It says 'the language of spirits' not all languages spoken by all spirits. Unlike WoD (by way of Werewolf the Apocalypse) this world does not have a universal spirit language as you said so you get whatever the native language of the spirit you are talking to at the time is. I get how how you reached that conclusion, but the way the difference between this world and WoD works out more towards being able to talk to spirits than learning all languages since that is the point of the charm by RaI, from what I can tell.
Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)
- Thread starter DragonParadox
- Start date
- Crossover Fantasy
It says 'the language of spirits' not all languages spoken by all spirits. Unlike WoD (by way of Werewolf the Apocalypse) this world does not have a universal spirit language as you said so you get whatever the native language of the spirit you are talking to at the time is. I get how how you reached that conclusion, but the way the difference between this world and WoD works out more towards being able to talk to spirits than learning all languages since that is the point of the charm by RaI, from what I can tell.
Do we retain the knowledge after we've spoken to a spirit that uses it, or is it more of a universal translator thing where there isn't feedback on how the translation is happening?
Holy magic isn't the same as 'good' magic. It's about faith and god power, which we know the red court at least still has access to and makes use of. Plenty of other nasties out there with cults could do the same.
Hell, we know the denarians do exactly this because for quest purposes they need faith to use any of their powers. Hellfire might count as holy for this purpose.
Easily counterable isn't how I'd put it. You're creating conditions that then put additional limits on what we can do with it. Staying in the cloud of mist, or similar.
Gear can make almost any charm more effective anyway, so I don't see why we couldn't take a charm that is already better baseline and do the same sort of thing. Liquid dispensers for BHU, some sort of additional occult enhancement for CCI, that sort of thing.
The point is to be a defense. You don't buy a tank and then check if the armor will also make you coffee, or trade away protection for one that does if there's multiple options available.
The liquid teleport thing was also shot down already anyway.
1. Also, don't forget that Molly can't tank attacks with BME (that means she can't protect anyone or anything with BME) and
1.1. that CCI can make her impervious against the particular enemy for a turn.
2. This point means that we will need to spend AP and resources for mitigating BME flaws, and we won't be able to cope with holy power drawback. The cloud of darkness also will blind our allies.
3. CCI drawback can be mitigated with burning Crown question after deflecting an unknown attack. The answer will also be a mystical secret and give Molly two motes. It means that she will spend only one mote of Essence, like with any other perfect defence.
I am using "holy magic" as a short-tem slang for the actual text which says "attack enhanced by magic designed to strike down creatures of darkness.". So, magic specifically targeting creatures of darkness. Yes, it's not all holy (a number of our charms would actually qualify), but again, I don't think that most of our targets are capable of using such magic.
The point is to be useful. If the utility is in something beyond defense, it's still useful. And it's still a defense. Could you point me to where liquid teleport was shot down? The thread is moving fast, and I can't find it. If it was, then yes, you have convinced me, and I'll have to think what to switch it for.
I hope you don't mind, if I answer your question instead of BronzeTongue. I think it was here:
[X] Uju32
I gave two examples of enemies we're tangling with or will be tangling with soon who we have reason to believe have access to this sort of power. On what basis are you arguing that we won't have to deal with it?
More utility is better, but in my view we're shopping for something specific here. Trading defensive utility for other forms of utility in our perfect defense charm is suboptimal.
If we want to teleport, why not build a short range teleport prodigy instead?
Here's the post where mixing RVD and BME got nixed.
Yes, we did. We spent one point of Resources to hire Monoc Securities to do it.
No, it has barely been a month, I believe. We did it at the start of this turn.
Ok, thanks. I think I'll stick with
[X] Plan Speak Fervently and Have Reliable Defence
For now.
Incidentally, we were talking about making an internet deity earlier and I'd like to nominate Clippy for internet goddess.
Would she take the job @DragonParadox ?
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
I personally would prefer The City Still Stands over Counter-Conceptual Interposition for a few reasons.
1. The City still stands costs one less XP.
2. The City still stands Has synergy with all our soak charms rather than counter synergy. More health levels makes soak better.
3. The City still stands also works as a perfect defense against unexpected overwhelming attack. If a nuke we know nothing about comes down on us unaware when we are tapped out on essanse the The City still stands protects. This makes it a more reliable defense.
4.The City still stands doesn't require essanse for us to use. All charms which require essanse impose an opportunity cost. I don't want to have to ask everyone every time going into a fight if we should activate our soak charms or relay on Counter-Conceptual Interposition. Either choice has us effectively wasting alot of XP.
5.The City Still Stands means that we don't need to be so worried if we happen to lose some health. We also don't have to waste a combat turn transforming.
1. The City still stands costs one less XP.
2. The City still stands Has synergy with all our soak charms rather than counter synergy. More health levels makes soak better.
3. The City still stands also works as a perfect defense against unexpected overwhelming attack. If a nuke we know nothing about comes down on us unaware when we are tapped out on essanse the The City still stands protects. This makes it a more reliable defense.
4.The City still stands doesn't require essanse for us to use. All charms which require essanse impose an opportunity cost. I don't want to have to ask everyone every time going into a fight if we should activate our soak charms or relay on Counter-Conceptual Interposition. Either choice has us effectively wasting alot of XP.
5.The City Still Stands means that we don't need to be so worried if we happen to lose some health. We also don't have to waste a combat turn transforming.
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You retain the knowledge, it says the information is permanent.
That's not a perfect defense though. We have to fight all the way through our health track, with all the penalties that entails, and even then it only works once an arc.
It's nice, but it's not a perfect defense.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
It is a perfect defense. Nuke come down and blows up the earth Molly is fine. What else do you want to call that besides a perfect defense? Yes it only works once per arc, but so far there have been zero times we have needed a perfect defense so once per arc is likely surplus to requirements and yet will still work as a security blanket for the paranoid among us.
