Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

I am fairly sure that using outsiders and being aligned with outsiders is mostly equivalent. And we don't know if they were known to be using outsiders before events of the books. Right now they are set pretty directly to war with Winter at least.
No more than those people who summon demons to barter information are infernalists.

There are always people who think they can use without being used in return. The witches in Blood Rites who were using an Outsider ritual to murder pornstars werent trying to destroy the world. The Red Court is trying to expand its reach and political influence, not to bring about Empty Night.

Note that we've only seen lesser Outsiders; none of them has ever summoned a Walker into combat.
They would probably say they are being careful.

It is however true that, to quote R. Buckminster Fuller: "Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."

Sorry, that was a mistype. I was trying to say that freeing (should we decide they be freed) captive divinity allows us to direct them at their jailors, while simultaneously weakening Red Court. And if only certain red Court nobles are powered up with stolen power, then this might increase political in-fighting in the court, as the top powerful faction becomes weaker, and the lesser powerful faction is not affected.
That is not something you can take for granted. They could just fuck off, and you have no way of making them.

Furthermore, we dont know who these gods.
We dont know what their nature is, or what their goals are, or if they've changed. You could very well be unleashing an entire pantheon of Iku-Tursos or Big!Seekers and end up in a "the cure is worse than the disease" situation.

I will repeat that its suggestive that the Reds imprisoned these guys and literally noone, no other pantheon or supernatural nation intervened during the struggle to get the Reds to stop. Hell, given what it takes to imprison gods(see Demonreach), I would not be surprised to find out that the Reds had help from other gods/magical entities in doing so.

EDIT
Basically, if the White Council has not tried to do this?
It suggests there are significant downsides for everyone, not just the Red Court, if the prisoners manage a breakout.
 
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No more than those people who summon demons to barter information are infernalists.

There are always people who think they can use without being used in return. The witches in Blood Rites who were using an Outsider ritual to murder pornstars werent trying to destroy the world. The Red Court is trying to expand its reach and political influence, not to bring about Empty Night.

Note that we've only seen lesser Outsiders; none of them has ever summoned a Walker into combat.

They would probably say they are being careful.

It is however true that, to quote R. Buckminster Fuller: "Those who play with the devil's toys will be brought by degrees to wield his sword."

No, that isn't correct analogy. Outsiders are axiomatically hostile to Reality. If you are using them, you are benefitting them. If you are benefitting them, you are harming Reality.

Red Court is essentially in the state of war with at least Winter Court. They declared it by attacking Leanansidhe (and infecting her with Nemesis is attacking her).



That is not something you can take for granted. They could just fuck off, and you have no way of making them.

And that would suit me quite well, as it would still weaken Red Court.

I will repeat that its suggestive that the Reds imprisoned these guys and literally noone, no other pantheon or supernatural nation intervened during the struggle to get the Reds to stop. Hell, given what it takes to imprison gods(see Demonreach), I would not be surprised to find out that the Reds had help from other gods/magical entities in doing so
Or they had outsider support. Or they exploited some manner of inherent weakness. Or they struck a surprise attack and then it was too late.


I can tell you why OOC:

It protects mortals against the Fae. It gives humans something that will fend off less-determined Fae attentions, and a weapon that is actually a credible threat of pain or disability or death.
Its one of the other factors in that equation that is Summer balancing Winter.
And yet, it doesn't affect Mother Winter and her literally apocalyptic collection of plagues. It's quite possible that this is not a God-intended designed, but a side effect.

And while Lily might usually not be careless about mortals?
You cant say the same thing about Maeve, or her ability to take offence to shit. Nor can you give Lily Iron-protection and not give that to Maeve when she asks without.....raising antagonism, potentially
That's a valid argument, but even if you object to iron protection (and note, it only makes it so Lily as affected by iron as humans are), I would argue that the Splendor should be 3 dot. Pick elongation of the curse or something. There's a qualitative difference between a dc5 willpower roll, and dc8. And having to spend a mote per day or a mote per week.
Im not.
I have no reason to; just like I have no reason to check for penicillin allergies if Im not prescribing its use.
But since you want to change tamper, you actually need to check.
Provide a question for Lily's tears then. Or do you only object to wasting some unique foci, but not others?
 
Uju what does that have to do with right now? The summer lady was just to keep her connection to her humanity. It is my hope that the 3 Dot Splendor will allow her to keep her humanity and hopefully resist the Mind control aspect of commands of the queen as well. Also she could still be killed by Iron as well as pretty much any other weapon it just reduces iron from aggravated to lethal. In the end if there was a winter Fey who exhibited the same traits and wanted to kill leahsenide I'd also vote to do the same thing for them.
 
Mother Winter in the Dresden Files has iron teeth. They dont appear to harm her at all.
And yet both Mab and Maeve are vulnerable to iron, as are the rest of the Fae.
Consider that maybe that was deliberate in whoever set the courts up.

