fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
There is a big huge difference between being ok with dying eventually and actively wanting to become old and decrepit. It isn't as if this makes people immortal.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
Agelessness basically requires that they die by violence or disease. The latter of which is pretty unlikely unless they actively refuse medical care from us. It's not like they can just OD on morphine or something when they want to go either, Catholics believe suicide is a sin.
Getting old isn't fun, but putting them in that position isn't terribly great either.
For her friends this doesn't matter, but since we already have one form of immortality available I don't see much of a rush to provide another.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
If Michael is ageless then he dies in the line of duty someday. Likely saving someone else's life in the process. But even if that doesn't happen as they say the most potent way to sacrifice your life is to do it one day at a time.
I don't know if the heavenly eternal reward has some sort of good deeds cap, but an ageless Michael is likely to find out.
Edit: Also you are talking as if Christianity is some sort of death cult where everyone wants to die as fast as possible without committing suicide. With the suicide bit being an obvious rules patch.
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We actually had this debate already in the thread. Michael and Charity are catholic, not generically Christian, and this comes with certain moral obligations:
Suffice to say that I find it at least plausible (and we are a socially-specced celestial exalt) for us to be able to win the argument about our family and friends accepting agelessness:
1) There are a number of ageless people they know, including those of good morals. Magical gift comes pre-packaged with radical life extension and quality of life (healing, general immunity) improvement. Arguing that it's natural to grow old and decrepit in X decades when there are people who are X centuries old around is hard
2) Agelessness in the form we are likely to give comes with lack of chronic medical conditions, and is a form of treatment for degenerative conditions. And, as noted above, Catholics are obligated to care for their health, and accept medical treatment, specifically including experimental and super-advanced treatment
3) Denying life-extension is a form of long-term euthanasia, which Catholic church does not accept.
4) In Dresdenverse specifically there's probably a whole plethora of occult arguments to be had about the coming day of judgment, the Turning of the Wheel and no need to rush to those events.
On MIchael and dying on duty - possible, but far more plausible is that he gets to pass on the sword to someone else at some point for at least an extended period of time (a century or more), perhaps transitioning to a mentor role more fully.
So is breathing in oxygen, willfully living in polluted place(like city) eating unhealthy food/drinks, engaging in stressful practices(like not getting proper sleep). I guess Charity and Michael and really all humans are guilty of suicide and go to hell.
- Location
- washington
I still don't want it they probably want to go to heaven and I see no good reason in my mind to prevent that.
Breathing oxygen does not work in this metaphor, as it's a vital process, but under the most extreme interpretation, yes, eating unhealthy food / drinks would be a sin, I think (I'll have to actually check if such theological texts exist).
Point is, you are supposed to take care of yourself, and willfully denying treatment for preventable diseases / medical conditions is sinful under Catholic doctrine as I am led to understand via internet research.
How are we preventing this? If we are talking about moving them to our Courts, we know that the final destination remains the same - Uriel directly told us so. If we are talking about granting them agelessness through making peaches of immortality or some other immortality potion / serum / treatment, while they remain on Earth, then see my arguments about medical treatment and a moral duty to accept such.
OK, vote closed, character sheet updated.
Oxidiser, free radical
Yes, oxygen does lead to oxidation. It's still a part of a vital biological process called breathing. I believe I see what you are trying to say, but the logical extreme you are trying to establish fails here, because you vitally require oxygen to stay alive.
- Location
- A nondescript grave
[x] A Veil in Summer
I think that equating refusal to take life extension treatment with suicide is ridiculous notion. Better to call it antidegeneration treatment or reinvigoration medicine if going for theological angle.
The naming can use some work, certainly. Something like vigor protection regiment or infirmity treatment could also work.
And I am not saying that this is a slam dunk case. I am saying that this is a winnable argument, possibly even without exalted bs dicepools coming into play.
Arc 11 Post 3: The Stuff of Dreams and Nightmares
The Stuff of Dreams and Nightmares
2nd of January 2007 A.D.
The hum of many voices fills the air, not all of them English echoes upon echoes treading until it might almost seem as though the station was in regular operation again, at least if one could ignore the slight green tint to the light and the very much non-standard pictograms marching across the walls. Dogs raise their heads in steely, blocks serpents coil around the edges, many armed figures take up poses of prayer and meditation, stencils and tags between them in hands less expert perhaps but no less enthusiastic.
