just jumping and shanking him. Instead of going to the trouble of waving him under the nose of the Fae and the Infernal, which simply guarantees that the Fae will come to check both his prison and his identity.

uju32 · Dec 11, 2023

TonedMite said:
Yeah, we cannot assume that Nemesis does not have ulterior motives here, or some plan with this.

Of course it does.

My leading hypothesis is that while it probably has arranged for Iku-Turso to wield some surprise against Molly or Titania, the real goal of all this is to let Lady Ellaway, the Nfested they didnt catch, to sneak in and free some of the others.
Which is in line with the fact that Naked Wicked Secrets tells us that Nemesis likes to keep its bodies beyond pure utility.

Which is why I dont want Titania and her court doing the fighting.

Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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Dinosaurs came in many flavors. Like potato chips.

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The Spark of Madness

The Spark of Madness

The Spark of Madness