Incidentally, we were talking about making an internet deity earlier and I'd like to nominate Clippy for internet goddess.
Would she take the job @DragonParadox ?
Would the demon take more power? Yes, yes she would.
Why not Ablation of Brass and Fire, now that I think of it?
It synergies well with our Shintai and signature effect.
And it frees 4 XP, which could be used elsewhere. I'll have to think of it a bit.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
[X] Plan Speak Fervently and Have a security blanket that synergies with our current defenses
-[X] Molly: 28 XP
--[X] Alertness 1: 3xp
--[X] Awareness 1: 3xp
--[X] The City Still Stands 15 xp
--[X] Source Code Compliance Protocol: 4 XP
--[X] Hear Prayers: 2 XP
--[x]Save 1 xp
-[X] Lydia: 7 XP
--[X] Mo Kung/Demon Fighter (•) (Training Discount): 2xp
--[X] Willpower 6: 5 XP
[X]Plan gaining influence
-[X]Verdant Emptiness Endowment (•••••) (20 XP)
-[X]Ox Body x2 (6 XP)
-[X]Prayer Eating (•) (2 XP)
--[X] Lydia: 7 XP
-[X] Mo Kung/Demon Fighter (•) (Training Discount): 2xp
-[X] Willpower 6: 5 XP
[X]Yzarc
-[X] Molly: 28 XP
--[X] Alertness 1: 3xp
--[X] Awareness 1: 3xp
--[X] The City Still Stands 15 xp
--[X] Source Code Compliance Protocol: 4 XP
--[X] Hear Prayers: 2 XP
--[x]Save 1 xp
-[X] Lydia: 7 XP
--[X] Mo Kung/Demon Fighter (•) (Training Discount): 2xp
--[X] Willpower 6: 5 XP
[X]Plan gaining influence
-[X]Verdant Emptiness Endowment (•••••) (20 XP)
-[X]Ox Body x2 (6 XP)
-[X]Prayer Eating (•) (2 XP)
--[X] Lydia: 7 XP
-[X] Mo Kung/Demon Fighter (•) (Training Discount): 2xp
-[X] Willpower 6: 5 XP
[X]Yzarc
The difference is that it doesn't prevent anything but death.
Suppose we are in a fight that lethal and have allies or some goal other than killing the thing. What will happen to our allies/whatever we're defending if we're operating a maximum wound penalties for a significant period of time?
How about if we're facing someone with a perfect attack like ours that bypasses soak? We get one turn of invincibility then they tap us with wounded penalties again.
This is very nice. Picking up conversational enochian from Lash would be useful all on its own.
Edit: autocorrect error
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This isnt vanilla oWoD. This is the Dresden Files. There is no one language of spirits here.
There is a reason why wizards, whose job is to deal with spirits, dont actually bother having to learn any particular languages other than the Latin they use.
To the point where Dresden speaking Etruscan and Sumerian courtesy of Lash was something of note.
Thats English phrasing being English phrasing, I think.
The language of doctors isnt all one dialect, for example. Any more than the language of soldiers is.
1) It makes assumptions of WoD that are not true for the Dresden Files.
Not even for all the lines of WoD.
2) That is only true for Mage and Werewolf.
In Kindred of the East, as far as I can recall, the inhabitants of Yomi Wan spoke human languages, which isnt surprising given that the cosmology was a very Chinese-flavored one. Soul Commerce does not require learning a new language; visiting Yomi Wan does not either.
In Exalted, its the same thing.
The language of spirits in Dresden Files is basically just human languages.
Like I've gone to some effort to point out, every corporeal spirit we've seen, from Ethniu the Titan through the gods Odin and Hades to Shagnasty to Ulsharavas the demon, speak only human languages.
Angels speak to Ethniu in English in BG, and the anti-human Titan Ethniu speaks to Thorned Namshiel in the same language.
The Fae dont even have a separate language that we see in the several months Dresden is in rehab in Arctis Tor,.
Neither Molly nor Lily started speaking something new either.
I'd make allowance for Outsiders, because they are usually possessing a human being and using its brainmeats to talk, or doing psychic bullshit.
But everyone inside Creation? New spirits like Miyamune spring to life speaking human languages only.
Furthermore?
Spirits write here. Books, inscriptions on walls, the like. If the ruling you are declaring is adopted, the Infernal charmset has nothing that can handle it. If we go looking for old temples, there's nothing in the toolset that applies.
Its a pretty significant social and occult handicap.
fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
We will not be operating a maximum wound penalties for long and currently we are effectively wasting most of our health levels most fights from paranoia even when fighting alone.
Even we don't have that. Might as well ask about how we deal with the super archer that can always keeps distance and hit us from a mile away. Counter-Conceptual Interposition is helpless against that as it mote taps us to death. See I can also come up with ridiculous hypotheticals.
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You don't get to go both "by textual analysis" and "by the idea behind the charm" at the same time.
Also, since you are appealing to this not being WoD, honest question - what is the unified single language of spirits in WoD, and how does it apply to modern-ish ghosts?
You are trying to make the charm do work of what is clearly a different charm's intended purpose.
And they don't in WoD? Again, honest question.
Its an extra life.Not a perfect defense.
Worth taking, mind, but if you are arguing PDs, not really in the same category.
If the charm had said languages spoken by spirits I would have gone for your interpretation, even though that is not as through as all languages spoken by all spirits, but the fact that it is singular implies to me that the purpose of the charm is to allow the infernal to speak to any spirit they may come across, not to know all languages. Yes, that is limited, but it is still useful to be able to for instance communicate with any spirit you bind or intimidate into service.
I personally don't like the location type lock, and the fact that we'd need to pop Shintai to get around it. It's also sort of hard on our surroundings.