Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Dark power yes. Necromantic power no, there are no ghosts which means there is no resonance towards death-denied/being denied death. If you want to mind control someone, twist their body and minds, blast them to ash with fire or the like, that can readily be done.
Exactly my point Dark Bob is a wealth of knowledge that Molly is in the best position to use. Don't know why people are getting stuck on just necromancy. Zombies were not what made the Heirs so dangerous.
 
Our hell is full of dark power for our use.
These are not all the same thing because not all dark power is the same.

Necromancy doesn't and can't exist in the FCF, trying to do the next best thing is an energy sink and not a source:
This is accurate, not every instance law in this realm is enforced with the power of the Exaltation defending itself. If Harry were to levitate a rock the Exaltation would not smite him for altering the law of gravity so yes it is possible to alter and warp the workings of the Wheel and it generally goes... badly. But and this is important, unlike necromancy this is a power sink not a power source, you do not gain anything from trying to get someone to come back sooner or forcing conception beyond the bounds of the Wheel, you get tragedy and monsters, but no armies of the dead.

Edit:

Should have refreshed before posting.

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Exactly my point Dark Bob is a wealth of knowledge that Molly is in the best position to use. Don't know why people are getting stuck on just necromancy. Zombies were not what made the Heirs so dangerous.
Evil Bob is primarily the necromancy guy. That other stuff is no more his wheelhouse than it was regular Bob's. Zombies are entry level necromancy, manipulating death to your advantage is a whole field with a lot of applications.
 
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These are not all the same thing because not all dark power is the same.
Ok bad word choice on my part Dark magic not nerco. Every single one of my points still stands with a simple word replacement.

Edit: I also didn't refresh, but we never see Dark Bob so much as raise a single zombie*. So I don't know where you are getting that. He did all sorts of dark magic.

*I think it has been a few years since I read the books.
 
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His characterization is from a PoV character who is repeatedly signposted as having his impressions filtered through his biases.
We never actually see him work. Or indeed, hear any criticism of his work from anyone not named Dresden.
Hell, when Mab criticises him at the end of Summer Knight, she criticises his loyalty, not his capability.
We never see this power or competence in action, but we do see a lot of failure and issues. You're going to need actual evidence to back that claim.

You're not wrong about how luck plays into people's deaths, but a lot of that is also circumstance. Using iron on a fey at a special time of year at a special location isn't exactly a normal thing, and Harry isn't so strong he can't be knocked over. He's really an example of the knights not being all that, if he wasn't a wizard he'd have died at that encounter.

They're painfully mortal, and none of the properties you're attributing to them have any support beyond not being explicitly denied.

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Ok bad word choice on my part Dark magic not nerco. Every single one of my points still stands with a simple word replacement.

Edit: I also didn't refresh, but we never see Dark Bob so much as raise a single zombie*. So I don't know where you are getting that. He did all sorts of dark magic.

*I think it has been a few years since I read the books.
Dark Bob is explicitly the part of Bob that worked for Kemmler and drank the necromancy koolaid. Bob locked the information away so he wouldn't have to be like that, then kicked it out when he could to truly be free of it.

He probably knows other stuff, but dark Bob's core is being a necro nut who does necromancy.

Bob himself doesn't have a moral issue with much of anything, so if we wanted evil magic info he's as good a source as any.
 
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Also even if Mab does let us have Slade I give it good odds she wipes his mind of the relevant memories like she can very explicitly do to the winter knight.
We ask nicely.
If she isnt willing to trade him, we move on.

Too much certainly not enough evidence. Much necromantic knowledge isn't written down. In fact I suspect a big reason for Bob was a method for storaging knowledge without it being written down.
This is not true.

Kemmler was obsessed with writing and evangelizing his knowledge; he literally published four different books on necromancy and spread them around Europe.
The White Council spent years reenacting Fahrenheit 421, and still didnt get them all.
With all due respect it's valuable to use for exactly those reasons and more. Our hell is flooded with necromantic energy and Kemlar knew more than Lydia Dad did. That was the whole plot.
This is not true.

Our Hell is not flooded with necromantic energy, and Kemmler was only stated to have shared some knowledge with Lydia's Dad. If he had superior knowledge of death, he wouldnt be running from the god of death.
Arawn certainly didnt consider him a greater expert when he was hunting him.

Kemmler was the greatest *mortal* necromancer.
You're doing the equivalent of claiming that a war criminal is the best, most knowledgeable doctor in the world because he was willing to vivisect prisoners without anesthetic.

Skill Issue. We don't have to depend on just bindings or social but are in a position to have the two methods reinforce each other especially with dark spirits.
This is not true.

Victor Sells died to his own spirit summon in Storm Front. Madge the sorceress died to her own spirit summon in Blood Rites.
Cowl was promptly sabotaged by Bob once he released the skull. Corpsetaker had Evil Bob promptly try to sell her out to Dresden in Ghost Story, and died to the ghosts she had summoned and caged.