Why? We dont know. Maybe we should look into that before tampering.
It appears to me that if it was intentional then the goal was to make it uncomfortable to be in the mortal world. Industrialization is what made it widespread, but for the purposes of DF gods and spirits of the earth would have had access to it much earlier.

Lily owning such an amulet doesn't seem like a security threat to me. It's possible this could have additional consequences, but it'd hard to speculate exactly what is a reasonable concern.

What we can observe is that saving her mortality but not removing the iron weakness is suboptimal. It's disappointing she won't be able to ignore iron entirely with SP, but not bursting into flames on contact is enough to let her engage with normal people on earth without having that thought constantly in the back of her mind.

As a matter of practicality she'd always have to be paying attention to the possibility, even if the odds aren't terribly high at a particular moment, simply because the consequences of carelessness are so unpleasant.

Which is basically leaving her with something constantly throwing her inhumanity in her face. Lily can't exactly forget it, but she doesn't need the psychological equivalent of a loose tooth that will never come out to prod at.

If we trade more such items to the fey I wouldn't necessarily include that defense because the goals are different.

The queens and nobles like Leansidhe are so hilariously dangerous that I don't think the iron weakness makes a difference, so selling them what would effectively be a prestige/comfort feature is relatively low risk. Selling it to random Sidhe barons on the other hand would be an awful idea, because they're weak enough that their preferred victims can actually feasibly use that weakness against them.
 
It appears to me that if it was intentional then the goal was to make it uncomfortable to be in the mortal world. Industrialization is what made it widespread, but for the purposes of DF gods and spirits of the earth would have had access to it much earlier.

Lily owning such an amulet doesn't seem like a security threat to me. It's possible this could have additional consequences, but it'd hard to speculate exactly what is a reasonable concern.

What we can observe is that saving her mortality but not removing the iron weakness is suboptimal. It's disappointing she won't be able to ignore iron entirely with SP, but not bursting into flames on contact is enough to let her engage with normal people on earth without having that thought constantly in the back of her mind.

As a matter of practicality she'd always have to be paying attention to the possibility, even if the odds aren't terribly high at a particular moment, simply because the consequences of carelessness are so unpleasant.

Which is basically leaving her with something constantly throwing her inhumanity in her face. Lily can't exactly forget it, but she doesn't need the psychological equivalent of a loose tooth that will never come out to prod at.

If we trade more such items to the fey I wouldn't necessarily include that defense because the goals are different.

The queens and nobles like Leansidhe are so hilariously dangerous that I don't think the iron weakness makes a difference, so selling them what would effectively be a prestige/comfort feature is relatively low risk. Selling it to random Sidhe barons on the other hand would be an awful idea, because they're weak enough that their preferred victims can actually feasibly use that weakness against them.
A very good point! Fae Courts were made by, at best, medieval humanity. Likely cavemen. They are not adjusted or optimized for modern industrial humanity existing at all. And they cannot adjust on their own.
 
No, that isn't correct analogy. Outsiders are axiomatically hostile to Reality. If you are using them, you are benefitting them. If you are benefitting them, you are harming Reality.

Red Court is essentially in the state of war with at least Winter Court. They declared it by attacking Leanansidhe (and infecting her with Nemesis is attacking her).
The people who do these things always think they can beat the odds.
Its not their intent to destroy everything, just to conquer it, or to leverage it to their own advantage.
Lord Raith apparently bargained for magic immunity. Nfested Maeve wanted to best her mother.

The Red Court infected the Leanansidhe to paralyze Winter while they and their allies pulled off a massive realignment of supernatural and political power. They arent at war with Winter. Or at least dont think they are at war with Winter.
They certainly arent acting like they are.

Doesnt mean that Winter isnt going to fuck them dearly for this
But like I said, there are always people who think they are special snowflakes who can beat the odds and warnings.
They invariably Find Out after Fucking Around.


And that would suit me quite well, as it would still weaken Red Court.
*points at Iku Turso*
Remember when they said that Iku escaping would have created a Freehold in the Great Lakes, in the middle of a metropolitan area of fifty something million people?

Now dump single or double digit paranoid and hostile gods(thats baseline after several hundred years of imprisonment) in a geographical area encompassing 9-digit humans where they believe they have a geographical and historic claim.
Or where humans or other spirits have occupied something they considered theirs

And I'm not even counting the possibility they are actually evil.
Or just very alien. Everyone potentially loses.

We do not want to be responsible for anything that results in civilian deaths
Especially not civilian deaths that potentially are in the five figure range or higher.
That would be a mortal wound, reputation wise.

Or they had outsider support. Or they exploited some manner of inherent weakness. Or they struck a surprise attack and then it was too late.
1)They did not have Outsider help, that I would bet on. That would have invited their annihilation by everyone else.
Lea wouldnt be going to Red Court parties several hundred years later.