People are moving in and out more now, agents of the Hand out on reconnaissance into the city, mortal Jade Dogs looking for work or, having found some in a place that does not inquire about their nonstandard living arrangements, going out and rebuilding what lives they may. When they are not redecorating kids are even getting home-schooled, much to their chagrin and the relief of their parents, with some help from Iris who finds that explaining simple concept until they have been absorbed is an excellent way to learn herself while also seeming less alien to the community she is not a part of. Not so different from her work with isolated tribes around the edges of Five-Courts trade routes and contracts.
Between stopping to ask the newcomers how they have been adapting, including feeding habits and any special needs they may have, settling a handful of small disputes of the kind that always pop up when people are thrown together and adjusting the light levels in a part of the complex to deal with a trio of ghouls who are particularly sensitive to it it's evening by the time you flip off the lights, turn on the music and transition to a place much more macabre, though perhaps in its own way just as hopeful.
The frozen bodies of three Elders of the Red Court hang in isolated cryogenic pods, the gashes stark in sterile blue-green light while the head of Arianna Ortega looks on in eternal shock from a rune-carved pedestal opposite the ad hoc vessel roiling with gossamer ripped from the artifice of the Pathfinders. You do not even glance towards the withered mummified remains of the Akuma, its very essence at cross-purposes with what you intend: to guard from cosmic purpose the memory of mortality.
The purpose for which these tears were shed.
Without even thinking about it you stop before the square of silk stained silver. In a way this would be the perfect reagent to help the Summer Lady keep as much of her former self as she can from slipping away, but it is also the most unique piece of your collection. Old Vampires still stalk the night, too many of them in fact, even gossamer might yet be woven by art and artifice, but you won't have another opportunity to see the Summer Lady weep, hopefully at least.
What Focus do you use to Craft your first Splendor?
[] Gossamer
The stuff of dreams and nightmares harvested by the Pathfinders as part of a plot to bait and make use of the powers of an ancient god-thing... no, it sounds wrong to use that name. There is another more fitting flitting though the back of your mind Raksha.
This Yin infused body has the look of a corpse, desiccated, almost fragile-seeming, utterly at odds with the river of darkness that flowed though it when it was yet animate about the business of its master
[] Head of Arianna Ortega (6th Generation Equivalent)
This severed head has nothing of the beauty and grace of the flesh mask that once enveloped it, though if one is minded to look at it carefully there is still a kind of ruined majesty to it, perhaps the shadow of a shadow of stolen divinity
[] Red Court Elder Corpses (7th generation equivalent) -3 Available; May only forge 1 Dot Splendours-
Not quite so ancient as Arianna, these vampires were still glutted with centuries of blood and life. Hopefuly now, at the last some good will come of them
[] Tears of the Summer Lady
A square of plain white silk stained silver, the tears of an immortal mourning her lost mortality
What manner of Splendour will you draw up from memory of lost ages?
[] Write in
OOC: I added links to the core book and the crafting guide here. To be clear everything beside the elder corpses can go to the maximum for a new made splendour which is 2 Dots.
- Location
- washington
Becuase it delays it? Look I don't really see the point of making them immortal the only reason they'd want it is if we manipulated them through absurd social checks.
Because life has meaning, joy and purpose and to purposefully shorten it would be to spit on the gifts of the Creator? Your position, as I read it, is one very, very short step away from "someone should initiate nuclear apocalypse so everyone can go to heaven as quickly as possible", where Christianity is a death cult with "no suicide" being an emergency patch.
@DragonParadox can we use Arianna's head and an elder head to make a 3 dot splendor?
Yes, though only one, you can't double up on vampire corpses to get to 4 or 5 dots.
- Location
- Norway
From the perspective of people expecting or aiming for general material immortality on Earth,
(and I want to emphasize a bit how much of a vain hope and a never-accomplished goal that is IRL, not even close, but I feel like some people of SV treat it as the default expectation any time the setting or game looks like it might be possible with some flexible interpretation of the mechanics)
then yes, Christianity is absolutely a death cult with "no suicide" and "no murder" emergency patches.
This doesn't come up much in regular discussions because such immortality has been wishful thinking for literal millennia IRL.
Christians treat it as a simply true fact that we are all going to die and have incorporated it into their theology. "Man is appointed to die once and then face judgment." Hebrews 9:27.
Some optimists believe otherwise. I'll believe it when I see an immortal.
I think the interaction of this with setting immortality might be one of those things we shouldn't think too hard about because it's just not going to make sense.
Look over at comic books. In particular, superhero comic books where lazy writers just keep bringing supers back from the dead again and again and again shouldn't have Christianity at all, because Christianity is founded on the Resurrection of Jesus, which is not that impressive when so many people keep coming back so frequently that there's jokes about "revolving door to the afterlife" both IC and OOC. Buuuut then the setting would be unrecognizable, so we get supervillains throwing superheroes through a church with no explanation.
