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Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

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BronzeTongue said:
Winter's various powers aren't as relevant to us as insight into how Mab operates is.
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In the long term Mab's history is propably more important.

In the short term knowing what socially-applicable and utility powers Mab has is kinda relevant.
We already had one QM explanation that not activating the UMI-defence before seeing her for the first time would have gotten us crushed in social combat, IIRC.
 
[X] Read the Accords
-[X] Provisions, what is this pact Mab put her power on the line for

[X] Question Bob about...
-[X] The strategies of Winter
-[X] Mab's history
 
[X] Question Bob about...
-[X] Mab's history

If we know our enemy and know ourselves, we will never fear the outcome of our battles.

[X] Read the Accords
-[X] Provisions, what is this pact Mab put her power on the line for

Best to know what exactly the Accords are before making a final decision on whether we should join 'em or not. If we did we'll probably join as a Freeholding Lord, but the biggest pro is probably the ability to challenge any other signatory to a duel; even if Molly is far from being comparable to an entire supernatural faction on her own, she could singlehandedly challenge their heavyweights and kill 'em. But let's actually read the entire Accords first.

[X] Dad has to know something about Winter right? Ask him about how to dealing with them

Michael showed off earlier with Murphy some of what a Mentor 5 can offer. I imagine he can talk both about how to talk with Winter and maybe even explain why the Knights haven't signed the Accords and then challenged the Denarians to single combat (probably the whole "no spirit of the law" thing and Denarians being good at wriggling out of the stuff like that, but best to hear from the source).
 
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Imma say we really shouldn't be thinking about mab as an enemy for just so many reasons. It's just really dumb especially since we straight up aren't going to have a way to replace her with something better in this quest. We cannot replace the winter court especially when we will have limited numbers in our hell and projection of said forces.
 
firefrog600 said:
Imma say we really shouldn't be thinking about mab as an enemy for just so many reasons. It's just really dumb especially since we straight up aren't going to have a way to replace her with something better in this quest. We cannot replace the winter court especially when we will have limited numbers in our hell and projection of said forces.
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The relationship you guys have with Mab is ultimately up to the votes, but two things to keep in mind are the kidnapping to Arctis Tor and the fact that Mab is holding Harry's debts (which he got from getting away from DuMorde) over his head. Rightly or wrongly you are not starting off in a neutral position when it comes to Mab as you are in the case of say Odin.
 
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DragonParadox said:
The relationship you guys have with Mab is ultimately up to the votes, but two things to keep in mind are the kidnapping to Arctis Tor and the fact that Mab is holding Harry's debts (which he got from getting away from DuMorde) over his head. Rightly or wrongly you are not starting off in a neutral potion when it comes to Mab as you are in the case of say Odin.
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Oh I'm fine with hating her murdering her is just a really really really bad idea.
 
firefrog600 said:
Oh I'm fine with hating her murdering her is just a really really really bad idea.
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Unless the Merlin pops up to let us know putting a cap in Mab's head is taking out a critical part of reality's defensive infrastructure, I think executing Mab is just a really really really good idea.

Lest we forget, Mab came within inches of dying in Battleground, but you sure as hell didn't have the Merlin waltzing by to save her ass 'cause it's her ass or the world's. Remember, the only thing that Mab can claim to be doing to protect the world is being the last in a long, long line of guardians.

In Cold Days, Dresden saw the Gates as literal gates in a massive ass wall being defended by Winter against the Outsiders, but we also have word from Mother Summer herself that Mab dying just means Maeve getting control of those forces (only problematic because at that time, Maeve was corrupted by Nemesis and thus the Outsiders).

Literally, Chapter 33 of Cold Days starts with Mother Summer talking about Mab's death and how it's only really bad because Maeve is the one who'll inherit her Mantle. In that same chapter, she shows Harry the Outer Gates for the first time in that context.

Rashid, the Gatekeeper, explicitly tells Harry that Winter is not the only guardian, and will not be the last:
"There are always Outsiders trying to tear their way in. There are always forces in place to stop them. In our age, it is the task of Winter to defend these boundaries, with the help of certain others to support them."

Furthermore, there are even times when the Gates aren't under siege like what was happening in Cold Days. Again, the moment of vulnerability Maeve would've introduced was dangerous only because the Outsiders were pushing hard at that time (definitely a coordinated plan). While the conflict at the Outer Gates is unending, it is not constant. It ebbs and flows, with quiet times and loud times.

So we kill Maeve. Make sure the next Winter Lady is tolerable. Then make her the next Winter Queen by killing Mab. Problems solved!

(This is a long-term plan, but the problems it solves are mainly the problems the Winter Fae make for humanity; that is to say, all the deaths, suffering, child kidnapping, etc.)
 
