Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

Wizards have to swear by their power to face that sort of consequence. Guest right being broken is more of a political thing than anything else.

Since this is an internal matter for the court and occurring at a formal event rather than at a personal event of Lara's there's some wiggle room to work with.

Still risky though.
ehh I mean given accepting guest rights or giving them is kinda required for them to matter at all thats kind of a moot point. Otherwise someone could just you know attack you if your in their home or vice versa. Also there's a reason non wizards don't break it either. Other than you know fae who literally have to follow guest rights if they accept or give them out. Don't even have to specify guest rights when your fae just inviting someone to somewhere your hosting means you've given them guest rights.
 
You can't normally break guest rights though it has actual consequences. You can play word games though. Its not even just a fae thing.

Edit: We've never seen it before but we know a wizard could face actual magical consequences for breaking guest rights for example.

He is not going to break guest right, he is going to order them by their oaths to them to go into custody. If they then start a fight they broke the peace. That is why Lara trotted out her father for this.
 
ehh I mean given accepting guest rights or giving them is kinda required for them to matter at all thats kind of a moot point. Otherwise someone could just you know attack you if your in their home or vice versa. Also there's a reason non wizards don't break it either. Other than you know fae who literally have to follow guest rights if they accept or give them out. Don't even have to specify guest rights when your fae just inviting someone to somewhere your hosting means you've given them guest rights.
You misunderstand; swearing by their power has to be explicit. Just promising doesn't do anything. That's why people who want to really be sure make them swear by it directly.
 
He is not going to break guest right, he is going to order them by their oaths to them to go into custody. If they then start a fight they broke the peace. That is why Lara trotted out her father for this.

I don't think it matters. The point of guest right isn't the technicalities, it's that it gives people the confidence to place themselves in someone else's power, where they're vulnerable to exactly this happening. Without the guarantee they won't be ambushed like this, they can't take the risk. After all, if the people we're going to kill today hadn't accepted the invitation, people will think they'd have a chance of surviving.

No one will ever show up to anything hosted by the Raiths ever again, including the rest of the White Court. Indeed, I'd argue this should end the White Court as an institution. It shows the Raiths are too untrustworthy.
 
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You misunderstand; swearing by their power has to be explicit. Just promising doesn't do anything. That's why people who want to really be sure make them swear by it directly.
Eh just inviting someone in gives guest rights as far as I know or you can at least trick someone who offers invitation into being complicit with the laws of hospitality dresden did it once with a fae with word games.
 
I don't think it matters. The point of guest right isn't the technicalities, it's that it gives people the confidence to place themselves in someone else's power, where they're vulnerable to exactly this happening. Without the guarantee they won't be ambushed like this, they can't take the risk. After all, if the people we're going to kill today hadn't accepted the invitation, people will think they'd have a chance of surviving.

No one will ever show up to anything hosted by the Raiths ever again, including the rest of the White Court. Indeed, I'd argue this should end the White Court as an institution. It shows the Raiths are too untrustworthy.
dp already said they aren't breaking guest rights. Technicalities matter. I am disagreeing on what bronze said on some things though.
Also fairly sure people in the white court don't come to these events without guarantee of guest rights. Especially the social focused white court.
 
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dp already said they aren't breaking guest rights. Technicalities matter. I am disagreeing on what bronze said on some things though.

That doesn't matter though. The fact that the Raiths found a loop hole in the technicalities of guest right rules to murder their last set of guests means that no one else will ever visit because they can't be confident that the Raiths won't find a loophole they can use as an excuse to ambush them.

Things like guest right don't exist as arbitrary rules you can try to rules lawyer. They exist as pragmatic principles that makes it possible to take the risk of putting yourself under someone else's power. Once you've shown you don't care about that principle, no one can trust you because no set of rules are complete and foolproof. It's simply too risky to trust that this time they won't be ambushing you.
 
I don't think it matters. The point of guest right isn't the technicalities, it's that it gives people the confidence to place themselves in someone else's power, where they're vulnerable to exactly this happening. Without the guarantee they won't be ambushed like this, they can't take the risk. After all, if the people we're going to kill today hadn't accepted the invitation, people will think they'd have a chance of surviving.

