Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Faerie Knights are both lightweight (literally any wizard could gank them) and have a short shelf life; easy come, easy go.
I doubt Slate, who canonical dealt mainly with Maeve, has much insight into the highest echelons of the Winter Court where we play at.
Neither of these assertions are true.
Summer Knight chapter 10
I mulled it over for a moment. "No," I said finally. "She twisted things around a lot."
"So it's possible that she did do it. Or had it done, at any rate."
"Right," I said. "So to find out if it was one of the Queens, we'd need to find her hitter. How tough would it be to kill one of these Knights?"
"A flight of stairs wouldn't do it. A couple of flights of stairs wouldn't do it. Maybe if he went on an elevator ride with you—"
"Very funny." I frowned, drumming my pen on the table. "So it would have taken that little something extra to take out Reuel. Who could manage it?"
"Regular folks could do it. But they wouldn't be able to do it without burning buildings and smoking craters and so on. To kill him so that it looked like an accident? Maybe another Knight could. Among the Sidhe, it was either the Winter Knight or one of the Queens."
"Could a wizard do it?"

"That goes without saying. But you'd have to be a pretty brawny wizard, have plenty of preparation and a good channel to him. Even then, smoking craters would be easier than an accident."
"The wizards have all been in duck-and-cover mode lately. And there are too many of them to make a practical suspect pool. Let's assume that it was probably internal faerie stuff. That cuts it down to three suspects."
"Three?"
"The three people who could have managed it. Summer Queen, Winter Queen, Winter Knight. One, two, three."
"Harry, I said it could have been one of the Queens."
I blinked up at the skull. "There are more than two?"
"Yeah, technically there are three."
"Three?"
"In each Court."
"Three Queens in each Court? Six?" That's just silly."
"Not if you think about it. Each Court has three Queens: The Queen Who Was, the Queen Who Is, and the Queen Who Is to Come."
"Great. Which one does the Knight work for?"
"All of them. It's kind of a group thing. He has different duties to each Queen."

I felt the headache start at the base of my neck and creep toward the crown of my head. "Okay, Bob. I need to know about these Queens."
"Which ones? The ones Who Are, Who Were, or Who Are to Come?"
Maeve was the person who picked Slate. But Slate did not work for Maeve only, or even primarily.

The position of Knight bears enough power that transferring it from one Court to another was enough to permanently destabilize the power balance. That Lloyd Slate believed that acquiring the power of both Winter and Summer Knights would have been enough to stand up to, or kill Maeve.
 
Neither of these assertions are true.
Summer Knight chapter 10

Maeve was the person who picked Slate. But Slate did not work for Maeve only, or even primarily.

The position of Knight bears enough power that transferring it from one Court to another was enough to permanently destabilize the power balance. That Lloyd Slate believed that acquiring the power of both Winter and Summer Knights would have been enough to stand up to, or kill Maeve.

1. Winter and Summer are balanced, so much so even the little power that resides in the Mantles of the Knights will change it. But the power inherent to the Mantle doesn't mean the Knights themselves are powerful; Dresden is powerful because he's a wizard who knows how to handle such a power source, while no random Knight has ever been shown or said to be equal to a wizard in any way.

2. Slate was an idiot. That he believed something stupid should not be a surprise, but that doesn't mean we should believe him.

Also, consider how Maeve died. Consider how Lily died. You don't exactly need a lot of power to pop a cap in the Faerie Lady's ass.
 
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We dont need immunity even. Mab in this AU made the Mantle bend.
And in canon, both Molly and Dresden have maintained a measure of equilibrium while carrying the Winter Lady and Winter Knight Mantles respectively.

Its not an absolute effect. The issues that Lily appears to be having appear to be in part mother-in-law problems.

Lily's career at this point is roughly four years in.
Molly had been at the job for two years with fewer issues because Mab, while with her own opinions, wasnt pushing to turn her into her lost daughter.

I am getting the feeling that part of the problem is that Lily got no training beforehand, and the other part is Titania unconsciously piling pressure to conform to an unnecessary ideal.
A little similar to Molly's problems with Charity, actually. Only Lily cant just move out.

