Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

They can't do those things and act like that while also maintaining the masquerade. In this hypothetical humanity would end up having straight up war with the supernatural as it realizes that these attacks are planned and organized by hostile powers.

Which would still be a hell of a lot more manageable and predictable than letting a bunch of Exalted loose with their completely out of context powers, general unpredictability and bullshit growth rates.
Mother Summer's literally apocalyptic plagues come to mind.

Going further - how many descendants of Genghis's Khan are there nowadays? One ritual from a Red Court, and they are all dead. All that without breaking masquerade.

Supernatural forces are quite capable of punting humanity back into... not middle ages, but rolling back any and all advances that threaten them institutionally, before humanity has a chance. Make no mistake - supernatural factions right now are in the position of strength. If they are faced with losing that strength, and when the alternative of knocking humanity down is possible.
 
There's also the issue that ExWoD Exaltations tend to go to those people who are already supernatural adjacent if not supernatural themselves, with Molly as a prime example. And because the Dresden Files is a less corrupt and degraded setting than WoD, they're likely to be friendlier to existing supernatural institutions, just like Molly is.

That isn't automatically a good thing. If a Wan Kuei Resplendent Crane Ancestor's elder dhampyr astrologer child exalts as a Sidereal and starts giving supernaturally good advice on how to enforce traditional 'virtues' on China, that is not a good thing. And not in a destroying the world sense, just because what they see as moral Molly would consider deeply immoral.
 
Edit: Forgot to say that the underlined errors are in order of reading:

The girl sitting next to him, studying the common room though a haze of steam from her chocolate, marshmallows bobbing up and down looks like she is about Amanda's age, straight blond hair curling just a little at the ends framing an olive complexion with just a bit of red in her cheeks from the Chicago winter. She gives a bright smile to Harry, perhaps noticing you all in order of height then her eyes slide from your dad to Tiffany. her expression freezes, pupils suddenly widening as the black swallows up the dark blue, a reflex of in eyes of flesh to turmoil much deeper.

Her not her

the eyes not in eyes

'Pythia' was often described as mad by her contemplates, not knowing if she was herself or any among hundreds of other women down though the long ages, but the child before you does not look erratic or the confused, if anything she seems filled with a dreadful clarity, her every move precise, her every word carefully calculated as she greets each of you in turn by name. But that smile lingers in the mind's eye— "Hi, my name is Molly and I guess I'm the sheriff of this pose on account of being the one to sniff out the outlaws"— and so too does the giggle that comparison drew linger in the ear.

confused not the confused

posse not pose

Hopefully I'll have the time to write up that vampire progenitor post today, but we'll see.
 
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All that without breaking masquerade.
In this hypothetical of yours supernatural factions feel threatened by mankind's increasing anti supernatural defenses, weaponry and overall awareness. This is a different more prepared and magically savy version of humanity that has become dangerous enough to warrant a significant response.

There are rules that magic has to follow and methods that an average human can use to defend against it if they are made aware. There are supernatural factions that would go out of their way to thwart plots to kill millions if not billions of people.
A bloodline ritual like that for example would be extremely noticeable beforehand and that sounds like the sort of thing the Knights of the Cross or otherwise would get involved in. Then we have Molly, people like Odin, the Archive, ect. It would be a fight not a forgone conclusion as your making it seem.

The monsters in the dark do not have a panic button they can just press and instantly win if humanity gets uppity. Your just trying to make it seem like the only possible way to win is by going fuck it and rolling the dice by releasing Exalted. Which is stupid.
 
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Then we have Molly, people like Odin, the Archive
I'm sorry, but to me this is hypocritical to the highest degree. "It's good that Molly exalted, but bad if more people exalt" is so fundamentally self-important that it aits wrong to me. "White God mysterious ways'ed the exaltation to Molly, but bad people will exalt and break Creation" is also not self-consistent.
The monsters in the dark do not have a panic button they can just press and instantly win if humanity gets uppity. Your just trying to make it seem like the only possible way to win is by going fuck it and rolling the dice by releasing Exalted. Which is stupid
The only way to significantly and reliably change the existent status quo is by introducing a new and unexpected factor, yes. I have known very few examples that say otherwise.

