Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Ok, this is compelling. Changing my vote, and approval voting. The differences in the plans in the question for Tears of Summer Lady
[X] Plan Red Adamantinum
[X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
-[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
--[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
-[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
--[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
-[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only conmofrtingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
--[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
It happens when people are voting with the name of the poster.What
1)Thats like talking about defanging US power by dismantling the country's military industrial complex.
How are you gonna do that without defeating the country itself?
You have to destroy Red Court power to get at wherever and whatever they have done with the previous gods.
2) Furthermore, what do we know about the Mayan/Aztec/Inca gods IC? What makes you think they would ally with us?
Or are even the kind of allies we could stomach?
For all we know they are precisely the sort of people that would make Seeker blanch.
Not everything thats imprisoned is innocent. See Iku Turso.
Or the story that Michael told us shortly after we exalted about the evil spirits that were being imprisoned in South America that were freed by the Church.
He goes on to give an account of how the misunderstanding of the Supay of Peru as being 'demons' that dwelt beneath the earth had lead to the defiling of wards which contained true and enduring evil, spirits of cruelty and rage which had long been contained beneath the Peaks of the Andes and which at least one later day scholar claimed had infected the gold which was carried east on Spanish treasure ships, their influence rubbing off on every palm through which they passed. "I met one, oh it must have been coming on twenty years ago now and the spirit said he wept bitter tears for the evil he was not able to stop just as he raged against those who brought the ruin. There is a lesson in that, a lesson about humility and not passing judgement too hastily, especially when it is convenient to the one doing it."
Consider that there's a reason why the White Council hasnt done this as a convenient solution to the Red Court problem.
They are literally the masters of strategic magical warfare.
If it was easy or wise, the Blackstaff and an elite strike force would have already done it.
The Earth is littered with prisons for gods and godlike entities. Wise people tend to leave them alone.
Its entirely possible to destroy the Red Court and/or free whatever entities they have imprisoned, and find out that they are much worse than the Reds were.
And narratively, they are not equal.
We cannot use Lily's Tears as a sorcerous or divination focus against the Red Court or its leader. They are not interchangeable, just because we can squeeze the same amount of crafting mojo out of the two.
You do not know that. We do not know that.
We did not create the Fae Courts, or the Queens, nor where we there when they were. We dont know how they work, or how they are balanced. We have not read the design documents.
There are implications for potentially destabilizing the internal power balance of the Faerie Courts as well, or the relative power between the Mother, Queen and Lady of either Court. Ask any programmer about how why you do not try to push multiple code patches simultaneously, especially without pretesting.
Or ask a doctor why they prefer to not perform multiple surgical procedures simultaneously.
This is not the sort of situation where you get takebacks, or where you can go "oops, my bad" if you unwittingly break something you were not aware actually existed.
Go careful.
Minimal change first until you're certain that change wont break or destabilize something important, or allow for breaking or destabilizing something important.
Its the responsible way to work when you are literally tampering with people in charge of fundamental forces of reality.
If there's a need, Splendors can be upgraded in the future.
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[X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
-[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
--[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
-[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
--[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
-[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only conmofrtingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
--[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
-[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
--[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
-[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
--[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
-[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only conmofrtingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
--[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
- Location
- Germany
Killing them would serve our purposes as well, if we can't stomach freeing them.
Killing one god is one thing.
Killing an entire pantheon of gods is rather beyond Molly's capabilities at the moment. Might remain outside of Molly's capabilities short of becoming a primordial herself. And Im reasonably certain that breaking the power of the Red Court will automatically free any prisoners being held by the power of the Red Court. Nevermind what happens to the power they hold.
Remember, Molly is a Celestial Exalt. Not an unshackled angel, or a Celestine or very high-end Incarna.
She's got a bunch of OCP abilities, unmatched by anything we know.
But she's not Mab, who can and did imprison a god in the middle of Winter for pissing her off; word of Butcher is that of the frozen statues that we saw in Arctis Tor during Proven Guilty, one of them is the spider god and trickster Anansi.
I dont see it making a difference.There is a type-o in my vote: I wrote conmofrtingly instead of comfortingly. Should it be fixed?