No one will ever show up to anything hosted by the Raiths ever again, including the rest of the White Court. Indeed, I'd argue this should end the White Court as an institution. It shows the Raiths are too untrustworthy.
I wouldn't go that far. She does something very close to this in canon and the white court is fine.

The oaths do matter because the white king has the right to demand they surrender themselves for judgment, which supersedes more general rights. He technically isn't attacking, they're entering open rebellion by refusing to comply.

These sorts of technicalities matter to supernaturals.

Now if they tried this with people who weren't members of the court they would be in deep shit.
Eh just inviting someone in gives guest rights as far as I know or you can at least trick someone who offers invitation into being complicit with the laws of hospitality dresden did it once with a fae with word games.
My point is not that guest right isn't assigned, but that it has no magical backing. It's all social and political.

Edit: autocorrect error
 
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I wouldn't go that far. She does something very close to this in canon and the white court is fine.

The oaths do matter because the white king has the right to demand they surrender themselves for judgment, which supersedes more general rights. He technically isn't attacking, they're entering one rebellion by refusing to comply.

These sorts of technicalities matter to supernaturals.

Now if they tried this with people who weren't members of the court they would be in deep shit.

My point is not that guest right isn't assigned, but that it has no magical backing. It's all social and political.
eh it does for fae and wizards. if they you know actually accept or give it. Dresden has said before he'd be harmed if he actually broke it. Though that might not be guest right and might just be making oaths in general. Never actually seen cause he doesn't break oaths though hes monologued a couple times a normal person might get a headache if they break an oath and a wizard might get actually injured before though.
 
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Yes, you had Hellscry on all scene
Okay, so we have that confirmed.
She is planning to offer to take them into custody, it is just that she does not expect anyone to take the deal since the punishment for the crime they have committed is death. It has to be public because she is removing so many people, doing it in private would make her look both weak and treacherous.

This way the White King in his function as judge is going to call out the accused... at which point we are going to have that fight
This is still skirting unusually close to the line that allows the White Court to operate as a court, even with their byzantine, backstabby politics. People showing up unarmed and unprotected to the Raith estates in the confidence that they'll walk out again, and that their hosts will protect them is kind of a prereq for this kind of meeting.

Even if they arent technically breaking guest right, it comes close enough that you are definitely looking at an internal disorder malus. Which, once again, raises the question of what the everloving fuck that Lara turned up that is making her risk this.

It cant be their breaking the treaty with Molly; that would be cleanly resolved by having Molly call them out publicly and stab them to death, like what Dresden did in White Night. Its certainly not trafficking with Outsider shit either, which like I've said, isnt illegal by White Court rules if they are still officially allied to the Red Court, and can probably be dealt with by other means.

Like fingering them to Winter or Summer or the ErlKing.
 
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I don't think it matters. The point of guest right isn't the technicalities, it's that it gives people the confidence to place themselves in someone else's power, where they're vulnerable to exactly this happening. Without the guarantee they won't be ambushed like this, they can't take the risk. After all, if the people we're going to kill today hadn't accepted the invitation, people will think they'd have a chance of surviving.

No one will ever show up to anything hosted by the Raiths ever again, including the rest of the White Court. Indeed, I'd argue this should end the White Court as an institution. It shows the Raiths are too untrustworthy.

Prior oaths are not a technicality, they exist at the same level as guest right or else a king would not have the ability to use force in his own home surrounded by his own people under his own laws.

Guest right is for... well guests which your own people are not.
 
Prior oaths are not a technicality, they exist at the same level as guest right or else a king would not have the ability to use force in his own home surrounded by his own people under his own laws.

Guest right is for... well guests which your own people are not.
Do you mean raith in this king metaphor? Cause like a normal king usually isn't magical in nature and likely to suffer the consequences of it.

Also eh fairly sure that mab can offer guest rights to winter fae.
 
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I wouldn't go that far. She does something very close to this in canon and the white court is fine.

The oaths do matter because the white king has the right to demand they surrender themselves for judgment, which supersedes more general rights. He technically isn't attacking, they're entering one rebellion by refusing to comply.