And, again, again, and again, it's not like I am saying "let's use a globe and ask where the objects referred to as exaltations by Uriel are, then immediately break them out" (actually, would this work?). Any such project would require a long and involved preparation stage, likely spanning several years.
 
I'm sorry, but to me this is hypocritical to the highest degree. "It's good that Molly exalted, but bad if more people exalt" is so fundamentally self-important that it aits wrong to me
Again Molly's judgement is abnormal and not truly standard because she is the player character in a quest. Otherwise I would 100% agree with you here.

White God mysterious ways'ed the exaltation to Molly, but bad people will exalt and break Creation" is also not self-consistent.
Sure it is.
Uriel merely nudged it in Molly's direction. Free will is a thing, it was a gamble that could've failed in a lot of ways. If simular ones are taken on a much larger scale the chance of them not panning out increases, and the more Heaven acts the more Hell can in return so it will always be a gamble.

And, again, again, and again, it's not like I am saying "let's use a globe and ask where the objects referred to as exaltations by Uriel are, then immediately break them out" (actually, would this work?). Any such project would require a long and involved preparation stage, likely spanning several years.
That's fair.
 
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The critical flaw of this plan is that it denies the opposition, who is in position of power right now, any agency. They aren't stupid either. When faced with a prospect of long-term slow decline from a position of power, you get Pearl Harbors, Russia-Ukraine war and other similar violent outcomes. Don't just stand there thinking they'll take it. If faced with a prospect of slowly but perceivably growing humanity, its predators wouldn't just take this happening.
The opposition is always a problem. I think boiling the frog would ultimately prove more effective than unleashing an immediate galvanizing threat in that regard.

We 'just' need to be better than them in a conflict they're not familiar with rather than triggering magically enhanced ww3.


Like right now you have autocracy of Red Court in South America, Autocracy of White Court in parts of USA and Europe, Autocracy of Jade Court (or outright Yama Kings) in China and other parts of Asia, and, above all, wizard autocracies all over.

This assumption of a negative default outcome completely ignores Molly's continuous presence in the setting, White God's continuous presence in the setting, White Council's continuous presence in the setting.

It ignores not only any and all preparations that we can and should make before opening the vault, but also any and all actions we can make afterwards. Would this be time-consuming? Hell yeah, I fully expect the next one or two turns game turns after breaking open the vault at least to be fully consumed by dealing with the released exaltations. Is this doable? Also yes, especially if we are not acting alone, but have previously released infernal exaltations one by one and thus have like-minded infernals running around, and have found abyssal exaltations (and possibly redeemed a few of those back into solars), and have prepared with the fey, and others.
It's not ignoring anything. What I'm pointing out is the potential consequences of our actions. You keep talking about all the good that could be done and underplaying the harm despite the fact that there's no reason to believe that the narrow range of good outcomes are more likely than the broad spectrum of failure states.

Given the degree of risk involved I think it'd be criminally irresponsible to go in without being absolutely certain we're capable of handling it. No level of preparation that you've described so far has been adequate to handle the fallout of releasing them relatively unopposed, much less while other try to interfere for their own benefit.

I mean, trusting the fey courts? They're on the list of problems to be solved for a reason.

I feel pretty confident in saying that we won't maintain total control if we start facilitating the release of the exaltations, and that the consequences of losing any of them are substantially worse than losing a handful of nuclear weapons per head.




@BronzeTongue
I see why Exalts can be a quickly escalating danger, but you also have to consider context here.
Molly is in this situation, where Ivy talks to her, rather than try to kill her on sight, because she's been acting reasonably so far.
Don't you think the kind of person who would call back forgotten horrors for fun or profit would have started this encounter with a headshot from Kincaid's anti-materiel ammunition?