Remember? The Mantle can pressure you.
Hoever there are hard limits to how much it can do, and how far it can go.
Else Maeve would have been a much more diligent Winter Lady.
Eh being childish and such might be literally part of Maeve's mantle she is in the lady role after all.
 
I do like outright returning the mantle to the summer court though. Especially if we can say it was done at the request of the Summer Lady
I don't think that will cut it for either of us. The mantles are basically their nukes and their leadership in one. Cutting it out and setting it loose is bad enough, capturing it so it doesn't pull another Lily and then returning it would be so much worse.

Instant enmity, and any attempt to negotiate with them before handing it back would be treated as holding it hostage.

You can't just casually fiddle with sovereign powers' vital stuff and expect them to shrug it off because you had good intentions. Especially if your intentions revolve around something they fundamentally don't give a shit about, like this situation.
 
Underlined errors in order of reading are:

"Only about a third of the way to Oz," Lilly smiles as she closes the door behind you. "That it is a Jacaranda if you're wondering, it's an Australian tree, all the flowers in here are from Earth, no magic to them, though some—" she points at one of the handful of benches scattered around the harden in such a way that makes it clear they are making room for the roots and underbrush not the other way around— "have gone extinct otherwise."

garden not harden

"Two favors does Winter owe to thine deathless throne," he reminds you. "One alone would be enough to guard you from the wrath of the Summer Court for such a transgression. As it would be in service of Winter's wider goal of guarding the wold from those Outside the Cold Queen might even approve."

world not wold

I'm looking forward to the whatever vote wins this time. Don't rush it. See you next chapter.
 
I don't think that will cut it for either of us. The mantles are basically their nukes and their leadership in one. Cutting it out and setting it loose is bad enough, capturing it so it doesn't pull another Lily and then returning it would be so much worse.

Instant enmity, and any attempt to negotiate with them before handing it back would be treated as holding it hostage.

You can't just casually fiddle with sovereign powers' vital stuff and expect them to shrug it off because you had good intentions. Especially if your intentions revolve around something they fundamentally don't give a shit about, like this situation.

The nice demon did provide a reason that you might be able to sell to Summer, this is a vulnerability to the Enemy of All. How do I know? I read its past when I looked into its eyes. That would be far from polite but it would constitute mitigating circumstances for the insult. The Summer Triad do all know what Winter is for.
 
The nice demon did provide a reason that you might be able to sell to Summer, this is a vulnerability to the Enemy of All. How do I know? I read its past when I looked into its eyes. That would be far from polite but it would constitute mitigating circumstances for the insult. The Summer Triad do all know what Winter is for.
Yeah, but it's still an insult and a clear demonstration that we'll play with their toys when in suits us.

I can see that being finessed into not being immediately attacked, but I can't see them forgetting or forgiving it.
 
He was supposed to be their Bond, but he worked directly for Maeve most of the time. That's how he ended up turning traitor. He was even worse at his job than she is hers.

He was a meat head that Maeve kept around, and Mab didn't replace him on the spot because she was scouting people worth the effort to replace him.
This isnt true.
Nowhere is it suggested that he was actually bad at his job. Not up to Mab's standards, perhaps, but bad at the job?
Not at all true.

Slate successfully assassinated Reuel without leaving a trace.
And Reuel was an old Summer Knight, who grew old in the job, with everything that implies for his competence, experience and luck. You dont pull off shit like that by counting bottle caps.
The knight is a tool for the winter queens, and this particular knight was a blunt instrument. He probably got less than Dresden does, and Winter wasn't exactly open to him in canon.

You're also basically asking for him to pump him for information on Winter specifically, which arguably runs into one of the clauses that restrict our favor.

Either I'm right and he's worse than worthless, or you're right and trading him away would be a strategic problem for Winter. Not a good ask when he specifically isn't necessary for anything we're trying to do.

It's not like it's beyond our capabilities to become friends/trading partners with some Sidhe on either side of the line and get what we want that way.
None of this is true either.

