Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[uju32]

[X] The Skinwalker and the connection to framing Harry and the White Court connection via the attempt on Sarah Greene's life

If this was true, White Court could never have become a major world player. An angered party of wizards during Rome era would have wiped them out in a busy afternoon.

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1) The fact that the Black Court got essentially broken as a geopolitical power by a lot of motivated mortals and lesser supernaturals who exploited exposed weaknesses does not mean they did not use to be a major power.
Thats a little like saying that if a surprise attack can knock over the White House, then the US is not a world power.

Or, alternatively, see Shagnasty rolling the Raith Estate solo at literally minutes notice in Turn Coat.
And not just the Raith Estate and its defenders, but Dresden and Luccio as well, who were respectively the Warden regional commander for the eastern US, and the Warden Captain-General.


2)Not all power is hard power.


3)Law-abiding Wizards are at particular disadvantage when dealing with Whites because of their requirements to try to avoid killing mortals. A Whampire behind a meat shield of mortal goons is not something the White Council is especially keen to engage if they can avoid it.


4) Estimated world population at the time of Rome's maximum power circa 200 AD was between 200 and 250 million.
Assuming 1 in 100k were wizards, thats a maximum of 2500 wizards worldwide.
You can do the math yourself.

 

[DragonParadox]

Do white court just have access to a whole bunch of discipline powers? Cause they only did like three things in canon burn for power, incite emotion, regen, oh read emotions, anything else is stuff they made deals for, learned over time like rituals, and just general skill. Note those previous things can be applied in multiple ways like general horny aura or specific horny aura. But their usually at least in said categories.

Also stuff like eating too much or too little has risks as in losing control.

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They have access to some mental disciplines, presence is common for instance though that can advance to more complicated mind fucking for the elders, they also have improved physical abilities via potence and the like. Beyond that the really esoteric is either the domain of weirdos who learn how to twist their Hunger into a pretzel like Leinth, or the very talented, they are certainly not as versatile as the average Kindred.

 

[firefrog600]

They have access to some mental disciplines, presence is common for instance though that can advance to more complicated mind fucking for the elders, they also have improved physical abilities via potence and the like. Beyond that the really esoteric is either the domain of weirdos who learn how to twist their Hunger into a pretzel like Leinth, they are certainly not as versatile as the average Kindred.

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That mostly makes sense though honestly kinda weird they can get their hunger to do that at all. The esoteric stuff that is. Now knowledge about rituals and such that's totally doable nicodemus can do it and I don't think he has a lick of wizards talent he's just fuck old and has a fuck ton of knowledge and experience and skill. And a fallen angel in his head. For other stuff I'd assume they'd have made pacts with other beings and such right? Like mister raith certainly did right?

 

[Alratan]

That mostly makes sense though honestly kinda weird they can get their hunger to do that at all. The esoteric stuff that is. Now knowledge about rituals and such that's totally doable nicodemus can do it and I don't think he has a lick of wizards talent he's just fuck old and has a fuck ton of knowledge and experience and skill. And a fallen angel in his head. For other stuff I'd assume they'd have made pacts with other beings and such right? Like mister raith certainly did right?

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I think Jim Butcher said that White Court spellcasters can learn to use their Hunger to power a range of magic. Narrower than a full wizard but presumably a lot more diverse than their inherent powers.

Their truly powerful elders have had a lot of time to hone even a minor talent for magic.

 

[firefrog600]

I think Jim Butcher said that White Court spellcasters can learn to use their Hunger to power a range of magic. Narrower than a full wizard but presumably a lot more diverse than their inherent powers.

Their truly powerful elders have had a lot of time to hone even a minor talent for magic.

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Oh I'm sure they have he's as much said it's also very very rare and plenty of talents likely atrophy. As in most white court are never born with said talent. Given that's not exactly hunger based power though? That's magic with a different fuel? Which isn't exactly what dp wrote with them using what is an esoteric discipline.

There are a few theories there was a hope for Thomas to be something like that.

Edit: as in the amount of talents in the white court is probably counted on one's hand if I had to guess.

 

[DragonParadox]

That mostly makes sense though honestly kinda weird they can get their hunger to do that at all. The esoteric stuff that is. Now knowledge about rituals and such that's totally doable nicodemus can do it and I don't think he has a lick of wizards talent he's just fuck old and has a fuck ton of knowledge and experience and skill. And a fallen angel in his head. For other stuff I'd assume they'd have made pacts with other beings and such right? Like mister raith certainly did right?

