Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

Okay.
This is soluble. Difficult, and with broader implications, but soluble.
We could do Titania diplomacy, or Lily diplomacy, or crafting, or all three.

The larger problem I can see is that Titania is still unbalanced.
Still grieving four years later in this AU. Was still grieving a decade later in canon.
And that makes Summer vulnerable.

Fey can't give or take anything without balance. If Titania wanted to take Lily's guard against being changed then she'd owe her for it. I'd argue it should be enough to compel her not to force the issue herself.

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Maybe.
If she considered it part of her job, she would still pay it though. We dont know what price, if any, Mab paid for the athame that Nfected Lea(we see her carrying it in Dead Beat), or if taking it away was simply part of the job.

Something else worth noting is that I doubt an ex-Summer Lady would suddenly be less of a target.
Being the wielder of that much power, and privy to that many secrets, is always going to leave marks on a person.
Make them valuable to all sorts of factions.

A lot of people would suddenly want to get their hands on her, and Summer would not be obliged to offer any protection.
Might even be incentivized to...snip off the loose end.

Usum is not really wrong either. Considering Lily´s canon fate.

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Lily's canon fate had nothing to do with this. She was deceived and made herself vulnerable as a consequence.
Thats not really something the job did.
Titania being so hard to talk to might have had a hand in her isolation, but its worth remembering that she had Fix, and always has.

 

[Yzarc]

[X] Yog

 

[Vanguard_D]

[x] Seriously consider Usum's idea, once you are at the Last Station summon Mab to ask her advice on how workable it would be and if aid with this would fall under the terms of Winter's debt to you

 

[DragonParadox]

Isn't that immunity to mind alteration? She would still be possessed, but protected from mind altering effects of the Mantle:

We want this effect. It might still allow her to be possessed by Nemesis, but it would protect her from supernatural mind alteration.

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Hmm... given that it is dreams specifically, I had forgotten that, that would do it against fey magic yes. There are world-building reasons.

 

[Yog]

Actually thinking about it some more 'Immunity to possession and mind' control would cover what Lilly needs, it would not be perfect because she is already possessed by something the item cannot remove, but she is not after perfect, just 'good enough not to lose myself'. So yeah you start at two dots for just doing the job though as @Alratan says above you may need to add things in.

Or you could even try talking to Titania, that is up to you guys.

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Hmm... given that it is dreams specifically, I had forgotten that, that would do it against fey magic yes. There are world-building reasons.

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We don't immediately need immunity to possession, only mind twisting. Immunity to possession, which would protect from Nemesis, is a separate effect, or an advanced version of this splendor, if we are allowed to buy tow sacred protections separately for two types of perfect defenses. Or we settle for non-perfect protections against possession and mind control, as you said, that should be enough for her. And later upgrade it by reducing the difficulty of the willpower roll by 2 and extending duration of effect. At 3 dots that's a DC 5 roll, which should be doable.

Actually, we could discuss it with her, which she wants more - a perfect defense against mind alteration, or a non-perfect defense against both possession and mind alteration. Surety against one thing, or a strong fighting chance against many things.

I'll add this to the vote.

 

[BoredMan]

It is right to fear change and loss, it is right to hold on to the parts of yourself that are important to you, but that change and alienation to yourself is natural regardless. Just more extreme in this moment, under this mantle, than it otherwise might be. We suffer the same as we try to ensure that 'Molly' is not irreconcilable with whatever we are becoming.

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Dude what are you even saying?

Its not natural its mental change enforced by a magic sentient possibly sapient entity, the Mantle.

 

[Goldfish]

Not sure how I actually want this one to go yet, but I might be incommunicado for most of the day so I'm gonna go ahead and vote.

[X] Yog

 

[uju32]

We don't immediately need immunity to possession, only mind twisting.

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We dont need immunity even. Mab in this AU made the Mantle bend.
And in canon, both Molly and Dresden have maintained a measure of equilibrium while carrying the Winter Lady and Winter Knight Mantles respectively.

Its not an absolute effect. The issues that Lily appears to be having appear to be in part mother-in-law problems.

Dude what are you even saying?
Its not natural its mental change enforced by a magic sentient possibly sapient entity, the Mantle.

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Lily's career at this point is roughly four years in.
Molly had been at the job for two years with fewer issues because Mab, while with her own opinions, wasnt pushing to turn her into her lost daughter.