Dresden has been deliberately avoiding playing with the Sidhe power structure, and is aloof at best.
Slate, on the other hand, had the connects to intrigue with the Summer Lady right under Winter's nose.
That takes serious chops.


We're not interested in him for information on Winter.
We're interested in him for information on what Winter knew about other major factions and threats as of four years ago. Its the equivalent of getting a look at the CIA/NSA's classified files on Russia/China/the EU as a newly independent nation.


As for schmoozing other people?
We had it explicitly demonstrated in Dead Beat that Winter's command structure has varying levels of information access.

When Dresden tried to summon Lea for information on the Kemmlerites but got Mab, Mab gave him information that Lea would have had by job and experience.
Not all the information that Winter had available, or that other people would have had for their jobs.

Man's the only source on the market.
He's not all access, but by the nature of his job, he had to have pretty high access to do it right.


1. Winter and Summer are balanced, so much so even the little power that resides in the Mantles of the Knights will change it. But the power inherent to the Mantle doesn't mean the Knights themselves are powerful; Dresden is powerful because he's a wizard who knows how to handle such a power source, while no random Knight has ever been shown or said to be equal to a wizard in any way.

2. Slate was an idiot. That he believed something stupid should not be a surprise, and we should not believe him.
1) Its not little. Ask the city of Milwaukee.
Many a Knight has no extraenous power source the way a wizard Knight like Dresden does, yet the Mantle of Knight provides enough grunt to make them a seriousface threat anyway. And they do get training in how to use it from their Court.

There's a significant amount of power there. Its just seldom necessary to have a Knight that can use all of it.

When Winter Knight Dresden fought Summer Knight Fix in Cold Days, he didnt overpower him.
He beat him because he had more combat experience.
And because it was Demonreach, where he had Intellectus on his side.


2)Slate wasnt an idiot.
A drug user, sure, but that doesnt actually make you stupid, any more than Shagnasty's murderous habits make him an imbecile. He's no Dresden, but he didnt have to be to do the job that was needed at the time.
 
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2)Slate wasnt an idiot.
A drug user, sure, but that doesnt actually make you stupid, any more than Shagnasty's murderous habits make him an imbecile. He's no Dresden, but he didnt have to be to do the job that was needed at the time.
Maeve didn't care if Slate killed and raped a few people regularly we do.
 
Dark Bob is likely the greatest Encyclopedia of dark and necromantic magic in the world maybe even including the Archive. As an Infernal who is friends with the Death God that is very valuable information that we are better able to put to actually GOOD use then anyone else in the entire setting both from a moral and skill perspective. Basically half our charms are dark power that we twist to good use what is some more?

Slade was a traitorous human. I don't consider him being fundamentally human to be at all a upside when he is explicitly a bad human with free will to exercise*. Spirts on the other hands can be bound in all sorts of ways. In fact if we say used Crowned in Fury on Dark Bob I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't even able to consider hurting himself to disobeying commands. He might rules lawyer, but we can have firm ground to stand on.

Dark Bob has also operated at the very highest ends of policy implementation for the setting's biggest superpowers. Winter, then Kelmar, then Harry.

*It doesn't even have to be acts of malice or careful thought. Say Slade gets high and rapes a girl when working for us. That is just as much a problem as anything Dark Bob might do.
1) Evil Bob had less knowledge than the Archive.

2) With respect? Thats of negative value to us.
Our Hell doesnt even have permanent death. And Lydia is an Exigent of Death, not an Exigent of Necromancy.
She has an actual god of death whispering in her ear to boot.

3) As both Bob and Dresden will tell you from personal experience, binding hostile spirits is a chancy affair. At best.
And Cowl will attest to that as well.

Maeve didn't care if Slate killed and raped a few people regularly we do.
And why do you think he would be doing any such thing in Molly's custody?
Do you think the Red Court vampire PoWs we have are allowed to kill and drain people dry like they would back home?

Maeve (allegedly)deliberately prompted his drug use and raping people as a method of control.
We dont have a need for that.
And wouldnt do it anyway.
 