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So metaphysics time, I'd make this an informational post but it's going to be pretty short. As vampires go a White Court is... pretty human, so much so than when they change their inherent magic, their hunger, does not entirely devour their human potential for magic, that is why Thomas can cast a tracking spell even though that has nothing to do with lust... it does have something to do with hunting though. That is how White Court Vampires learn unusual magic, they pick at the edges of their core disciplines. Do that long enough or be lucky enough to find just the right paradigm for your cojoining of mortal soul and demonic Hunger and you too can do Weird Stuff TM.

 

[Alratan]

Oh I'm sure they have he's as much said it's also very very rare and plenty of talents likely atrophy. Given that's not exactly hunger based power though? That's magic with a different fuel? Which isn't exactly what dp wrote with them using what is an esoteric discipline.

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How it's modelled behind the scene is pretty secondary, I think.

And while magic talent may be rare in the wider population, White Court vampires may target practitioners to have children with, and in the brutal Darwinism that is the supernatural world, magic is something that a vampire is unlikely to forcibly reject and suppress and so cause to fade away, and is a significant survival advantage meaning those vampires who have it are more likely to survive to be elders.

 

[uju32]

They have access to some mental disciplines, presence is common for instance though that can advance to more complicated mind fucking for the elders, they also have improved physical abilities via potence and the like. Beyond that the really esoteric is either the domain of weirdos who learn how to twist their Hunger into a pretzel like Leinth, or the very talented, they are certainly not as versatile as the average Kindred.

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Huh.
You do get scrubs like the Malvora in Jury Duty who tried to prey on a child and got beaten to death barehanded by a vanilla human thug. A retired human thug, at that.

But you'd think that in a WoD crossover, the higher level of threat would make anyone who wanted to live a long life invest in a lot of skilling up as Court policy.
Fortitute, Presence, Auspex, Celerity, Auspex, Dominate would be basics.

 

[firefrog600]

So metaphysics time, I'd make this an informational post but it's going to be pretty short. As vampires go a White Court is... pretty human, so much so than when they change their inherent magic, their hunger, does not entirely devour their human potential for magic, that is why Thomas can cast a tracking spell even though that has nothing to do with lust... it does have something to do with hunting though. That is how White Court Vampires learn unusual magic, they pick at the edges of their core disciplines. Do that long enough or be lucky enough to find just the right paradigm for your cojoining of mortal soul and demonic Hunger and you too can do Weird Stuff TM.

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Okay but like you know in the entire history of the white court the amount of them who were even minor talents has gotta be low though right? This certainly works better for me though as I thought you were making them actual hunger based disciplines.

 

[firefrog600]

How it's modelled behind the scene is pretty secondary, I think.

And while magic talent may be rare in the wider population, White Court vampires may target practitioners to have children with, and in the brutal Darwinism that is the supernatural world, magic is something that a vampire is unlikely to forcibly reject and suppress and so cause to fade away, and is a significant survival advantage meaning those vampires who have it are more likely to survive to be elders.

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I was more thinking of atrophy due to focus on their base hunger stuff, lack of a magic teacher, and general ignorance. Plus the fact I'm fairly sure there is zero major talents in the white court. Like your not gonna practice magic much if you don't know you even have it since minor talent and already have hunger.

 

[DragonParadox]

Huh.
You do get scrubs like the Malvora in Jury Duty who tried to prey on a child and got beaten to death barehanded by a vanilla human thug. A retired human thug, at that.

But you'd think that in a WoD crossover, the higher level of threat would make anyone who wanted to live a long life invest in a lot of skilling up as Court policy.
Fortitute, Presence, Auspex, Celerity, Auspex, Dominate would be basics.

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All those are indeed reasonably common. Isabela has Austex for instance. Actually let me put up her sheet here so you guys have some idea of what a White Court fledgeling with an occult bent looks like

Name: Isabela Syliga
Alias: None
Generation: 11 [Equivalent for purely mechanical purposes]

Physical: Strength 2, Dexterity 3, Stamina 2
Social: Charisma 3, Manipulation 3, Appearance 4
Mental: Perception 3, Intelligence 3, Wits 4
Talents: Alertness 1, Athletics 1, Empathy 3, Intimidation 2, Leadership 1, Subterfuge 2
Skills: Etiquette 2, Firearms 1, Larceny 1, Melee 1, Performance 2 (Dance), Stealth 1
Knowledges: Academics 2, Finance 2, Investigation 2, Law 1, Occult 3, Politics 2, Science 1
Disciplines: Auspex 1, Presence 1, Celerity 1, Dominate 1

Backgrounds: Generation 2, Mentor 3

Willpower: 6

Blood Pool/Max per Turn: 12/1

 

[DragonParadox]

Okay but like you know in the entire history of the white court the amount of them who were even minor talents has gotta be low though right? This certainly works better for me though as I thought you were making them actual hunger based disciplines.