I am getting the feeling that part of the problem is that Lily got no training beforehand, and the other part is Titania unconsciously piling pressure to conform to an unnecessary ideal.
A little similar to Molly's problems with Charity, actually. Only Lily cant just move out.

Remember? The Mantle can pressure you.
Hoever there are hard limits to how much it can do, and how far it can go.
Else Maeve would have been a much more diligent Winter Lady.

 

[Modus_Tollens]

Dude what are you even saying?

Its not natural its mental change enforced by a magic sentient possibly sapient entity, the Mantle.

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Mostly that we're trying to counter the worst of the effects, giving some anchor to hold to, rather than specifically locking down the intimacies or completely blocking other effects. Nor should we consider the change universally bad since some of what the mantle is giving her is going to be things she genuinely needs to function. Some of that should be there even if that means some elements of the woman might change. In that respect its kind of like how someone loses some of themselves growing up, going from child to functional adult, just a little more extreme.

That also doesn't mean its universally good, there being some things it would really... really like to keep through all of this. I'm not saying there aren't, there are. Only that if given the choice to completely nix all changes with a simple push of a button, with no further consequences, I still wouldn't press that button.

Some of this is stuff that needs to be dealt with and come to terms with rather than just magicking it away.

 

[Artemis1992]

[x] Seriously consider Usum's idea, once you are at the Last Station summon Mab to ask her advice on how workable it would be and if aid with this would fall under the terms of Winter's debt to you

Break shit.
For fun.

 

[DragonParadox]

Remember? The Mantle can pressure you.
Hoever there are hard limits to how much it can do, and how far it can go.
Else Maeve would have been a much more diligent Winter Lady.

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It should be noted here that the Mantles are things of impulse and emotion (we see it with Dresden) not reason and higher thought, that is what the bearer is for. As long as Maeve acts out the nature of Winter her mantle is not going to ask much more of her.

 

[BronzeTongue]

We don't immediately need immunity to possession, only mind twisting. Immunity to possession, which would protect from Nemesis, is a separate effect, or an advanced version of this splendor, if we are allowed to buy tow sacred protections separately for two types of perfect defenses

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Making a 2 dot isn't that much more expensive than a 1 dot. It's actually in the same price category and technically by RaW costs the same, but that's probably just poor phrasing.

Adding possession immunity sounds like a good way to force Titania's hand without actually forcing it.

Anti-possession is an unambiguous improvement to the condition of a fey queen in regards to their core anti-outsider purpose. It's also a protection against the specific thing that ultimately got aurora killed. If the same thing happened to also provide mental defenses without itself being a threat to that purpose then how would Titania justify, to herself and to the rules she has to live by, ordering Lily to abandon it?

We dont need immunity even. Mab in this AU made the Mantle bend.
And in canon, both Molly and Dresden have maintained a measure of equilibrium while carrying the Winter Lady and Winter Knight Mantles respectively.

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Mab did it before installing the mantle, while Molly and Dresden were superhumanly stubborn wizards.

Lily is trying and failing to pull a canon!Molly already, telling her it's technically possible to do what she's doing isn't going to solve the problem.

Edit:

As an aside; by RaW sacred protection applies to all of the form elements a splendor has. We don't need to re-buy the 3 point element, just an additional 1 point form.

 

[Modus_Tollens]

It should be noted here that the Mantles are things of impulse and emotion (we see it with Dresden) not reason and higher thought, that is what the bearer is for. As long as Maeve acts out the nature of Winter her mantle is not going to ask much more of her.

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Mental judo should be fairly effective then: If you can rephrase how the elements of yourself that you most care about are part and parcel with Summer then it would be less erosive to them, perhaps even being reinforcing. It might still have an effect on intimacies over the course of centuries but so would just living that long.

It might be easier said than done but that doesn't make it unworkable either.

 

[BoredMan]

In that respect its kind of like how someone loses some of themselves growing up, going from child to functional adult, just a little more extreme.

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I don't think thats comparable at all since one is the result of life experience amassed over time and the other is literally mind affecting magic to better shape someone for a predetermined role.

Still I think I get what your saying now even if I don't agree with that comparison at all.

Some of this is stuff that needs to be dealt with and come to terms with rather than just magicking it away

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If she has to keep the Mantle and we aren't removing it then yes.