2) Inherent weakness is possible but unlikely; the pantheon in question wouldnt have survived so long with something like that

3)Surprise attack is only an equalizer among peers; a bunch of monkeys surprise-attacking an elephant isnt doing shit.
And if these were gods, they would outmass them significantly.

And yet, it doesn't affect Mother Winter and her literally apocalyptic collection of plagues. It's quite possible that this is not a God-intended designed, but a side effect.
Mother Winter has no plagues. Thats Mother Summer.

The Mothers have too much weight of mojo to come to Reality.
Thats why they have always stayed in the NeverNever.
When Dresden summoned Mother Winter, she dragged him into the NeverNever

Mortals are not at risk from the Mothers. Only dumbass wizards are.

That's a valid argument, but even if you object to iron protection (and note, it only makes it so Lily as affected by iron as humans are), I would argue that the Splendor should be 3 dot. Pick elongation of the curse or something. There's a qualitative difference between a dc5 willpower roll, and dc8. And having to spend a mote per day or a mote per week.
I have made my arguments against this
I dont see a reason to rehash this.

Provide a question for Lily's tears then. Or do you only object to wasting some unique foci, but not others?
Ive been busy.
It didnt occur to me that this was the first AP action.
Using it to scan Summer for Nemesis infiltration seems reasonable enough, and a good first step.

A very good point! Fae Courts were made by, at best, medieval humanity. Likely cavemen. They are not adjusted or optimized for modern industrial humanity existing at all. And they cannot adjust on their own.
No they werent.
Medieval humanity made the Fae? With which power?
Mortal hands had nothing to do with the Fae Courts.
 
Uju what does that have to do with right now? The summer lady was just to keep her connection to her humanity. It is my hope that the 3 Dot Splendor will allow her to keep her humanity and hopefully resist the Mind control aspect of commands of the queen as well. Also she could still be killed by Iron as well as pretty much any other weapon it just reduces iron from aggravated to lethal. In the end if there was a winter Fey who exhibited the same traits and wanted to kill leahsenide I'd also vote to do the same thing for them.
A 2-dot Splendor will do that without hopefully overdoing it, and allows us to upgrade if there are no indications of issues.
3-dots is unnecessary and has the potential for Unwelcome Consequences.

Can =/= Should. Thats a lesson that every Exalt has to learn, along with the value of restraint.


It appears to me that if it was intentional then the goal was to make it uncomfortable to be in the mortal world. Industrialization is what made it widespread, but for the purposes of DF gods and spirits of the earth would have had access to it much earlier.
I dont think so.
Do remember that during Battle Grounds, Dresden called on hundreds of thousands of Little Folk in Chicago as the Za Militia. That was just Wyldfae; Winter and Summer Fae werent in that number.

The Fae, whoever made them, are entirely too intrinsically bound to humanity to stay away for very long.
Lily owning such an amulet doesn't seem like a security threat to me. It's possible this could have additional consequences, but it'd hard to speculate exactly what is a reasonable concern.
What we can observe is that saving her mortality but not removing the iron weakness is suboptimal. It's disappointing she won't be able to ignore iron entirely with SP, but not bursting into flames on contact is enough to let her engage with normal people on earth without having that thought constantly in the back of her mind.
I dont believe that iron weakness works that way.
Penetrating the skin, sure. Attack? Yes. Touch? Not that I recall. I certainly remember the scene where Aurora was killed, and she didnt burst into fire when they stabbed her with it.

If you have a quote, I would appreciate a citation.
The queens and nobles like Leansidhe are so hilariously dangerous that I don't think the iron weakness makes a difference, so selling them what would effectively be a prestige/comfort feature is relatively low risk. Selling it to random Sidhe barons on the other hand would be an awful idea, because they're weak enough that their preferred victims can actually feasibly use that weakness against them.
It matters enough as to act as a gate for if something is worth the trouble.
And almost as importantly, it serves as a loophole for subverting orders when your superiors pass down orders you dont want to obey.

Thats my two cents anyway.
 
The people who do these things always think they can beat the odds.
Its not their intent to destroy everything, just to conquer it, or to leverage it to their own advantage.
Lord Raith apparently bargained for magic immunity. Nfested Maeve wanted to best her mother.

The Red Court infected the Leanansidhe to paralyze Winter while they and their allies pulled off a massive realignment of supernatural and political power. They arent at war with Winter. Or at least dont think they are at war with Winter.
They certainly arent acting like they are.

Doesnt mean that Winter isnt going to fuck them dearly for this
But like I said, there are always people who think they are special snowflakes who can beat the odds and warnings.
They invariably Find Out after Fucking Around
We are talking past each other. I am arguing that from perspective of Creation-aligned forces (broadly fae and humanity) there's no meaningful difference between outsider-using and outsider-aligned factions. Their internal motivations do not matter.
*points at Iku Turso*
Remember when they said that Iku escaping would have created a Freehold in the Great Lakes, in the middle of a metropolitan area of fifty something million people?