Hell, Dresden almost got killed by the Erlking after summoning him in Dead Beat and losing control.

There is a consistent pattern with these things.
Bound spirits have no loyalty to their summoners; thats why wizards actually try to bargain and get assent rather than simply attempt to compel obedience.
 
Described as a hack by Dresden just about every single time he came up.
Cowl was promptly sabotaged by Bob once he released the skull.
So Cowl who doesn't have HellScry Charka misread Evil Bob's intentions and let him go. Seems like a skill issue to me.
Corpsetaker had Evil Bob promptly try to sell her out to Dresden in Ghost Story, and died to the ghosts she had summoned and caged.
It seems that you just fundamentally don't seem to understand that we can read Dark Bob far more comfortably than we can read Lash. You were the one that campaigned so strongly for HellScry Charka. Corpsetaker didn't understand Dark Bob or his intentions we can.

Also ask yourselves why all those masters of Dark Bob considering Dark Bob so worth having?
 
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It seems that you just fundamentally don't seem to understand that we can read Dark Bob far more comfortably than we can read Lash. You were the one that campaigned so strongly for HellScry Charka. Corpsetaker didn't understand Dark Bob or his intentions we can.
Reading his intent isn't super helpful if he's working at cross purposes with us. Riding herd on him would be more trouble than it's worth.
 
Reading his intent isn't super helpful if he's working at cross purposes with us. Riding herd on him would be more trouble than it's worth.
I do admit to be working under an extreme disadvantage because I don't actually know what Dark Bob knows or would allow us to do*. So it is hard to convince that his vast Dark Knowledge is actually useful. But riding herd on him seems super easy for us. Just don't let him out unless we actually trust his intentions. We don't have any reason to have him wonder around it's not as if Harry ever lets Bob out of his basement.

*I can make all sorts of speculation.
 
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I do admit to be working under an extreme disadvantage because I don't actually know what Dark Bob knows or would allow us to do*. So it is hard to convince that his vast Dark Knowledge is actually useful. But riding herd on him seems super easy for us. Just don't let him out unless we actually trust his intentions. We don't have any reason to have him wonder around it's not as if Harry ever lets Bob out of his basement.

*I can make all sorts of speculation.
Why are you arguing the point then?

Evil Bob has a lot of information, but it's finite and specific. He doesn't know a lot that that we're particularly well equipped to take advantage of (or at least have more of an advantage in than any other random option) or that fills a hole in our kit.

Keeping him trapped as our knowledge slave isn't necessarily the riskiest thing we could do, but the return on doing so isn't that high relative to it.

I could get on board with killing him and making a prodigy that records some of that information for us, but I don't expect it too be very useful for us in the direct sense.
 
Ok bad word choice on my part Dark magic not nerco. Every single one of my points still stands with a simple word replacement.

Edit: I also didn't refresh, but we never see Dark Bob so much as raise a single zombie*. So I don't know where you are getting that. He did all sorts of dark magic.

*I think it has been a few years since I read the books.
This is not true.
We do not once see Evil Bob do magic that isnt necromancy or necromancy-adjacent. Necromancy is magic dealing with death; we see Evil Bob command evil spirits just fine.

In Ghost Story he constructs NeverNever fortifications around Mortimer's house, puts up Nazi flags, and has some sort of undead demonic spirits manning the defenses while wearing SS uniforms.
He himself wears an SS uniform.
Ghost Story c43 said:
I heard slow, heavy, confident footsteps. Clomp. Clomp. Then a pair of black jackboots appeared at the top of the trench. My gaze tracked up the SS officer's uniform, which included a black leather trench coat not too unlike my own. It wasn't one of the wolfwaffen. Instead of a deformed, monstrous wolf face, this being had only a bare skull sitting atop the uniform's high collar. Blue fire glowed in its eye sockets and it regarded me with cold disdain.
"A worthy effort for a novice," Evil Bob said.
"I wish you to know that I regret your death as the loss of significant potential." He lifted what was probably not actually a Luger pistol and aimed it calmly at my head. "Good-bye, Dresden."
Evil Bob is not a joking moniker.

Described as a hack by Dresden just about every single time he came up.
Almost killed Dresden multiple times.
Turns out that Victor Sells could learn just fine.

So Cowl who doesn't have HellScry Charka misread Evil Bob's intentions and let him go. Seems like a skill issue to me.
Yes, Cowl, who stood at ground zero of a Darkhallow misfire and still walked away.
Cowl, who actually knew what Bob was well enough to send someone to steal him away from Dresden.