- Location
- washington
Meh I'm an atheist but in a universe where it's clearly real and someone is as good as Michael I don't want to convince them to do otherwise just enjoy the time you have with them and don't try to make them compromise their beliefs. Invade heaven if you really wanna see them.
In a Dresdenverse, a number of humans and near-humans have live expectancy well above basic ungifted humans. Hell, it's plausible that Charity, despite turning her gift onto itself, might still expect to live for several centuries. Certainly rushing towards that final reward is not considered healthy - that's how you get suicide bombers.
Definitely. See my proposed questions below. Arianna's question is so we can try and mount a rescue operation thus further weakening Red Court. Elder question is so we can purge Red Court spies from... Everywhere, basically. As an alternative, I would ask for location of all Red Court bases of operation.
[X] Plan Exalted Effort
-[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
--[X] Head of Arianna Ortega (6th Generation Equivalent)
--[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
-[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
--[X] Arianna: Where are the gods that this one stolen from held?
--[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
Some idea of how you want the item to look would be helpful, as well as what the elements you are using are.
Ok, sure.
[X] Plan Exalted Effort
-[X] Use two foci to make a 3 dot splendor (Mystically fortified Protection against Possession, Mind Control, and Iron)
--[X] Head of Arianna Ortega (6th Generation Equivalent)
--[X] Red Court Elder Corpse (7th generation equivalent)
-[X] Use the foci for Crown questions before using them for crafting
--[X] Arianna: Where are the gods that this one stolen from held?
--[X] Red Court Elder: List of all covert Red Court agents
-[X] STUNT: The form the charm takes under your hands is a that of a small, burrowing owl carved out of a single piece of bone, so intricate as to seem alive and ready to take flight at any moment. The talisman, and it is clear that this is more than a mere decoration, hangs from a triple strand chain, links of your brass, summer fae gold, and human iron weaving around themselves in an alien facsimile of DNA, interlacing and reinforcing each other, all existing in perfect inseparable harmony. If one was to count them, there's precisely 125 links in each strand, threes and fives of Fates invoked together.
--[X] Talisman Mechanics: 3 Dot Adornment Splendor: Form of Dreams and Nightmares, Form of Portentous Moonlight, Form of Steadfast Earth, Sacred Protection, Mystic Fortification (-2 DC on Willpower rolls to resist possession or mind-control including multi-element attacks).
Detailed list of talisman effects:
- The Splendor stands out as a powerful work of magic when seen with chimerical eyes or mystic scrutiny, but it seems nigh-impossible to credit it with any specific significance if observed with purely mundane senses. Even when presented with compelling evidence that there's something weird about the object, anyone who hasn't made a magical survey of the Splendor must make a Willpower roll against difficulty 7 to accept such a conclusion.
- It raises the difficulty to affect the user with hostile works of Glamour by one.
- The Splendor can be summoned directly into the Umbra when made to manifest, if its owner desires.
- it grants its user the ability to see and interact with spirits on the other side of the Gauntlet.
- The Splendor is extremely rugged, and the first attempt to damage or destroy it in any scene automatically fails
- It grants its user one extra die of soak.
- It provides immunity to being crushed, cut, or pierced by stone or metal, possession, or the twisting of the mind by supernatural powers. If more than one characteristic is drawn upon when this Element grants its Protection, then instead of invincibility, damage is simply downgraded from aggravated to lethal, lethal to bashing, and bashing damage cut in half after soak (round down), while immunity to possession and thought alteration become the ability to make a Willpower roll at difficulty 5 to immediately shake the effect off.
@DragonParadox question concerning backround worldbuilding to alter the description above:
1) What is the metal associated with Summer Fae?
2) Does "threes and fives referencing Fates" make sense from Molly's perspective? She already associates 5 with Fates, but does she also associate 3 for their modern version?
EDIT:
More detailed design notes.
The main number of the design is 3. 3 is the number of Lily's souls - Hun, Po, and Mantle, existing out of alignment, and 3 are the number of Exalt's Soul, Great Maker's craft lending its perfection to the design. 3 are the number of Fates, of whom Summer Lady as a Fae Queen is a reflection, a piece, a shard. Thus, 3 are the number of chains that hold the talisman, interlinking in a triple helix reminiscent of DNA, which offers a threefold defense - against Possession, such as enjoyed by Celestial Exalts, against Mind Control, such as a mantle both grants and threatens with, and against Iron weapons of mortal men. On a meta-level, this is a 3 dot splendor, also lending further resonance to the design.
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