Now dump single or double digit paranoid and hostile gods(thats baseline after several hundred years of imprisonment) in a geographical area encompassing 9-digit humans where they believe they have a geographical and historic claim.
Or where humans or other spirits have occupied something they considered theirs

And I'm not even counting the possibility they are actually evil.
Or just very alien. Everyone potentially loses.

We do not want to be responsible for anything that results in civilian deaths
Especially not civilian deaths that potentially are in the five figure range or higher.
That would be a mortal wound, reputation wise
We are not helpless, and can prevent worst case scenarios in a number of ways. At the very least we should investigate the issue (since using Arianna's head has been removed from a leading plan, that's not an immediate issue).
1)They did not have Outsider help, that I would bet on. That would have invited their annihilation by everyone else.
Lea wouldnt be going to Red Court parties several hundred years later.
They have attacked Leanansidhe, and hosted Black Court (who are creations of a Neverborn here), and infected Maeve. And yet there's no total war against them by Winter. I wouldn't bet on this, especially if outsider involvement was kept on the down low.
2) Inherent weakness is possible but unlikely; the pantheon in question wouldnt have survived so long with something like that
Actually, inherent weakness could very much be a thing. Mass mortal sacrifices were not just for funsies after all. It could also have been temporary, such as the turning of ages.
The Mothers have too much weight of mojo to come to Reality.
Citation please.
No they werent.
Medieval humanity made the Fae? With which power?
Mortal hands had nothing to do with the Fae Courts.
... It's canon that fae courts were created from mortals by using a darkhallow-like ritual:
Citation 1
5. cowl with darkhallow – really? just a bunch of spirits…
If he'd succeeded, he'd have had the collective power of all of those supernatural beings and then some. He'd have been clearly stronger than the Ladies, and a full-on equal to Mab. I mean, why do you think the Erlking was summoned as part of that ritual? Because that's how the big E got so boss in the first place. :)
For that matter, how do you think the Mothers and Queens and Ladies established their original base of power? That big old sacrificial, power-sucking stone table in Tir na noth isn't there for its primitive decorative aesthetic.
Citation 2:
You've previously said that the Sidhe and Mab came from origins like Toot Toot and kind of took on responsibility and grew. You've also said that every single Fae have come from mortal origins like changelings and Scions and stuff. Could you reconcile these two apparently contradictory origins?
I could but I won't *sing song* I'm not gonna tell you.* The Sidhe were created for a reason though. They were created specifically by certain agents who no longer had as much influence on the world as they once did. I've hinted at that in some previous books and I'll leave it at that and I'll leave the rest to you. That's perfectly enough material to come up with fan crack theory. And fan crack theory is awesome. I love reading fan crack theory. I will go through occasionally and look at the crack theory boards, and it's like excellent. And occasionally its like 'ooh that's actually better than what I had planned…" (Editor's note: This question is especially dear to me)
They were created by some agents who were losing / lost their power in the world, but they were created from mortals. Mortal hands certainly were involved in their creation. And even if not as primary architects, they were created from mortal humanity who was, at best, stone age in development. And they fundamentally cannot change certain core tenets of their existence, rescind their oaths and such. Only add new ones on top of the previous ones.
 
Uju can=/= should that is true but the non position you champion on seemingly every issue with major powers on restraint over morals, wants or benefits isn't attractive or good nothing Improves or changes if you are to paralyzed to move.
 
It is getting late and the vote has not moved much. If I am going to do an update today I have to close it about now so:

Vote closed, lets see about that owl
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 22, 2023 at 10:05 AM, finished with 125 posts and 22 votes.

  • [X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only conmofrtingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
    [X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    [X] Plan Red Adamantinum
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of conspirators whose conspiracy caused the previous owner of this stained piece of cloth to turn into the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only conmofrtingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
    [X] Plan Exalted Effort
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Head of Arianna Ortega (6th Generation Equivalent)
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Arianna: Where are the gods that this one stolen from held?
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bone, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
    [X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only comfortingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
 
We are talking past each other. I am arguing that from perspective of Creation-aligned forces (broadly fae and humanity) there's no meaningful difference between outsider-using and outsider-aligned factions. Their internal motivations do not matter.
Internal motivations always matter.
We are not helpless, and can prevent worst case scenarios in a number of ways. At the very least we should investigate the issue (since using Arianna's head has been removed from a leading plan, that's not an immediate issue).
We are an Essence 3 Infernal thats been at the job for six months.
You vastly overestimate our ability to control that sort of situation, even at E5; we do not need to be helpless to be hopelessly over our heads in that sort of situation.

I do agree that more research is needed.
They have attacked Leanansidhe, and hosted Black Court (who are creations of a Neverborn here), and infected Maeve. And yet there's no total war against them by Winter. I wouldn't bet on this, especially if outsider involvement was kept on the down low.
Winter has never considered the Black Court, or any vampires, to be enemies of Reality that I know of.