It seems that you just fundamentally don't seem to understand that we can read Bob far more comfortably than we can read Lash. You were the one that campaigned so strongly for HellScry Charka. Corpsetaker didn't understand Dark Bob or his intentions we can.
You are making expansive claims about a powerful evil spirit we have only met once, and that once we had no particular success at either putting him down physically or talking him around.
We broke his vessel and he fled. That was it.

This is not what Hellscry Chakra is for.
It will give you an edge on reading a person's emotions in a conversation.
Its not telepathy. Its not an absolute effect.

It wont tell you what the person is doing when you arent around or babysitting them.
 
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This is not true.

We do not once see Evil Bob do magic that isnt necromancy or necromancy-adjacent. Necromancy is magic dealing with death; we see Evil Bob command evil spirits just fine.

In Ghost Story he constructs NeverNever fortifications around Mortimer's house, puts up Nazi flags, and has some sort of undead demonic spirits manning the defenses while wearing SS uniforms.
Thank you for listing a few useful skills.
Creating Never-Never fortifications very useful considering that we have a student in dream magic.
Commanding Dark Spirits. Most of the spirits attracted to us are dark.

And he can be expected to know more.


Almost killed Dresden multiple times.
Turns out that Victor Sells could learn just fine.
Are you actually trying to argue honestly right now? Next you are going to say that the guy that beat Harry with a tire Iron must therefore be a master wizard.

Yes, Cowl, who stood at ground zero of a Darkhallow misfire and still walked away.

Cowl, who actually knew what Bob was well enough to send someone to steal him away from Dresden.
So Cowl master dark wizard thought that Bob was valuable enough to go to extra trouble to steal. But I don't know why you are talking like this says anything about his ability to control or work with him.
You are making expansive claims about a powerful evil spirit we have only met once, and that once we had no particular success at either putting him down physically or talking him around.
We broke his vessel and he fled. That was it.

This is not what Hellscry Chakra is for.
It will give you an edge on reading a person's emotions in a conversation.
Its not telepathy. It wont tell you what the person is doing when you arent around or babysitting them.
Yes it is an tool that complements all our other tools for dealing with creatures of darkness. Including social skills that let us read Lash who seems far more socially focused. Also why in the world would we have to babysit Dark Bob? Just leave him bound in a basement most of the time like Harry does with Bob.

And yes I am deliberately renaming him because Evil Bob was a name given by the fairly ignorant Harry after one very short meeting and biases the discussion.
 
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Okay, not particularly relevant to the current discussion, but relevant to current events in the quest: I want to be on good terms with Summer when this resolves. Mostly because they're the one faction more likely than anyone else to have access to large amounts of Elemental Wood of sufficient quality for us to forge into Elemental Jade, and be willing to sell it to us for relatively cheap.

We already have easy access to each of the other elements through our existing charms and resources:
  • RVD to the bottom of the ocean to gather Elemental Water, since if it doesn't exist there it doesn't exist anywhere.
  • RVD to the Arctic, punch through the ice and fly into a blizzard. Elemental Air in Exalted is both wind and cold, so the heart of an Arctic blizzard should definitely count.
  • RVD to some island volcano and use TLF to grab some lava for Elemental Fire.
  • And finally we have Porter the Earth Elemental as our personal vassal, so it should be easy for him to burrow down deep and grab some Elemental Earth for us.
That makes Wood the last element we need for the full quintet of Elemental Jade, and at that point we can start to really go ham on what we create… like capping off our Dragon's Nest with a Manse over the course of the summer. Which is something that I'm personally excited for.
 
Why wouldn't we just turn him into a book and keep it in the Five Courts for security at this point?
Mostly because killing a sentient being when we don't have to seems wrong. But also because an archive is far more useful with an index.

Also after dealing with him for a year or so we should have a good enough handle on him for other uses.
 
Thank you for listing a few useful skills.
Creating Never-Never fortifications very useful considering that we have a student in dream magic.
Commanding Dark Spirits. Most of the spirits attracted to us are dark.
Binding and warding are standard things, and never never fortifications are probably under warding. A fair number just use minions, so we don't need help to do it.

So Cowl master dark wizard thought that Bob was valuable enough to go to extra trouble to steal. But I don't know why you are talking like this says anything about his ability to control or work with him.
Cowl was a master necromancer and Bob was a reservoir of necromatic lore, or course he found it useful.

Dark magic isn't a fungible resource, lore on messing with death isn't directly useful to us.


Just leave him bound in a basement most of the time like Harry does with Bob.
Dark Bob caught cult-ideology, which is why he dresses up as an SS officer. He as ambitions of his own and wants to do things other than being an encyclopedia.
Mostly because killing a sentient being when we don't have to seems wrong. But also because an archive is far more useful with an index.

Also after dealing with him for a year or so we should have a good enough handle on him for other uses.
… He's an actual nazi that doesn't have to kill people but does anyway. Then he does sickening shit to their souls for his advantage.
The last of the instruments are broken so you rush the door towards the front, cut your way into... well it looks like a bedroom, but all the sheets are covered in oil or blood or both. There are bodies in some of them.