Leave it alone.
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- Location
- Germany
Butchering a pantheon in chains after being drained metaphorically and literally for centuries is no challenge at all.
If we somehow manage to get through the defences of the Red Court, the action of killing or freeing them should be trivial, only the decision would matter then.
Just to illustrate my point:
And yet both Mab and Maeve are vulnerable to iron, as are the rest of the Fae.
Consider that maybe that was deliberate in whoever set the courts up.
Why? We dont know. Maybe we should look into that before tampering.
That is not how it appears to work in the Dresden Files.
In the short story Fugitive, the Nemean Lion had been incarcerated in Hades for thousands of years and was still as spry as anything once Cowl arranged a jailbreak. The multiple attempts by Outsiders to break into Demonreach are predicated on the understanding that the dark gods there, if freed, arent going to be weakened by their millenia of imprisonment.
And Butcher explicitly tells us that Anansi will break free of his imprisonment as an ice statue in Arctis Tor, no worse for wear.
True immortals dont appear to lose their potency from imprisonment.
And if they lost power from being fed on, the gods would have been dead centuries ago.
Nevermind that we dont actually know what these "gods" are.
Mother Winter in the Dresden Files has iron teeth. They dont appear to harm her at all.
And yet both Mab and Maeve are vulnerable to iron, as are the rest of the Fae.
Consider that maybe that was deliberate in whoever set the courts up.
Why? We dont know. Maybe we should look into that before tampering.
This argument relies on the presumption that imprisonment weakens gods and godlike entities.
That is not how it appears to work in the Dresden Files.
In the short story Fugitive, the Nemean Lion had been incarcerated in Hades for thousands of years and was still as spry as anything once Cowl arranged a jailbreak. The multiple attempts by Outsiders to break into Demonreach are predicated on the understanding that the dark gods there, if freed, arent going to be weakened by their millenia of imprisonment.
And Butcher explicitly tells us that Anansi will break free of his imprisonment as an ice statue in Arctis Tor, no worse for wear.
True immortals dont appear to lose their potency from imprisonment.
And if they lost power from being fed on, the gods would have been dead centuries ago.
Nevermind that we dont actually know what these "gods" are.
[X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
No, that's like talking about defanging USA by disabling their nuclear power plants. I would do it by stopping sales of Russian-processed uranium to them. The mataphor is flawed, but the logic is still there. One doesn't need to defeat an enemy state to steal from it.
Worse comes to worst, we unleash them on their prisoners. Red Court is an outsider-aligned faction of monsters.
If you actually suggested such uses, I would be more inclined to listen to this argument. As is, it rings very hollow.
If you were actually inclined to look, or suggesting we look, instead of trying to shut down the very idea, it would be more compelling.
@DragonParadox - there are plenty enough mundane books on fae that mention iron weakness (hell, there's a random iron horseshoe to use as a focus), and Molly is occult 5. Can we use those to check what the reason for iron weakness is?
It's fine, I could hardly say otherwise given all the times I missed a typo in the standard votes
No but you could have Harry call up one of the Little Folk for it, they certainly do not have fun at it.
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Something to do, then. Would that require an AP expenditure?
I was going to give you guys the option of who you want to take with you at the talks with Summer and Harry was an option so sure you can squeeze that into the actions you have. No extra AP expenditure required. After all it's not like Toot is going to turn down Pizza for letting Molly have a loot at him.
No it isnt.
The US is not dependent on its nuclear power gen, and has multiple independent sources of fissile material both in the US and in Canada.
1)We unleash who on their prisoners?
Why do you assume we have the capability to control the actions of NPCs?
To our benefit?
2)We do not know what the gods they have imprisoned are.
I would...caution against any assumptions here.
3)Thats not actually true.
The Red Court are an Outsider-using faction of monsters; they are not known to be Outsider-aligned to my recollection.
Thats why Winter's Number 2 woman, who literally commands the Outer Gates in Mab's absence, and Ferrovax both came to Rampire diplomatic receptions before the war.
Its the classic situation of a bad guy thinking they can use (X) to get power, and failing to realize that said X has its own agenda.