 

[fictionfan]

[x] Seriously consider Usum's idea, once you are at the Last Station summon Mab to ask her advice on how workable it would be and if aid with this would fall under the terms of Winter's debt to you

 

[BronzeTongue]

Mental judo should be fairly effective then: If you can rephrase how the elements of yourself that you most care about are part and parcel with Summer then it would be less erosive to them, perhaps even being reinforcing. It might still have an effect on intimacies over the course of centuries but so would just living that long.

It might be easier said than done but that doesn't make it unworkable either.

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It's worth noting that "just" being pressure doesn't mean it's exactly light. Dresden is an incredibly stubborn guy with a job that makes him a mentally well prepared as a person can be for this sort of thing and he still struggled constantly to maintain the balance with a lesser mantle.

The fey queen mantles change your species to start, and have a lot more stuff going on in general. Acting like mental judo is enough to avoid losing yourself is kind of vastly oversimplifying the problem.

If she has to keep the Mantle and we aren't removing it then yes.

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Removing it should be a last resort if we are even willing to do it at all. That's the sort of thing with consequences, even if we insulate ourselves with a favor.

Pushing Summer and Winter to be even less cooperative than they usually are while they're also facing the endgame of a serious outsider plot is itself a pretty bad outcome.

 

[BronzeTongue]

[X] Start looking into potential splendors to help Lily, and the politics involved in trying to give it to her.

We should help, but we don't need to start blowing things up just because that's the most obvious way forward.

 

[Artemis1992]

We could be honest with her.

Tell her we can remove the Mantle without magical problems, if she can think of a way to migate the mundane consequences.
She has been the Lady for a while now, she should know the game and her Court well enough to have some ideas on keeping Titania's wrath off people.

 

[BoredMan]

Removing it should be a last resort if we are even willing to do it at all. That's the sort of thing with consequences, even if we insulate ourselves with a favor.

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I agree I just want people to not act like it isn't even an option because it is.

We could be honest with her.

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Lol. Lmao even.

 

[DragonParadox]

We could be honest with her.

Tell her we can remove the Mantle without magical problems, if she can think of a way to migate the mundane consequences.
She has been the Lady for a while now, she should know the game and her Court well enough to have some ideas on keeping Titania's wrath off people.

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Might work, on the other hand as Molly has seen Lilly's subterfuge is not what it could be and that is about more than keeping secrets off your face.

 

[Yzarc]

It should be noted here that the Mantles are things of impulse and emotion (we see it with Dresden) not reason and higher thought, that is what the bearer is for. As long as Maeve acts out the nature of Winter her mantle is not going to ask much more of her.

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Ummm.....that sounds suspiciously like a Po soul to me.

Does that mean, anything that quells the Mantle's imposed urges also works on a Po soul?

 

[Silvereagle21]

[X] Start looking into potential splendors to help Lily, and the politics involved in trying to give it to her.

 

[DragonParadox]

Ummm.....that sounds suspiciously like a Po soul to me.

Does that mean, anything that quells the Mantle's imposed urges also works on a Po soul?

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Sadly it's not that easy. The Po Soul, even the awakened Po of the Wan Kuei is still on a basic level a part of the individual, it is not UMI as it is neither unnatural nor magical. A Faerie Mantle is like having a second Po soul with a whole second set of impulses that slowly seep into the bearer.... or at least that is what it is like to the Knight, the souls of the Fey are a subject Molly would have to study to be sure how they work.

 

[Yog]

We dont need immunity even. Mab in this AU made the Mantle bend.
And in canon, both Molly and Dresden have maintained a measure of equilibrium while carrying the Winter Lady and Winter Knight Mantles respectively.

Its not an absolute effect. The issues that Lily appears to be having appear to be in part mother-in-law problems.

Click to shrink...

Making a 2 dot isn't that much more expensive than a 1 dot. It's actually in the same price category and technically by RaW costs the same, but that's probably just poor phrasing.

Adding possession immunity sounds like a good way to force Titania's hand without actually forcing it.

Anti-possession is an unambiguous improvement to the condition of a fey queen in regards to their core anti-outsider purpose. It's also a protection against the specific thing that ultimately got aurora killed. If the same thing happened to also provide mental defenses without itself being a threat to that purpose then how would Titania justify, to herself and to the rules she has to live by, ordering Lily to abandon it?

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Should I just switch to a twofold non-perfect protection variant? I don't really mind, and it does allow for easy explanation to Titania (anyone up to making a stunt, by the way)?