The supernatural world in DF is not helpless and those Exalted who move too recklessly will die before they can secure enough power and allies to make big problems for everyone else while going down.
Molly could also have done that with any member of the Archive's organization once she knew it existed.

I'm not sure if I agree with your assertion growth rates. The supernatural world isn't helpless, but a Dawn on an anti vampire crusade could grow very quickly without actually hitting anywhere sensitive enough to get them stomped.

They're also not obligated to be stupid simply because they're evil*.

Even if/when they do fall they can still cause significant damage. Kemmler is the perfect example of both of these things. He flew under the radar until the late 1800s and the white council had to kill him 7 times to make it stick, during which he did things like orchestrate the First World War.


* Or true full on evil because they disagree with us on something important. It's entirely possible for someone to be on board with fighting vampires, but also use their powers to push toxic shit because they genuinely believe it.
 
@BronzeTongue Kemmler Only manages to do that because he's a master wizard and necromancer. Unless you're going to posit that the metaphysically massive exalts are all going to be perfect Masters of Sorcery on top of that. They're not going to actually be able to hide not effectively and not quickly. Also the first harry potter book reference I was making was to ollivander " I mean that Wand that did that to you He did great things, terrible things. Yes, but great."
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 29, 2023 at 8:58 AM, finished with 114 posts and 34 votes.
 
Arc 11 Post 12: Insight and Impediment
Insight and Impediment

4th of January 2007 A.D.

"Well I guess you could say it all started not with Summer, but with Winter last Halloween when I became aware from Lady Raith that there were pawns of the Enemy in Queen Mab's court. Looking into it I discovered that one of them was the Lady herself. I a had agreed to meet with her upon another matter...."

"She was in trouble for helping me," Lydia cuts in, stalwart friend through and through. "It interfered with the Queen's plans for—" she stops and sneaks a look at Harry.

"Such webs are strung between us as would snare a spider," Tiffany laughs. "She is asking you if you are alright with her explaining your part in this Harry?"

"Oh... ah, sure?" Harry's answer sounds more like a question.

"We had gotten in the way of the Queen's plans for me, certainly for my father, hence a meeting on Samhain," Lydia finishes firmly, obviously taking that for the no is actually is, though why Harry is looking at Kincaid with worry you're not sure. The man is clearly here to earn his salt not play political games. Is that jealousy, does he think I find him hot? He's not bad, if you are into the whole leather and enough firearms to overthrow a small country vibe, but I'm not. Tiffany? Still no, though whatever it is she seems to find it somewhat amusing.

Shaking off the questions for now you explain how you had exorcised Maeve and gotten out of Mab's bad books and into the good and, much to your surprise, the Archive does not question it, she nods as though she had expected it, as though she had known.

"We have been informed about that," she admits. It's hard to tell if she means that the True Venatori or the inner gathering of her many lifetimes lived. "At once worrying and welcome news as many things to do with the War are. Please, continue."

So you do, explaining the meeting with Lilly over the holidays how you had become worried over her troubles taking to the mantle which had fallen upon her shoulders unbidden. Here you choose your words with utmost care, not wishing to imply that Titania messed up, much as you might think so. Explaining the facts is one thing, but no one ever made it far in politics or diplomacy by laying their feelings about third parties on the table lightly.

From the kind of questions the Archive asks, you get the uneasy feeling of being watched all too closely. A good thing you have your own skills to slip though on platitudes.

Lost 1 Essence -> Now at 13/15

"So I made this." With a soft tinkle of many twined chains you lay the Red Adamant Owl on the table. Kincaid picks it up first and weighs it in a gloved hand for a moment. "Feels like blood gone up in smoke twisted round and round compressed. Closest thing I can think of is that drumstick..."