You dont pull off shit like that by counting bottle caps.
You do however apparently die getting pushed down some stairs. I'm not terribly impressed by the fey knights, and there is little to no evidence of this competence you're insisting on.

His entire characterization from his first appearance runs counter to it, and your primary evidence is the idea that winter would've done something to correct it. Winter is effective, but it isn't perfect and its internal politics can get complicated.

Dresden has been deliberately avoiding playing with the Sidhe power structure, and is aloof at best.
Slate, on the other hand, had the connects to intrigue with the Summer Lady right under Winter's nose.
That takes serious chops.
You mean when nemesis was playing all sides and using him as a dupe? Real great job by the guy who's supposed to be primary mortal agent of the anti-outsider people.

I don't think he has any great store of information equal to the favor. You haven't presented any actual evidence of him doing anything in this area and are hyping him on implication.

1) Its not little. Ask the city of Milwaukee.
Many a Knight has no extraenous power source the way a wizard Knight like Dresden does, yet the Mantle of Knight provides enough grunt to make them a seriousface threat anyway. And they do get training in how to use it from their Court.
Yet summer's still died to a flight of stairs, and we only see mild enhancements without wizard nonsense getting involved with either of the follow up knights. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason this happened was that they were fighting over something powerful or brought stronger fey with them.

This is incidentally another example of a fuck up. Slate made such a mess it contributed to the decision to make the Accords happen.
 
Also even if Mab does let us have Slade I give it good odds she wipes his mind of the relevant memories like she can very explicitly do to the winter knight.
 
Seriously, let the man rot. If we want some nebulous information about the major factions we can get it ourselves without spending major resources on someone who probably can't give us anything worth the trouble.

Just being a Winter guy doesn't automatically make him a hot shot with all sorts of cool secrets to share.
 
I will say this much, it seems unlikely to Molly that the knights alone caused Milwaukee. Most likely it was some kind of clash of Winter and Summer lead by their knights, being the ones who allowed power to be used in that way by their presence. As for quite how it happened, you guys could go there and ask a Crown question, it would yield decent information.
 
We don't need Slate. We might do Mab a favor and use him (or some weapon of his) and ask "who are the top five mortals most suited to receive the power of Winter Knight according to the standards set by Winter Queens".
 
1) Evil Bob had less knowledge than the Archive.
Too much certainly not enough evidence. Much necromantic knowledge isn't written down. In fact I suspect a big reason for Bob was a method for storaging knowledge without it being written down.
2) With respect? Thats of negative value to us.
Our Hell doesnt even have permanent death. And Lydia is an Exigent of Death, not an Exigent of Necromancy.
She has an actual god of death whispering in her ear to boot.
With all due respect it's valuable to us for exactly those reasons and more. Our hell is flooded with necromantic energy and Kemlar knew more than Lydia Dad did. That was the whole plot.

I can't give specifics because I don't know exactly what he knows or there would be no point in this, but if Dark Bob doesn't have knowledge useful to us I will be very very surprised.

How to make greater Akuma or really the entire soul market tricks.
How to make it so that willing people who die go to our kingdom.
Are examples of the top of my head.
3) As both Bob and Dresden will tell you from personal experience, binding hostile spirits is a chancy affair. At best.
And Cowl will attest to that as well.
Skill Issue. We don't have to depend on just bindings or social but are in a position to have the two methods reinforce each other especially with dark spirits.

We can both bind and convince them to not be hostile and see if they are lieing or even generally being duplicitous.
 
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There's a very solid argument for giving Lily an alternative to being shaped into a carbon copy of Aurora by the Mantle of the Summer Lady. Aurora wasn't just being puppeted by Nemesis. Manipulated, sure, but she had personal motivation for her actions. Lily needs to bring something different to the Summer Lady, or it just risks history repeating itself.

The only one I see having any real resistance to the truth of that would be Titania, and that would be resistance born of grief. A denial rather than a true disagreement, and I think that we could handle that.
 