 

[uju32]

It should be noted here that the Mantles are things of impulse and emotion (we see it with Dresden) not reason and higher thought, that is what the bearer is for. As long as Maeve acts out the nature of Winter her mantle is not going to ask much more of her.

Click to shrink...

Worth recalling that Nfected! Summer Lady Aurora's plan in Summer Knight was to permanently depower Summer by transferring a chunk of Summer's power to Winter; first, by trying to transfer the Summer Knight's power to Winter, and then when that was sabotaged, to dump the Summer Lady's power.

The Mantle did not consider that something to intervene in.

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Anti-possession is an unambiguous improvement to the condition of a fey queen in regards to their core anti-outsider purpose. It's also a protection against the specific thing that ultimately got aurora killed. If the same thing happened to also provide mental defenses without itself being a threat to that purpose then how would Titania justify, to herself and to the rules she has to live by, ordering Lily to abandon it?

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That it might provide a vector for Molly to affect the Summer Lady in the future.

We arent Fae.
We are allowed to lie. If Mab knows enough about the Infernal Exalted to think she could tempt us with knowledge, there's a good chance that Titania does as well.

We actually need to address the Titania problem directly, and thats likely to be a social project.

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Mab did it before installing the mantle, while Molly and Dresden were superhumanly stubborn wizards.
Lily is trying and failing to pull a canon!Molly already, telling her it's technically possible to do what she's doing isn't going to solve the problem.

Edit:
As an aside; by RaW sacred protection applies to all of the form elements a splendor has. We don't need to re-buy the 3 point element, just an additional 1 point form.

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Mab did it as she assumed the Mantle of Mother/Queen. She was already Winter Lady at the time, iirc, and managed that just fine.

Like I said, Molly had training before she assumed the Mantle; six or so years with Dresden to become a wizard, a year plus with the Leanansidhe while on the street as both a vigilante and deniable Winter operative.
And she knows her rights, enough to do shit like assert her prerogatives to get Mab to back off:

Spoiler: The Good People microfiction

I hadn't had time, tonight, to talk to my parents, thank goodness. Just Harry. That was easier. Harry understood about the faerie mantles. He was like I was now: a wolf, a predator. He lived with that same edge, the same hunger. It was what made us dangerous.

When I spent time with my parents, my brothers and sisters, I… remembered things. Floods of memories that were attached to the emotions I felt when around my family. Memories of the person I used to be—and how I wasn't really her any longer.

A cold, smooth voice came from the darkness in a patch of shadows papa's tasteful lighting scheme had missed. "The person you used to be is what holds you back."

Queen Mab stepped out of the darkness and faced me. She was wearing thick white fur robes. Her hair was a silver cloud around her, sparkling with crystals of frost. Her eyes were a pale, icy blue that was nearly white.

"Very eighties," I said. "Did you use hairspray?"

Mab's tone turned a little colder. "I summoned wind and ice."

"Oh," I said. "Sweet. I'll have to remember."

Mab glowered at me and then at my family's home. "This is what keeps you from being truly ready."

"Ready for what?" I chirped.

She gave me an icy look and shook her head. "Let the mortal die. She will not be of use to you."

I looked at my bare wrist. "Is there some reason you're spending time here?"

"This mission of yours is foolish."

I whirled on Mab and willed the snow beneath my feet to bear me, and suddenly I was eye to eye with her, my nose literally a quarter inch from hers.

"I am the Winter Lady," I said, and I spoke in the voice of Winter as I did. Crystals of ice formed on every surface for ten feet in every direction. "You chose me for the mantle. And now the mantle is mine."

Mab stared at me. And something happened I would never have expected.
She bowed her head and withdrew half a step. "It is your right," she said, the words sharp with frozen, reluctant edges. Her lip twisted in disdain. "But this smacks of… Summer work."

"How can it?" I demanded of her. I felt a laugh bubbling up from my belly and let it dance in my words. "This is Christmas, Auntie Mab." Mab's eyes widened. I leaned over and kissed her on the frozen cheek, beamed at her, and said, "Merry Christmas!"
Mab stared, blankly astonished.

Lily is learning on the job and has only Fix as her brother/trusted inner circle; of her old friends, Meryl died for her, and Ace betrayed her. The former Summer Lady's entourage were the guys who tried to have her killed after all. If anyone survived of them, its not like she could simply take them to fill her entourage. Any more than Molly took Maeve's entourage to fill hers.