Winter almost never reacts immediately.
Even in major, public infractions; six years passed between Nicodemus and the Denarians flagrantly fucking with Mab's Accords in Small Favor, and Mab getting payback in Skin Game.

Mab always balances her books. Always.
Actually, inherent weakness could very much be a thing. Mass mortal sacrifices were not just for funsies after all. It could also have been temporary, such as the turning of ages.
Doubt it.
In the dog eat dog world of Dresdenverse supernatural relations, such a thing would have probably gotten the pantheon whacked long before the Reds came on the scene.

Citation provided:
Info about really powerful beings
The Mothers are extremely powerful beings, I mean, they're really really well, you can tell because they hardly ever show up on the real world. In the Dresden Files universe if you don't show up on the real world, it's because you're too big to walk around there. For instance, I think in the third book, when the Dragon is talking about how the Earth couldn't bear his weight, it's not that the Earth itself would literally crack, it's that reality would have issues trying to contain him, because every time he coughs, it would bend around like Neo in the Matrix. So, they spend most of their time NOT on the real world, they spend it hanging around in the Nevernever, all the really heavyweight guys do that. If you're in the real world, well, the problem is that you're in the world, and you're kind of mortal, and something could come along and try and whack you, if they're fast enough, or good enough, or lucky enough. Which makes Odin a kind of special guy, because he doesn't mind it, he thinks it's awesome. But anyway, you can always tell. If there's folks who don't show up in the real world, it's because they're super big. So, like, an angel shows up, and it's just sort of a whispered presence that one person is aware of, that's because he's just too big to show up here, it's a giant sandbox, and he's got to be very very careful to not squash the sandbox. So, he just shows up for that one bit.
Source

... It's canon that fae courts were created from mortals by using a darkhallow-like ritual:
No its not. You're misreading that quote.
The Queens were created in a manner akin to the Darkhallow: the Mother, the Queen and the Lady.
Not the Fae.

They are all part-mortal, mind. Word of Butcher.
But they werent created by Darkhallow.
They were created by some agents who were losing / lost their power in the world, but they were created from mortals. Mortal hands certainly were involved in their creation. And even if not as primary architects, they were created from mortal humanity who was, at best, stone age in development. And they fundamentally cannot change certain core tenets of their existence, rescind their oaths and such. Only add new ones on top of the previous ones.
No, that is not true.
The Fae predate a lot of shit; they have always been the defenders of reality. Back when there were various gods on call for escalation, the Fae were always the footsoldiers at the Gates. Whats new are the Queens, and even thats apparently several thousand years old.

I have posted this Butcher quote before:
So um, her- slight tangent based on her role which is to be kind of like at the gates when Mab's busy and all that stuff, as far as the guardianship of the gates over time, has it kind of been a cycle where one pantheon falls, the next one picks it up because the other one lost worship and this one got stronger? Or has there always been kind of like a coalition of whichever was top dog at the time was the one in charge?

It's almost always been a bit of a coalition. The fae have always kind of been the foot-soldiers of what was going on, but it's been more recently that they've been given autonomy, which is to say Mab and Titania. And when I say recently I mean like within the past few thousand years. As far as the immortal things are concerned, recent events are, you know, human history.

And were they kind of- to circumvent that whole problem of a continual transition because it seems like if you're losing power based on faith you'd want something a little more permanent like a mantle that goes and stays empowered at all times.

It was less about that... less about the whole thing running on faith and more about the fact that occasionally things got bad and the fae needed backup and that would be when "okay we've got to cover this one, who's got this one? Uhh how about Asgard? Yeah Asgard gets this one, go guys" you know like that. And that was how it went for a long time, pre-history that was pretty much how it went. But as things have gone on, the past couple of thousand years has been mostly the fae in charge. Because essentially they got a sponsor and then they were able to get some actual leadership put in place so.

They got a sponsor?

Yeah I've actually told everybody about it already, it's in the books, you'll have to come up with it yourselves.

Reread!

I know right? That's the next year of our life.


I'll give you a hint, reread Skin Game.
How much willpower does Lily have, in your opinion?
I dont think the Queens measure Willpower the way mortals do. Im pretty sure there's a lot of conditional modifiers in play.

In mortal terms she'd easily be at least Willpower 8, if not higher; you dont hold to your intimacies in the face of pressure from both a centuries-old Queen and your Mantle for five years now without a very rigid spine.
She may not have been originally, but she's got a lot of practice.
 