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Not if they go out of their way to sleep with magicians and we have plenty of indications they do, exhibit one, the White King. Even in Ye Olden days they would be the vampires most able to both find practitioners and seduce them.

 

[firefrog600]

High talent mother plus raith made a minor talent Thomas who didn't really practice said magic much for obvious reasons. No teacher, focused on hunger stuff, not a power maniac. Sleeping with wizards does not guarantee a talent. Two wizards sleeping together does not guarantee a talent.

Also while I'm sure plenty have had children with wizards it can't be a stupid amount of their population and let's not forget it's likely to disappear after two generations or something I doubt minor talents spread it very far and that's what pretty much all the white court count as.

 

[DragonParadox]

High talent mother plus raith made a minor talent Thomas who didn't really practice said magic much for obvious reasons. No teacher, focused on hunger stuff, not a power maniac. Sleeping with wizards does not guarantee a talent. Two wizards sleeping together does not guarantee a talent.

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It does not guarantee a wizard, but you generally do get a higher than human average potential for magic, do it consistently over thousands of years with a predilection for awakening the Hunger in those children who have the most talent and you will eventually get up to a good background level of magical skill. Also it's worth keeping in mind Molly's guess that someone bound the first phage to the first vampire and the blood of their kin evermore, someone very skilled, very lucky or both. The White Court might have access to old sources of lore indeed to augment whatever talents they manage to get.

 

[firefrog600]

It does not guarantee a wizard, but you generally do get a higher than human average potential for magic, do it consistently over thousands of years with a predilection for awakening the Hunger in those children who have the most talent and you will eventually get up to a good background level of magical skill. Also it's worth keeping in mind Molly's guess that someone bound the first phage to the first vampire and the blood of their kin evermore, someone very skilled, very lucky or both. The White Court might have access to old sources of lore indeed to augment whatever talents they manage to get.

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I mean then why didn't they do anything with Thomas there. Also I mean I said they knew rituals. Also eugenics here seems a crapshoot when talent isn't even close to guaranteed across even two generations. Not to mention weirdly they clearly don't have as many children as they could. Since otherwise they'd be a far larger amount of the worlds population based on the amount of time they've been around. Also the fact since they've been around there have been maybe what 12,000 maybe14,000 wizard talents world wide? That's not a lot and even white court is somewhat limited by geography limitations and information.

Edit: also what do you mean may I'm fairly sure raith was around when the ritual or whatever was done?

 

[uju32]

High talent mother plus raith made a minor talent Thomas who didn't really practice said magic much for obvious reasons. No teacher, focused on hunger stuff, not a power maniac. Sleeping with wizards does not guarantee a talent. Two wizards sleeping together does not guarantee a talent.

Also while I'm sure plenty have had children with wizards it can't be a stupid amount of their population and let's not forget it's likely to disappear after two generations or something I doubt minor talents spread it very far and that's what pretty much all the white court count as.

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Thomas is young for a Whampire, and was additionally hampered by trying not to appear a threat to his father for fear of suffering the fate of his elder brothers.
Come back in fifty years.

He's never going to be as strong as his brother, but given that his brother is like one of the top fifty strongest wizards on the Council for sheer grunt, that leaves a lot of room for him to be a scary magic user.
If he's motivated.

 

[Earth-Destroyer]

But you'd think that in a WoD crossover, the higher level of threat would make anyone who wanted to live a long life invest in a lot of skilling up as Court policy.
Fortitute, Presence, Auspex, Celerity, Auspex, Dominate would be basics.

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Even among eldar vampires having more then 1-2, non clan skills is rare. Smiling Jack is one of the toughest of a mid generation vampire, and he does not have that many.

 

[firefrog600]

Thomas is young for a Whampire, and was additionally hampered by trying not to appear a threat to his father for fear of suffering the fate of his elder brothers.
Come back in fifty years.

He's never going to be as strong as his brother, but given that his brother is like one of the top fifty strongest wizards on the Council for sheer grunt, that leaves a lot of room for him to be a scary magic user.
If he's motivated.

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I'm sure but over the course of their creation this would probably be repeated what maybe 30~50 times not everyone's mother is nearly as great a talent as theirs and there historically are only so many wizards much less ability to find said every wizard. Also that's not really a major talent as I said so much as give a minor talent centuries and a bigger pool than most average wizards and you can see some miracles done

 

[uju32]

I'm sure but over the course of their creation this would probably be repeated what maybe 30~50 times not everyone's mother is nearly as great a talent as theirs and there historically are only so many wizards much less ability to find said every wizard.