These sorts of technicalities matter to supernaturals.

Now if they tried this with people who weren't members of the court they would be in deep shit.

My point is not that guest right isn't assigned, but that it has no magical backing. It's all social and political.

It's still a loophole.

The general principle is that you can only take the risk of visiting someone and making yourself vulnerable to them if there's an iron cast guarantee they won't exploit that and attack you.

Here, exactly that happened. The visitors made themselves vulnerable and died for it. Why would anyone ever be so stupid as to ever take that risk with the Raiths again?

The text of the rules are irrelevant. It's the principle about covering the vulnerability that a visitor has when in someone else's place of power that matters.

After this, why would a surviving White Court vampire ever risk visiting the Raiths again. They were given a choice of imprisonment by the White King, which is arguably a fate worse than death, or death.
 
eh it does for fae and wizards. if they you know actually accept or give it. Dresden has said before he'd be harmed if he actually broke it. Though that might not be guest right and might just be making oaths in general. Never actually seen cause he doesn't break oaths though hes monologued a couple times a normal person might get a headache if they break an oath and a wizard might get actually injured before though.
No it doesn't. Fey can't break their word, so by extension it applies to all their promises, but wizards must put their power up for collateral by directly saying something to the effect of " I swear by my power" to apply that effect. It isn't automatic for anything, even guest right.
 
Okay, so we have that confirmed.

This is still skirting unusually close to the line that allows the White Court to operate as a court, even with their byzantine, backstabby politics. People showing up unarmed and unprotected to the Raith estates in the confidence that they'll walk out again, and that their hosts will protect them is kind of a prereq for this kind of meeting.

Even if they arent technically breaking guest right, it comes close enough that you are definitely looking at an internal disorder malus. Which, once again, raises the question of what the everloving fuck that Lara turned up that is making her risk this.

It cant be their breaking the treaty with Molly; that would be cleanly resolved by having Molly call them out publicly and stab them to death, like what Dresden did in White Night. Its certainly not trafficking with Outsider shit either, which like I've said, isnt illegal by White Court rules if they are still officially allied to the Red Court, and can probably be dealt with by other means.

Like fingering them to Winter.

The difference is that Dresden was the representative of a peer power, Molly is not so she can avail herself to the power of the 'White King' to see that the conspirators are questioned and punished for their transgressions. Since everyone with a working brain that hears 'magic user cull' will know that the more serious problem is potential war with the White Council they are unlikely to go quietly.

By contrast vanishing people of your own faction, especially powerful House elders and then announcing that you found them such and such guilty looks like an excuse to kill them.

This way they will stand condemned by their own actions in attempting to resist.
 
You realize these people have done what amount to declaring war on the White counsel right. That is more then enough reason to kill them no questioning needed.
 
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I wouldn't go that far. She does something very close to this in canon and the white court is fine.
The oaths do matter because the white king has the right to demand they surrender themselves for judgment, which supersedes more general rights. He technically isn't attacking, they're entering one rebellion by refusing to comply.

These sorts of technicalities matter to supernaturals.
Now if they tried this with people who weren't members of the court they would be in deep shit.
Of relevance, this is what happened in canon:
White Night chapter 36 said:
A male voice, flat and a little nasal, spoke up, and I recognized Grey Cloak's accent at once. "My lord, the deaths inflicted upon the freakishly blooded kine indeed happened as Lord Skavis describes. But in fact, it was no agent of his House who accomplished this deed. If, as he claims, his son accomplished it, then where is he? Why has he not come forward to bear testimony in person?"
The words fell on what I could only describe as a glowering silence. If Lord Skavis was anything like the rest of the Whites I'd met, Vittorio needed to bury him fast, or spend the rest of his life looking over his shoulder.
"Then who did accomplish this fell act of warfare?" Raith asked, his tone mild.
Vittorio spoke again, and I could just imagine the way his chest must have puffed out. "I did, my King, with the assistance of Madrigal of the House of Raith."
Raith's voice gained an edge of anger. "This, despite the fact that a cessation of hostilities has been declared, pending the discussion of an armistice."
"What is done is done, my King," Lady Malvora interjected. "My dear friend Lord Skavis was correct in this fact: The freaks are weak. Now is the time to finish them—now and forever. Not to allow them time to regain their feet."
"Despite the fact that the White King thinks otherwise?"
I could hear Lady Malvora's smile. "Many things change, O King."
There was a booming sound, maybe a fist slamming down onto the arm of a throne. "This does not. You have violated my commands and undermined my policies. That is treason, Cesarina."
"Is it, O King?" Lady Malvora shot back. "Or is it treason to our very blood to show mercy to an enemy who is upon the brink of defeat?"