Your citation directly disproves your assertion. Hardly ever =/= never. Hardly ever means that sometimes they do.
No its not. You're misreading that quote.
The Queens were created in a manner akin to the Darkhallow: the Mother, the Queen and the Lady.
Not the Fae.
No? it's directly opposite. Queens established their base of power (i.e. their courts) using darkhallow-like rituals.
They are all part-mortal, mind. Word of Butcher.
Not part-mortal. Have been mortal once. I have given the quote about that.
No, that is not true.
The Fae predate a lot of shit; they have always been the defenders of reality. Back when there were various gods on call for escalation, the Fae were always the footsoldiers at the Gates. Whats new are the Queens, and even thats apparently several thousand years old.
In your own words, you are misreading the quote. "have always been" = "as long as they existed". They were created by agents losing their powers / influence, as I have quoted above, at some distant, but finite past.
I dont think the Queens measure Willpower the way mortals do. Im pretty sure there's a lot of conditional modifiers in play.

In mortal terms she'd easily be at least Willpower 8, if not higher; you dont hold to your intimacies in the face of pressure from both a centuries-old Queen and your Mantle for five years now without a very rigid spine.
She may not have been originally, but she's got a lot of practice.
I... don't think that's correct at all, and i would probably put her at 5 at most. But I'll have to reread the books to be more sure.
 
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No more than those people who summon demons to barter information are infernalists.

Sooooooo, yes then? Because what are people who do that if not infernalist by definition?

3-dots is unnecessary and has the potential for Unwelcome Consequences.

According to whom?

Seriously, where do you see those unintended consequences coming from? You have a habit of inventing complications wholesale out of nothing and this really seems like one such case to me.

Uju can=/= should that is true but the non position you champion on seemingly every issue with major powers on restraint over morals, wants or benefits isn't attractive or good nothing Improves or changes if you are to paralyzed to move.

It begets doing nothing, never moving for fear of changing the status quo, yes.

If uju had his way, we would never get out of Molly's house, too dangerous, you never now what good we could do.
 
Your citation directly disproves your assertion. Hardly ever =/= never. Hardly ever means that sometimes they do.
I think the quote speaks for itself.
Mortals dont have to fear the Mothers wielding power in reality because they dont hang out here.

No? it's directly opposite. Queens established their base of power (i.e. their courts) using darkhallow-like rituals.
The base of their power as Queens.
Their Courts are not the base of their power.
I quote:
2009 WoJ forum post:
1. the mothers – how does a queen become a mother? like after a thousand yrs, old winter dies and mab becomes the new mother?
Essentially abdication. The previous mother wearies of her duty and moves along. There's been one new Mother Summer during recorded human history. Mother Winter has never retired.
2013 KC signing Q&A
How often do the Ladies', Queens' and Mothers' mantles change?
Uh, the Ladies, Queens and Mothers, their mantles change very, very, very rarely in general. I mean, Mab's been there for better than 1,000 years. And Maeve's been there….there was a Winter Lady before Maeve, uh, in Mab's time. And she didn't fare so well the last time a Starborn was running around.
More on Fae mantle changes
if the Ladies become the Queen, what happens to the Mothers at that point? The thing is that the Mothers are kind of the foundation. So, it's not so much what happens to them because the little mantles changed. It's what happens to the little mantles if the big mantles change. So, if someone whacks the being that is, for all intents and purposes, Baba Yaga, and then Mab succeeds, then Mab becomes the new Baba Yaga, and Molly gets drawn up to Mab, and they have to find someone else to become the new Lady. But on the other hand, the Mothers are extremely powerful beings (continued in the cosmology/mantle sub-section)
That appears fairly straightforward.

Not part-mortal. Have been mortal once. I have given the quote about that.
Thats not what Jim Butcher said. I can provide the quote:

WoJ on the Fae

2010 Powell's books Q&A off of Youtube @1:10
Exactly what are the Outsiders? Are they like the fae, or are they something else entirely?
They are something else entirely. All the fae are part mortal. There is some bit of mortal in every single one of the fae. The Outsiders are something that comes from way beyond that. Their more the generic Hellboy fangs and tentacles croud.
That quote is more than a decade old now, but it still holds true.

In your own words, you are misreading the quote. "have always been" = "as long as they existed". They were created by agents losing their powers / influence, as I have quoted above, at some distant, but finite past.
Nope. That was, to the best of my understanding, referring to the Queens.

The origins of the Fae in canon have never been explained very well thus far.
Bob talks about the old days of the Sidhe wars, and makes it clear that the Fae are related to the Fomor and Shen; I quote
I found Stu's pistol on the ground where I'd dropped it during the struggle. Then I followed Butters to his car—an old Plymouth Road Runner. It looked almost worse than my old VW Beetle had the last time I'd seen it. Dents and dings covered its all-steel frame, and some of them looked suspiciously like they'd been raked into the metal with a two-pronged claw—but its engine throbbed with impressive, harmonious power. Its license plates read: MEEPMEEP.
"I kinda traded in my old one," Butters told me as I got in, going straight through the door. I didn't make any noise about the discomfort. Not in front of Butters. It would totally blow my ghostly cool.
"For another old one," I said. My voice issued out of the radio he slipped into a clip attached to the car's sun visor.
"I like steel better than fiberglass," he said. "The Fomor and the faeries are apparently related. Neither one of them likes the touch of any metal with iron in it."
Bob's skull rested in a container that had been custom mounted on the Road Runner's dash—a wooden frame set on a plate that made the skull wobble back and forth like a bobblehead doll. "Lot of interbreeding there," Bob said. "Back in the old, old, old days. Before the Sidhe Wars."
I lifted my eyebrows. "I haven't heard much about it."
"Crazy stuff," Bob said with tremendous enthusiasm. "Even before my time, but I've heard all kinds of stories. The Daoine Sidhe, the Tuatha, the Fomor, the Tylwyth Teg, the Shen. Epic alliances, epic betrayals, epic battles, epic weddings, epic sex—"
"Epic sex?" I sputtered. "By what standards, precisely, is sex judged to be epic?"