To your surprise the Archive giggles, then she snaps her hand over her mouth to keep in in. "No, nothing is like the Drumsticks of Doom. Probably just means it's new."

You and Lydia ask at the same time: "Drumstick of Doom?" Harry looks like he wouldn't have been far behind.

"There is this little town in New England, not that far from Boston though it might as well be another world, they had a Thanksgiving with what they claimed was a bone from the first Thanksgiving, I can absolutely guarantee to you it wasn't, but one stormy night about three years ago in May the town was attacked by a vampire, a proper old monster of the Black Court who must have been tossed into the sea centuries ago. It was weak, hungry, befuddled by the changes in the world. It still managed to kill a lot of people sadly, but when it holed out in the Museum for the night some teenagers from the town staked it with that old bone tied to an old mop handle. It worked alright and when they pulled it out it was changed, sacred."

"To what?" Dad asks, a touch confused, but mostly saddened by the loss of life.

"A lot of people celebrate Thanksgiving with diligence if not fervor," the Archive explains with admirable solemnity given the subject matter. "There's always been power in harvest feasts. In any case the Venatori picked up the bone as well as two of the people involved, I was the one who cleared it for use instead of being left to languish in storage, odd or not it is a weapon worth using and unlike most holy weapons no one is going to be after us to recover it. This—" she gives a once over to the talisman, running her fingers along the edges of the winds. "Is more sacred than holly, a distinction fine enough to cut a blade of grass tip to root most days, but not this one, definitely not this one." One short sharp nod to herself the girl seems to have come to a decision. "Can you make more of these Miss Carpenter?"

"You can call me Molly is you like, that 'miss' feels like shoes three sizes too large," you offer a little sheepishly. Between the sly humor and funny stories something tells you the girl behind the power also wants to be heard, but you cannot make it about her or she'd demure back to the station of her duty.

"Molly then," she agrees, takes one more sip of her hot coco. "If you can make two of these I will deliver the list of traitors to the Summer Queen myself, three and I will do my best to mediate the gifting."

"What about Katherine and..." you stumble on the boy's name for a moment. "Josh, I think his name was? They are in trouble and it's the kind that's sure to draw other people in it. New masks for old horrors..."

"It is not all that easy to do what our foes seem to be attempting, if it were our battles would all be hopeless, the new connections must be sanctified, or I guess one could say ratified. English isn't the best language for this."

"[Alternative Proposition Expedient-Thought-Flow,]" you answer, pouring Essence into the words to modulate the answer, the last thing you need is to make the Archive's companion start bleeding from the ears. Unlike the flat rejection of all compulsion that Tiffany's mind had offered, you feel the Archive's mind, or minds perhaps, flex into the shape of the primordial language so it 'only' costs you four motes to keep everyone comfortable, still more than enough to set the air blazing with balefire.

Lost 4 Essence -> Now at 9/14 (SCC: Harry; Michael; Kincaid; Lydia)

"[Outstanding questions of origin clarified]." The Archive seems to stutter a moment. [Pardon, complication, insufficient clearance to share information. Conditions of clearance unclear. Novel and unique circumstance, undesirable/frustrating]

"[Presence of randomness unfalsifiable, probability approaches zero],"
Kincaid offers darkly. Or as one might say in plain English: 'Man that sure looks lucky, I don't believe in luck.'

"[I express uncertainty...]" The Archive looks at your dad with a spark of trust, certainty in her eyes. [Not unwillingness to experiment, results could provide deep/long term utility]

[There is virtue/wisdom in taking time to consider]
Dad sounds oddly hesitant, though it is hard to tell if it is because of the means of communication or the matter at hand.

[Where the flame glows hottest there the substance of the world is more malleable and new things are wrought,] Lash offers her own perspective, clearly fascinated to learn more.

[I find moral fault in risking the young upon randomness-and-not-randomness.] Harry seems surprised to find himself siding with Kincaid, not too worried to give it much thought.