Too much certainly not enough evidence. Much necromantic knowledge isn't written down. In fact I suspect a big reason for Bob was a method for storaging knowledge without it being written down.
Not for nothing, but Kemmler actually did write down all of his stuff. Only one of his books made it into the canon time frame, but he had a thing about legacy and it took the council a good deal of effort to erase all the stuff he published.

Most wizards seem to keep very good notes too, because they're doing a mix of primary research, engineering, and art when they work with magic.

Ivy probably knows everything evil Bob in particular does and more, but losing out to the ongoing record of all writing ever produced by mortal hands isn't exactly a failure. Very few people ever learn enough for it to even be worth the comparison.

Our hell is flooded with necromantic energy and Kemlar knew more than Lydia Dad did. That was the whole plot.
Our hell is explicitly does not and cannot support necromancy because it isn't an energy positive activity. Messing with the wheel might be possible, but you can't use that to make yourself more powerful directly.
 
You do however apparently die getting pushed down some stairs. I'm not terribly impressed by the fey knights, and there is little to no evidence of this competence you're insisting on.

His entire characterization from his first appearance runs counter to it, and your primary evidence is the idea that winter would've done something to correct it. Winter is effective, but it isn't perfect and its internal politics can get complicated.
Yes, the same way Summer Lady Aurora died by being slashed to death by pixies wielding box-knives from Walmart.
Or Corpsetaker died the second time to a swarm of ghosts.
Or Winter Knight Dresden almost got killed by a pixie.

Turns out that if your opposition is good, or smart, or lucky, they can kill you. Not everyone gets a glorious, or remarkable death.


His characterization is from a PoV character who is repeatedly signposted as having his impressions filtered through his biases.
We never actually see him work. Or indeed, hear any criticism of his work from anyone not named Dresden.
Hell, when Mab criticises him at the end of Summer Knight, she criticises his loyalty, not his capability.

You mean when nemesis was playing all sides and using him as a dupe? Real great job by the guy who's supposed to be primary mortal agent of the anti-outsider people.

I don't think he has any great store of information equal to the favor. You haven't presented any actual evidence of him doing anything in this area and are hyping him on implication.
Nemesis has played Dresden onscreen. Has evidently played Mab AND Titania.
Hell, played the previous Queen of Summer in this AU.
Thats not evidence of suckage.


I beg to differ. Freeing him if I recall correctly would have been enough to raise Molly's enmity with Winter from 1 to 4


I am making assertions based on the sort of independent task we have seen both Dresden and Fix get saddled with in-canon
And on his evidenced capability for subterfuge.
You dont run the kind of work he was hired for while blind.

Especially if your opposite number, the Summer Knight, is anywhere as competent as his survival appeared to suggest.

Yet summer's still died to a flight of stairs, and we only see mild enhancements without wizard nonsense getting involved with either of the follow up knights. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason this happened was that they were fighting over something powerful or brought stronger fey with them.

This is incidentally another example of a fuck up. Slate made such a mess it contributed to the decision to make the Accords happen.
The only time we see a Summer Knight-Winter Knight fight onscreen, its on Demonreach, and its brief, because the Winter Knight is the Warden of the island.
A fight elsewhere? A protracted fight? I can see how that might escalate.


Why do you think that Mab having an excuse to formalize the latest iteration of customary rules on the rest of the supernatural setting was a fuckup?
If I didnt know better, I would suspect that Winter and Summer were in cahoots to stage that confrontation.
:V
 
While your hell is filled with infernal Essence enough to make most Black Magic users giddy
Our hell is explicitly does not and cannot support necromancy because it isn't an energy positive activity. Messing with the wheel might be possible, but you can't use that to make yourself more powerful directly.
Our hell is full of dark power for our use. There are many other sorts of dark magic and Dark Bob knows more of them.

Right now Molly has to adapt all magic lessons to use her own dark power. It would be nice if we could skip a step.
 
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Our hell is full of dark power for our use. There are many other sorts of dark magic and Dark Bob knows more of them.

Dark power yes. Necromantic power no, there are no ghosts which means there is no resonance towards death-denied/being denied death. If you want to mind control someone, twist their body and minds, blast them to ash with fire or the like, that can readily be done.
 
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