"I would be willing to forgive excessive zeal, Cesarina," Raith snarled. "I am less inclined to tolerate the stupidity behind this mindless provocation."
Cold, mocking laughter fell on a sudden, dead silence. "Stupidity? In what way, O weak and aged King? In what way are the deaths of the kine anything but sweetness to the senses, balm to the Hunger?" The quality of her voice changed, as if she changed her facing in the cavern. I could imagine her turning to address the audience, scorn ringing in her tone. "We are strong, and the strong do as they wish. Who shall call us to task for it, O King? You?"

If that wasn't a straight line, my name isn't Harry Blackstone Copperfield Dresden.
I lifted my staff and slammed it down on the floor, forcing an effort of will through it to focus the energy of the blow into a far smaller area than the end of the staff. It struck the stone floor, shattering a chunk the size of a big dinner platter with a detonation almost indistinguishable from thunder. Another effort of will sent a rolling wave of silent fire, no more than five or six inches high, down the tunnel floor, in a red carpet of my very own.
I strode down it, Ramirez beside me, the fire rolling back away from our feet as we went, boots striking the stone together. We entered the cavern and found it packed with pale and startled beings, the entire place a wash of beautiful faces and gorgeous wardrobes—except for twenty feet around the entrance, where everyone had hurried away from the blazing herald of our presence.
I ignored everything, scanning the room until I found Grey Cloak, aka Vittorio Malvora, standing next to Madrigal Raith not thirty feet away. The murdering bastards were staring at us, mouths open in shock.
"Vittorio Malvora!" I called, my voice ringing with wrath in the echoing cavern. "Madrigal Raith! I am Harry Dresden, Warden of the White Council of Wizards. Under the Unseelie Accords, I accuse you of murder in a time of peace, and challenge you, here and now, before these witnesses, to trial by combat." I slammed my staff down again in another shock of thunder, and Hellfire flooded the runes of the staff. "To the death."
Utter silence fell on the Deeps.
Damn, there ain't nothing like a good entrance.
 
Prior oaths are not a technicality, they exist at the same level as guest right or else a king would not have the ability to use force in his own home surrounded by his own people under his own laws.

Guest right is for... well guests which your own people are not.

Yes. Historical kings didn't have that power; and the equivalents of guest right most certainly applied to their own vassals. If a King invited his Barons to a religious celebration and then ordered them to submit to imprisonment or be killed, it would be seen as a horrendous betrayal and would probably end with that King's head on a pike and his name reviled down the ages.

Even if a King pulled it off, it would represent a transition to absolutism, as he'd have to kill or break all the rest of the Barons who would correctly recognise that this was an unacceptable precedent.

Either way; it would result in immediate civil war.
 
It's still a loophole.

The general principle is that you can only take the risk of visiting someone and making yourself vulnerable to them if there's an iron cast guarantee they won't exploit that and attack you.

Here, exactly that happened. The visitors made themselves vulnerable and died for it. Why would anyone ever be so stupid as to ever take that risk with the Raiths again?

The text of the rules are irrelevant. It's the principle about covering the vulnerability that a visitor has when in someone else's place of power that matters.

After this, why would a surviving White Court vampire ever risk visiting the Raiths again. They were given a choice of imprisonment by the White King, which is arguably a fate worse than death, or death.