"And tons and tons of mortal simps like you used as pawns." Bob sighed happily, ignoring my question. "There are no words. It was like The Lord of the Rings and All My Children made a baby with the Macho Man Randy Savage and a Whac-A-Mole machine."
Butters sputtered at that image.
But . . . I mean, Hell's bells. Who wouldn't?
"Anyway," he choked out a moment later, "the Fomor have a lot of faerie blood in their makeup. I like having Detroit steel around me when I drive."
"Murphy said something about the Fomor last night," I said. "I take it they've been moving in on the town?"

Mother Summer makes it clear that Fae intermarry and are fascinated with mortals, but arent mortals.
Citation:
I opened my mouth and closed it again. I could imagine that vividly enough—Maeve, high as a kite on her newfound power, giggling and tormenting and killing left and right just because she could do it. Maeve was the sort who lived to pull the wings off of flies.
And I was pretty sure whose wings would be the first to catch her eye.
"Well, crap," I said.
"Quite so," said Mother Summer. "And if you do heed Mab's command?"
"Maeve's mantle gets passed on to someone else," I said. "And if . . . the adversary? Can I say that safely?"
Mother Summer smiled. "That's why we use that word rather than a name, Sir Knight. Yes."
"If the adversary has taken Mab," I said, "then it gets to choose an agent to take the Winter Lady's mantle. Two-thirds of the Winter Court will be under its influence." I looked back toward the cottage. "And that seems like it might be bad for Mother Winter."
"Indeed," said Mother Summer. "We are all vulnerable to those who are close to us."
"I never figured Granny Cleaver was close to anyone, ma'am."
The lines at the corners of Mother Summer's eyes deepened. "Oh, she . . . What is the phrase? She talks a good game. But in her own way, she cares."
I may have arched a skeptical eyebrow. "Kind of like how, in her own way, she likes me?" I asked.
Mother Summer didn't answer that, as our steps carried us into a more deeply shadowed section of the forest. "It is at times very difficult to be so closely interwoven with mortals," she said.
"For you?"
"For all of Faerie," she replied.
"What do you mean?"
She gestured at herself. "We appear much as humans, do we not? Most of our folk do—or else they resemble another creature of the mortal world. Hounds, birds, stags, and so forth."
"Sure," I said.

"You are endlessly fascinating. We conceive our children with mortals. We move and sway in time to the mortal seasons. We dance to mortal music, make our homes like mortal dwellings, feast upon mortal foods. We find parts of ourselves becoming more like them, and yet we are not like them. Many of the things they think and feel, and a great many of their actions, are inexplicable to us."
"We don't really understand ourselves all that well yet," I said. "I think it would be very difficult for you to do it."
Mother Summer smiled at me, and it felt like the first warm day of spring. "That's true, isn't it?"
"But you've got a point to make, ma'am," I said. "Or you wouldn't have brought up the subject."
"I do," she said. "Winter is cold, Sir Knight, but never so cold that it freezes the heart altogether."
"You've got to have a heart before it can freeze, ma'am."
"You do."
I walked for a little while, considering that. "You're saying that I have a chance to stay me."

"I'm saying many things," Mother Summer said. "Do you have a chance to remain yourself despite the tendency of the mantle to mold your thoughts and desires? All Knights, Winter and Summer, have that chance. Most fail."
"But it's possible," I said.
She looked up at me and her eyes were deeper than time. "Anything is possible."
"Ah," I said, understanding. "We're not really talking about me."
"We are," she said serenely, turning her eyes away. "And we are not."
"Uh," I said. "I'm getting a little confused here. What are we talking about, exactly?"
Mother Summer smiled at me.
And then she just clammed up.
We are? We're not?
I kept a straight face while my inner Neanderthal spluttered and then went on a mental rampage through a hypothetical produce section, knocking over shelves and splattering fruit everywhere in sheer frustration, screaming, "JUST TELL ME WHOSE SKULL TO CRACK WITH MY CLUB, DAMMIT!"
Flippin' faeries. They will be the death of me.
The fate of the Fae is intermingled with humanity, and they interbreed, but they arent human.
Not even on the long-lost cousins level like the fomor.