[Age of Self-upon-Self-Becoming reaches deeper than thine name-known kin-line.] The Archive actually pouts and she looks as cute doing so as one might imagine, not that you are planning to say so.

"[Untrue, age of soul-self though the circles passing...]"

The girl cuts him off, tapping on her cup. "[Water-here-present once drunk by Beasts of Dread Recall, water is ignorant of fact. Water-of-Self-Beyond-Self frozen, building ever-layers.]"

The last word is spoken with such force it makes the bottles behind the bar shake and clatter, earning the girl a chastising look from Mac, not that she pays it much mind. You've been a big sister long enough to know that expression, the look of a kind who wants to do something twice as much because someone had raised an objection. Doesn't mean she's wrong though does it?

Do you think it is a good idea for the Archive to push past her limiters?

[] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today

[] No
-[] There's probably a reason for those limiters (Advise that she never try to overcome her limiters)
-[] Take some more time to study this before taking it head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)


OOC: I hope all the primordial-speak isn't unclear, if any of it is don't hesitate to ask
 
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[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
 
Let's not encourage the Archive to break something potentially important to its continued existence.

[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
 
I'm sorry, but to me this is hypocritical to the highest degree. "It's good that Molly exalted, but bad if more people exalt" is so fundamentally self-important that it aits wrong to me. "White God mysterious ways'ed the exaltation to Molly, but bad people will exalt and break Creation" is also not self-consistent
Self importance isn't the driving factor; this only tangentially about Molly.

The universe rolled the dice and passed the DC for a good celestial. This doesn't change the risk of making another random draw. Not all of them would be bad, but the consequences of anything short of all of them being good could be catastrophic.

Then to top it all off, even if no Kemmlers exalt, you end up with the situation @Exmorri outlined while the exalts start to push their different agendas on the world. Then we'll either end up fighting each other or forming a new deliberative equivalent and become a de facto autocracy.
@BronzeTongue Kemmler Only manages to do that because he's a master wizard and necromancer. Unless you're going to posit that the metaphysically massive exalts are all going to be perfect Masters of Sorcery on top of that. They're not going to actually be able to hide not effectively and not quickly. Also the first harry potter book reference I was making was to ollivander " I mean that Wand that did that to you He did great things, terrible things. Yes, but great."
I'm confused what you meant with that reference then, because greatness without regard to the morality of what it's used for is essentially what a classical hero - as in the stars of ancient epics - is.

Most of those guys were assholes, even by the standards of their times.

Kemmler managed that as a master wizard yes, but it's not like exalts don't have a caste for that:

dayBreaK
Necromancers and dread savants who raised the dead to march against the living. Daybreaks are drawn from the ranks of twisted geniuses, mad scientists, delv- ers into forbidden wisdom, profilers of serial killers, and others whose do not fear what they find in the dark.
• Caste Abilities: Craft, Academics, Computer, In- vestigation, Medicine, Occult, Science, Technology
• Anima: By spending 2 Essence, the Daybreak may discorporate herself into the dragon lines of the world, reforming some hours later at the boundary of a nearby haunt. When her anima flares, she may, at will and as she desires, raise or lower the local Gauntlet or Shroud rating by +2/–2, as well as, if she desires, caus- ing ghosts or spirits touched by the light of her anima to become visible and audible in the physical world

If the black vault was open when Kemmler was young he'd have been a Daybreak.

This isn't just about what happens immediately, the genie isn't going to go back in the bottle once it's out. Even if we are only looking short term, it hasn't exactly taken us long to move up the essence tiers.
 
Underlined are the errors in order of reading:

"Well I guess you could say it all started not with Summer, but with Winter last Halloween when I became aware from Lady Raith that there were pawns of the Enemy in Queen Mab's court. Looking into it I discovered that one of them was the Lady herself. I a had agreed to meet with her upon another matter...."