In isolation no reason at all. If Lara was doing this on a whim or just to remove rivals that would be one thing and it might well the end of her power, but it is not. She is using this as leverage to prevent a war with the White Council that other people who have been warned this is coming do not want. Right now you have loyalists and the enemies of her enemies in the know and sharpening their knives, the neutrals who are (hopefully) going to be persuaded and intimidated... and the people who are not leaving this place alive if she has anything to say on the matter. The need for a large and intimidating beatstick is why she brought in exalts. If she did not have the option she might have done things differently.
 
No it doesn't. Fey can't break their word, so by extension it applies to all their promises, but wizards must put their power up for collateral by directly saying something to the effect of " I swear by my power" to apply that effect. It isn't automatic for anything, even guest right.
I'm almost definitely sure that dresden has said breaking oaths in general can harm wizards and went into a monologue about it.
 
Yes. Historical kings didn't have that power; and the equivalents of guest right most certainly applied to their own vassals. If a King invited his Barons to a religious celebration and then ordered them to submit to imprisonment or be killed, it would be seen as a horrendous betrayal and would probably end with that King's head on a pike and his name reviled down the ages.

Even if a King pulled it off, it would represent a transition to absolutism, as he'd have to kill or break all the rest of the Barons who would correctly recognise that this was an unacceptable precedent.

Either way; it would result in immediate civil war.

Depends on what part of history you are talking about. Molly is not much of a history buff (Academics 1 and all) but the words centralization of power and formalizing royal supremacy come to mind.
 
Yes. Historical kings didn't have that power; and the equivalents of guest right most certainly applied to their own vassals. If a King invited his Barons to a religious celebration and then ordered them to submit to imprisonment or be killed, it would be seen as a horrendous betrayal and would probably end with that King's head on a pike and his name reviled down the ages.

Even if a King pulled it off, it would represent a transition to absolutism, as he'd have to kill or break all the rest of the Barons who would correctly recognise that this was an unacceptable precedent.

Either way; it would result in immediate civil war.
First off guest rights are for peer powers Kings only respected them because kings where weak for the most part. A baron could easily have as large an army or even greater then a king for a lot of history. Once we started hitting the Renaissance and greater centralization of power started Kings rapidly did largely become the final say on the matter.
 
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In isolation no reason at all. If Lara was doing this on a whim or just to remove rivals that would be one thing and it might well the end of her power, but it is not. She is using this as leverage to prevent a war with the White Council that other people who have been warned this is coming do not want. Right now you have loyalists and the enemies of her enemies in the know and sharpening their knives, the neutrals who are (hopefully) going to be persuaded and intimidated... and the people who are not leaving this place alive if she has anything to say on the matter. The need for a large and intimidating beatstick is why she brought in exalts. If she did not have the option she might have done things differently.

She's saying she's doing it to prevent war with the White Council. She has not evidence whatsoever beyond our word that we're aware of.

And given that Molly is here and radiating the aura of an archdevil, I think the conspirators are very unlikely to perceive weakness as they did in canon and boast about it as they did in canon. I don't think they're that stupid to do that after what Lydia just pulled off and with us having DPE radiating oppression. Even if one of them admits it, that's hardly proof, as they could have been mind controlled to force them to confess in advance to incriminate the others.

And to the honest, the reason doesn't matter. A ruler can always find or manufacture an excuse to murder a vassal who is too successful. This just means that no vassal can ever dare come to the Raith estate ever again, for fear of the same thing being pulled on them.

If you start from the principle that as White Court vampires the Raiths are lying liars who lie, then it takes on a different complexion.

First off guest rights are for peer powers Kings only respected them because kings where weak for the most part. A baron could easily have as large an army or even greater then a king for a lot of history. Once we started hitting the Renaissance and greater centralization of power started Kings rapidly did largely become the final say on the matter.

Even then a King would deal with it by sending out an arrest warrant and commanding them to appear to be judged, just as they would in earlier times. They wouldn't ambush them at a religious ceremony or social event they were hosting.

That's because they wouldn't need to. They'd be strong enough that they wouldn't need the advantage that betraying their trust would give them.

In earlier times they'd do the commanding to appear deal as that would retain the trust of the rest of the aristocracy that they wouldn't be ambushed.
 
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