The origins of the Queens, on the other hand, have been all but spelled out in canon.
They were the Norns, the Fates, and were Hecate, Titan's Daughter and the Triple Goddess of the Underworld, Crossroads, Magic and Boundaries.

That's the patron that Butcher refers to: Maiden, Mother, Crone.
I... don't think that's correct at all, and i would probably put her at 5 at most. But I'll have to reread the books to be more sure.
Fair enough.
 
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That appears fairly straightforward.
No, I don't agree with this at all. Among the queens, Mothers are a kind of foundation, sure. But the base of power of a monarch is their court.
Mother Summer makes it clear that Fae intermarry and are fascinated with mortals, but arent mortals.
And yet, according to Word of Jim, they were all mortals once. Mothers are special in this. If nothing else, I am fairly sure that there's little, if anything, left behind the mantle.
The origins of the Queens, on the other hand, have been all but spelled out in canon.
They were the Norns, the Fates, and were Hecate, Titansdaughter and the Triple Goddess of the Underworld, Crossroads, Magic and Boundaries.

Maiden, Mother, Crone.
It's one of their names, yes.

Suffice to say, I read the quotes in a completely opposite way to you.
 
No, I don't agree with this at all. Among the queens, Mothers are a kind of foundation, sure. But the base of power of a monarch is their court.
Strongly disagree.
Thats not how the Queens work.
And yet, according to Word of Jim, they were all mortals once. Mothers are special in this. If nothing else, I am fairly sure that there's little, if anything, left behind the mantle.
Like I've said, you're misreading that.
And following with some of the other fandom discussions I sometimes lurk, Im reasonably sure that Im in the majority with most fans here. At least those obsessed enough to discuss these things online :V

It's one of their names, yes.
Suffice to say, I read the quotes in a completely opposite way to you.
Its their identity.
Go back and look at the vault scene in Skin Game like Butcher said we should:
And were they kind of- to circumvent that whole problem of a continual transition because it seems like if you're losing power based on faith you'd want something a little more permanent like a mantle that goes and stays empowered at all times.

It was less about that... less about the whole thing running on faith and more about the fact that occasionally things got bad and the fae needed backup and that would be when "okay we've got to cover this one, who's got this one? Uhh how about Asgard? Yeah Asgard gets this one, go guys" you know like that. And that was how it went for a long time, pre-history that was pretty much how it went. But as things have gone on, the past couple of thousand years has been mostly the fae in charge. Because essentially they got a sponsor and then they were able to get some actual leadership put in place so.

They got a sponsor?

Yeah I've actually told everybody about it already, it's in the books, you'll have to come up with it yourselves.

Reread!

I know right? That's the next year of our life.


I'll give you a hint, reread Skin Game

Skin Game chapter 40 said:
The light came primarily from the outstretched hands of two twenty-foot-tall golden statues in the center of the room. I found myself walking to one side, enough to see the details of each statue. Both consisted of the shapes of three women, standing back to back, in a triangle, their arms thrust outward and up, palms lifted to the ceiling. One of the women was an ancient crone. The next was a woman in the full bloom of her strength and maturity. The third was that of a young woman, recently matured out of childhood. The flames of one statue burned golden-green. The other statue's flames were an icy green-blue.
And just looking at that, my heart started beating faster all over again.

Because I'd met every single one of them. I recognized their faces.
"Is that Hecate?" Ascher murmured, staring up at the statues in awe. "The triple goddess of the crossroads, right?"
I swallowed. "Uh. It. . Yes, it might be."

And it might also be Grannies Summer and Winter, Mab, Titania, Sarissa, and Molly Carpenter. But I didn't say anything about that.

I pulled my eyes down from the statues and forced myself to look around the rest of the vault.
The room was about the size of a football field. The walls were a parquet of platinum and gold triangles, stretching up out of sight overhead. The floor was a smooth surface of white marble shot through with veins of pure, gleaming silver. Corinthian columns supported rooftops straight from ancient Athens in scores of small, separate display areas around the vault. Some of them were raised as much as seven or eight feet off the floor, and had to be reached by stairs of more silver-shot marble. Others were sunken in descending rows in a curling bow that looked almost like a Greek amphitheater, if it had been built with box seating.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Nov 22, 2023 at 10:05 AM, finished with 125 posts and 22 votes.

  • [X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only conmofrtingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
    [X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    [X] Plan Red Adamantinum
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of conspirators whose conspiracy caused the previous owner of this stained piece of cloth to turn into the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only conmofrtingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
    [X] Plan Exalted Effort
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Head of Arianna Ortega (6th Generation Equivalent)
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Arianna: Where are the gods that this one stolen from held?
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bone, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
    [X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
    -[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
    --[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
    -[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
    --[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
    --[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
    -[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only comfortingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
    --[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
 
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