I had not I a had

So you do, explaining the meeting with Lilly over the holidays how you had become worried over her troubles taking to the mantle which had fallen upon her shoulders unbidden. Here you choose your words with utmost care, not wishing to imply that Titania messed up, much as you might think so. Explaining the facts is one thing, but no one ever made it far in politics or diplomacy by laying their feelings about third parties on the table lightly.

From the kind of questions the Archive asks, you get the uneasy feeling of being watched all too closely. A good thing you have your own skills to slip though on platitudes.

holidays, how not holidays how

through not though

To your surprise the Archive giggles, then she snaps her hand over her mouth to keep in in. "No, nothing is like the Drumsticks of Doom. Probably just means it's new."

Drumstick not Drumsticks

"A lot of people celebrate Thanksgiving with diligence if not fervor," the Archive explains with admirable solemnity given the subject matter. "There's always been power in harvest feasts. In any case the Venatori picked up the bone as well as two of the people involved, I was the one who cleared it for use instead of being left to languish in storage, odd or not it is a weapon worth using and unlike most holy weapons no one is going to be after us to recover it. This—" she gives a once over to the talisman, running her fingers along the edges of the winds. "Is more sacred than holly, a distinction fine enough to cut a blade of grass tip to root most days, but not this one, definitely not this one." One short sharp nod to herself the girl seems to have come to a decision. "Can you make more of these Miss Carpenter?"

"You can call me Molly is you like, that 'miss' feels like shoes three sizes too large," you offer a little sheepishly. Between the sly humor and funny stories something tells you the girl behind the power also wants to be heard, but you cannot make it about her or she'd demure back to the station of her duty.

holy not holly

if not is

[Where the flame glows hottest there the substance of the world is more malleable and new things are wrought,] Lash offers her own perspective, clearly fascinated to learn more.

hottest, there not hottest there would be the correct writing in English, but this isn't actually in English so I don't know if you intended it to be like that.

[Age of Self-upon-Self-Becoming reaches deeper than than thine name-known kin-line.] The Archive actually pouts and she looks as cute doing so as one might imagine, not that you are planning to say so.

doubled up word

The girl cuts him off, tapping on her cup. "[Water-here-present once once drunk by Beasts of Dread Recall, water is ignorant of fact. Water-of-Self-Beyond-Self frozen building ever-layers.]"

doubled up word

frozen, building not frozen building again only if this is still supposed to be under English grammar rules.

[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)


You must first at least know some of your limits and how they work before trying to break/overcome them.
 
[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)

Yes, knowing what you are breaking, at least approximately, before you do it, is usually a good idea.
 
[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
 
[X] No
-[X] Take some more time to study this before taking this head on (Advise that she try to learn more about said limits and why they might be there)
 
[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today

No gods no masters.
Better to have Ivy call the shots than the Archive.
 
[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
 
I'm confused what you meant with that reference then, because greatness without regard to the morality of what it's used for is essentially what a classical hero - as in the stars of ancient epics - is
This has never been true. Classical heroes are supposed to be good. Its just their idea of good does not match with ours. When Odysseus tricks people that is a virtue just as ragnar swearing a blood oath for honour is a virtue.

People don't tell stories about people that are despicable to them morally at least as anything more than a morality cautionary tales. They can stumble and fail but ultimately they are supposed to be admirable.
 
This has never been true. Classical heroes are supposed to be good. Its just their idea of good does not match with ours. When Odysseus tricks people that is a virtue just as ragnar swearing a blood oath for honour is a virtue.

People don't tell stories about people that are despicable to them morally at least as anything more than a morality cautionary tales. They can stumble and fail but ultimately they are supposed to be admirable.

Eh... Jason and Medea would like a word. It is pretty clear from the framing of the tragedy that both the constant oath breaking and Medea killing her own kids are meant to be bad in various ways, the story it still about them, about their grand failings.
 
[X] Yes, you want to know whatever she can tell you about yourself and your Exaltation. You'll make her a talisman to resist her Mantle today
 
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