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There aren't that many wizards.
There's a lot more women who can mother wizards, or who have scion or changeling blood in their ancestry.

 

[DragonParadox]

I mean then why didn't they do anything with Thomas there. Also I mean I said they knew rituals. Also eugenics here seems a crapshoot when talent isn't even close to guaranteed across even two generations. Not to mention weirdly they clearly don't have as many children as they could. Since otherwise they'd be a far larger amount of the worlds population based on the amount of time they've been around. Also the fact since they've been around there have been maybe what 12,000 maybe14,000 wizard talents world wide? That's not a lot and even white court is somewhat limited by geography limitations and information.

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The talent curve for magic comes to a very sharp point so trying to do what the White Court has done with Major Talents breaks down, but minor talents are vastly more common and thus vastly more common to breed true. So what they get, not even for most vampires, just a significant plurality of them is minor talents, what would normally be one trick ponies situationally useful... but the Hunger can be used to feed and empower the native talent into something more impactful. Once in a while someone gets born with what would have been a sorcerer level magical talent, they either come down with a case of dead young or else they go far.

 

[firefrog600]

The talent curve for magic comes to a very sharp point so trying to do what the White Court has done with Major Talents breaks down, but minor talents are vastly more common and thus vastly more common to breed true. So what they get, not even for most vampires, just a significant plurality of them is minor talents, what would normally be one trick ponies situationally useful... but the Hunger can be used to feed and empower the native talent into something more impactful. Once in a while someone gets born with what would have been a sorcerer level magical talent, they either come down with a case of dead young or else they go far.

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Can we even guarantee a minor talent well talent would survive a hunger demon? For all we know Thomas was a wizard talent whose talent was basically made smaller by his hunger eating a lot of it?

 

[DragonParadox]

Can we even guarantee a minor talent well talent would survive a hunger demon? For all we know Thomas was a wizard talent whose talent was basically made smaller by his hunger eating a lot of if?

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I mean you could certainly build a world in which that is the case and it would not go against canon, but that is not the case in this quest. If you have a higher than baseline potential as a human before awakening the hunger you will, with proper training, have an even stronger talent once you can feed lifeforce into it, though again you will be limited by the nature of your magic. Globe trotting vampires like Leinth, not common, the White King, Lara and Thomas again not common each in their own ways.

This is all I can say without spoilers.

 

[firefrog600]

I mean you could certainly build a world in which that is the case and it would not go against canon, but that is not the case in this quest. If you have a higher than baseline potential as a human before awakening the hunger you will, with proper training, have an even stronger talent once you can feed lifeforce into it, though again you will be limited by the nature of your magic. Globe trotting vampires like Leinth, not common, the White King, Lara and Thomas again not common each in their own ways.

This is all I can say without spoilers.

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Hmm works for me though I will say it seems fairly likely the hunger affects the top a talent can reach at birth right? Seeing as far as we know there are zero wizard level talents much less harry level talents in the white court? Just really old people who are very skilled and very knowledgeable right? I'll note age and efficiency and such can equal harry in a lot of ways.

By the way part of the point of this conversation was basically for me to talk about chinks in the system. So glad it could actually be somewhat solved here.

 

[uju32]

Can we even guarantee a minor talent well talent would survive a hunger demon? For all we know Thomas was a wizard talent whose talent was basically made smaller by his hunger eating a lot of it?

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No guarantees. Of anything.
But its explicitly canon that the White Court attempt to seek out talents when they can; besides Dresden's mother, we see the three porn star strega witches that Papa Raith recruited around himself in Blood Rites.

Whites just dont appear to be anywhere as fertile as vanilla humans, so attempts at getting talented women pregnant(or making talented men impregnate female Whampires) run into their own issues.

Hmm works for me though I will say it seems fairly likely the hunger affects the top a talent can reach at birth right? Seeing as far as we know there are zero wizard level talents much less harry level talents in the white court? Just really old people who are very skilled and very knowledgeable right?

By the way part of the point of this conversation was basically for me to talk about chinks in the system. So glad it could actually be somewhat solved here.

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Explicit Word of Jim that White Court wizard-level talents exist, and that Thomas is one.
They just dont match the heights of human wizards.

Just like both the Black Court and Red Court have wizard-level talents.
Just not as many or as skilled or powerful as the White Council does.

 

[fictionfan]

The reds have a bunch of wizards, but they have the advantage of being able to just directly convert existing wizards.