"Don't look!" you shout back to Lydia. You mostly take your own advice, but you know even the glimpses you catch of them will haunt your nightmares. These people, you think it is more of the staff had died... badly. One woman with her wrists bound together in mockery of prayer and her neck slashed open starts to twitch as though to shamble to her feet, but then she jerks and falls, mercifully inanimate again. Whatever power the dark had gotten it was not infinite.
Molly has her nightmares, but very few things get mentioned as being so sick that they're going to get added in. The intestine macaroni art from earlier in the assault didn't even get the same reaction.

Evil Bob does this because he likes it and thinks this is how the world should work. Not killing him because killing is wrong is a ridiculous take.
 
Dark magic isn't a fungible resource, lore on messing with death isn't directly useful to us.
It totally is we have alot of things to kill. But I don't know why Dark Bob's lore is being interpreted as being so narrow. He has been constantly and consistently portrayed as being Bob's equal or better. Which means a whole lot of lore.
 
It totally is we have alot of things to kill. But I don't know why Dark Bob's lore is being interpreted as being so narrow. He has been constantly and consistently portrayed as being Bob's equal or better. Which means a whole lot of lore.
No it isn't. Dark magic for DF purposes is a political term for stuff the council doesn't like. Mind magic and necromancy for example don't have overlap. There isn't a generic 'dark energy' you draw on to make this stuff work or something.

We could learn necro nonsense, but it offers no unique advantages to us and has its own issues on a practical level. We can do better because investing in other routes.

Evil Bob is strong because he's got a lot of deep, scary, lore that he uses to amp himself. If he was the larger portion of Bob then the 'good' side wouldn't have been the one doing the suppressing when they were a single entity.

Remember that Bob is himself a scary strong entity when loose to do things himself. Evil Bob being a fraction of him that takes steroids says something about how strong good Bob is to
Have been the dominant force of the two.
 
If Dark Bob only knew how to raise zombies yes that is totally useless. But it also leads to the question of why bunches of Dark Wizards that already know how to raise Zombies wanted to work with him so badly.
 
If Dark Bob only knew how to raise zombies yes that is totally useless. But it also leads to the question of why bunches of Dark Wizards that already know how to raise Zombies wanted to work with him so badly.
Considering how much some of them glaze Kemmler -who is totally dead for real this time guys trust me bro- they probably see Bob as a religious artifact and the closest analogue to Kemmler's brain that exist.
 
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If Dark Bob only knew how to raise zombies yes that is totally useless. But it also leads to the question of why bunches of Dark Wizards that already know how to raise Zombies wanted to work with him so badly.
You're oversimplifying. Raising zombies isn't the only thing necromancy does. A lot of stuff does involve controlling the dead, but Kemmler did things like turn necromancy into an apotheosis ritual. You can also probably use death juice to fuel at least some other spells if you know how, like what Dresden does to fuel fire spells with ambient anger.
 
If you want ancient forbidden magic lore that Archive doesn't know, just honeypot Broken Seeker. As the divine teacher of people who include dragonblooded among their number and, as I understand it, mostly rely on oral tradition, he's our best bet as far as getting dark magic secrets go.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Goldfish on Nov 13, 2023 at 6:21 PM, finished with 109 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Start looking into potential splendors to help Lily, and the politics involved in trying to give it to her.
    [X] Plan Better Living through Crafting
    -[X] Renew excellencies, if needed
    -[X] Try to advise Lilly on how to keep those parts of herself she does not wish to lose
    --[X] Offer her a boon - a treasure to protect her mind from changes brought on by magic (a 2 dot splendor protecting against mind alteration and possession) at the cost of the twice the materials, including subjugated monsters for your to sacrifice, needed to make one, and essentially being advertisement to Fae queens of what you can make
    --[X] Advise her how to sell the idea of a perfect mental defense to Titania without revealing her true motives
    ---[X] Subterfuge excellency
    -[X] Seriously consider Usum's idea, once you are at the Last Station summon Mab to ask her advice on how workable it would be and if aid with this would fall under the terms of Winter's debt to you
    [x] Seriously consider Usum's idea, once you are at the Last Station summon Mab to ask her advice on how workable it would be and if aid with this would fall under the terms of Winter's debt to you
 
If you want ancient forbidden magic lore that Archive doesn't know, just honeypot Broken Seeker. As the divine teacher of people who include dragonblooded among their number and, as I understand it, mostly rely on oral tradition, he's our best bet as far as getting dark magic secrets go.
A bit harder to lock him in jar. Also his type of insanity makes me much less confident on being able to get a good read on him. He could be completely sincere one minute and change his mind the next.
 
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