Im not.
I have no reason to; just like I have no reason to check for penicillin allergies if Im not prescribing its use.
But since you want to change tamper, you actually need to check.
Like I have repeatedly pointed out?
You can upgrade a Splendor after making it.
There are no takebacks if you go all-in and fuck things up by disrupting a careful balance.
[X] Plan Red Adamantinum v.2
-[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
--[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
-[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
--[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
-[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only comfortingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
--[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
-[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady
--[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
-[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
--[X] Tears of the Summer Lady: List of nemesis-controlled summer fae
--[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
-[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bright red steel burning with an inner flame yet only comfortingly warm to the touch, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
--[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
I mostly agree with this although it should be noted it wasn't until recently that they became known as an outsider using faction. It happened during deadbeat and they were all surprised by the fact that red court was able to summon outsiders. Before that the fact that they summoned and worked with outsiders was not known to the best of our knowledge.
I am fairly sure that using outsiders and being aligned with outsiders is mostly equivalent. And we don't know if they were known to be using outsiders before events of the books. Right now they are set pretty directly to war with Winter at least.
A third of the fuel comes Russia, that's dependency. But the metaphor is flawed anyway.
Sorry, that was a mistype. I was trying to say that freeing (should we decide they be freed) captive divinity allows us to direct them at their jailors, while simultaneously weakening Red Court. And if only certain red Court nobles are powered up with stolen power, then this might increase political in-fighting in the court, as the top powerful faction becomes weaker, and the lesser powerful faction is not affected.
I can tell you why OOC:
It protects mortals against the Fae. It gives humans something that will fend off less-determined Fae attentions, and a weapon that is actually a credible threat of pain or disability or death.
Its one of the other factors in that equation that is Summer balancing Winter.
But surely Lily is not a danger to humans, is your immediate impulse.
To which I reply: The sun can kill you as fast as cold. Even with the best wishes possible, Lily is a (junior)Queen of Summer, and has to follow the orders of her senior Queen(s) within some(undefined) limits. Hence, when Dresden called on her during Proven Guilty the first time, she had things she couldnt say because Titania ordered her not to talk.
When Dresden wanted to go to Arctis Tor to rescue Molly, she couldnt help Dresden because she was under orders from Titania not to; Dresden had to pass that favor on to Charity in order to ruleslawyer around it.
If Lily is under orders from Titania , or potentially Mother Summer, to fuck up some mortals she cant but obey.
And iron immunity both removes one excuse she could use, and any defense said mortal might have.
This was also true for Winter Knight Dresden, even though Mab was explicitly very light-handed with him.
Presumably for Maeve pre-Nemesis.
And while Lily might usually not be careless about mortals?
You cant say the same thing about Maeve, or her ability to take offence to shit. Nor can you give Lily Iron-protection and not give that to Maeve when she asks without.....raising antagonism, potentially.
The Fae are not enemies of Humanity in general.
That doesnt mean that their goals are always compatible, or that the Fae Courts, or individual Fae cant be enemies of individual people. Or that individual Fae wont take advantage of people; at least one changeling we know was born of a rape.
Thats in part why iron exists for mortals, because individual mortals and individual Fae do come to odds.
For example:
Maeve sent Jenny Greenteeth to disrupt Billy and George's wedding in Something Borrowed because they killed her favorite assassin in Summer Knight when she was attacking Dresden. Jenny kidnapped Georgia, put her in an enchanted sleep and took her place at the wedding without anyone having a clue.
If Dresden hadnt been there, that would have been all she wrote.
Dresden himself spent the first six years of his life as an independent wizard dodging his faerie godmother who wanted to turn him into a hound, a hunting dog. For his own good, of course, to keep him safe from his enemies. He also spent most of Small Favor dodging Summer Fae killsquads when he wasnt trying to deal with the Denarians, because Queen Titania has a personal grudge against him.
He killed Titania's daughter in Summer Knight, five years ago.
She hasnt forgotten, or forgiven, even though she knows it was necessary. And Summer fae are still apparently pissed that he used iron to do it.
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On second thought, conversation seems to be ongoing, I'll leave it up a while longer