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[X] Read the Accords
-[X] Provisions, what is this pact Mab put her power on the line for

[X] Question Bob about...
-[X] Mab's history

only voting for two as i am undecided about what our third option should be.
 
DragonParadox said:
Those would be free actions in this context, the preparations t hat actually cost time are talking to people and the like
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Do we vote now, or later for the questions? Also, I hope "ask Lydia to prepare some crown foci using her library" is allowed as a free option. If not, I'll substitute one of Bob's actions.
For now:

[X] Plan hitting the books
-[X] Question Bob about...
-[X] The strategies of Winter
--[X] Mab's history
---[X] Empathy excellency to coach more out of Bob
-[X] Read the Accords
--[X] Provisions, what is this pact Mab put her power on the line for
---[X] Use the Crown on the provisions to ask "what does the fae responsible for these accords thinks she knows about the power currently held by Molly Carpenter?"
----[X] Preload Occult excellency and ATB for better comprehension of the answer
-[X] Ask Lydia to look through her library for books speaking of Mab or otherwise connected to her to use as crown foci. The questions to be asked, from the most important to the least important
--[X] What does Mab want from the meeting with Molly?
--[X] What does Mab plan to entice Molly with?
--[X] What is the single thing, be it a finite service, piece of information or an object, that Mab would pay the most for?
 
Yog said:
Do we vote now, or later for the questions? Also, I hope "ask Lydia to prepare some crown foci using her library" is allowed as a free option. If not, I'll substitute one of Bob's actions.
For now:

[X] Plan hitting the books
-[X] Question Bob about...
-[X] The strategies of Winter
--[X] Mab's history
---[X] Empathy excellency to coach more out of Bob
-[X] Read the Accords
--[X] Provisions, what is this pact Mab put her power on the line for
---[X] Use the Crown on the provisions to ask "what does the fae responsible for these accords thinks she knows about the power currently held by Molly Carpenter?"
----[X] Preload Occult excellency and ATB for better comprehension of the answer
-[X] Ask Lydia to look through her library for books speaking of Mab or otherwise connected to her to use as crown foci. The questions to be asked, from the most important to the least important
--[X] What does Mab want from the meeting with Molly?
--[X] What does Mab plan to entice Molly with?
--[X] What is the single thing, be it a finite service, piece of information or an object, that Mab would pay the most for?
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Later would be more convenient as you would have the foundation of what you find out in the actions, but if you have questions you want to ask now that is also fine. It's going to the next update on all the prep you do then a vote to ask for details (and Crown questions) after witch we finally get to the level up after the chonker that is arc 6.
 
DragonParadox said:
Later would be more convenient as you would have the foundation of what you find out in the actions, but if you have questions you want to ask now that is also fine. It's going to the next update on all the prep you do then a vote to ask for details (and Crown questions) after witch we finally get to the level up after the chonker that is arc 6.
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Ok. What about asking Lydia to look up crown foci? Is that a free action or does it take a slot?

[X] Plan hitting the books
-[X] Question Bob about...
--[X] The strategies of Winter
--[X] Mab's history
-[X] Read the Accords
--[X] Provisions, what is this pact Mab put her power on the line for
---[X] Preload Occult excellency for better comprehension
-[X] Ask Lydia to look through her library for books speaking of Mab or otherwise connected to her to use as crown foci. The questions to be asked, from the most important to the least important
 
TheGrape said:
So we kill Maeve. Make sure the next Winter Lady is tolerable. Then make her the next Winter Queen by killing Mab. Problems solved!
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One issue I immediately see with this plan. It's implied that whoever takes up with the Winter Queen Mantle ends up becoming Mab. Meaning that their character before the Mantle might be irrelevant in the long run. With Maeve it was an issue because of Nemesis but otherwise Mab is Mab.
 
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BoredMan said:
One issue I immediately see with this plan. It's implied that whoever takes up with the Winter Queen Mantle ends up becoming Mab. Meaning that their character before the Mantle might be irrelevant in the long run. With Maeve it was an issue because of Nemesis but otherwise Mab is Mab.
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Fair, but look at it this way:

Mab isn't just dangerous because of her Mantle. She's also dangerous because she's old, experienced, and willing to be an asshole when she wants (which is often).

The new Winter Queen, for all that she may become like Mab in personality (which isn't assured and we won't know will happen until we try it), won't have her experience (because she'll be much younger) or willingness to be an asshole to humanity (because Molly will have proven her capability and willingness to annihilate her, personally, if she displays said willingness).

Part of why we should get rid of Mab is because she's a horrible monster. Another part of it is because the next prospective monster will know her place and won't dare be as horrible.
 
TheGrape said:
Unless the Merlin pops up to let us know putting a cap in Mab's head is taking out a critical part of reality's defensive infrastructure, I think executing Mab is just a really really really good idea.

Lest we forget, Mab came within inches of dying in Battleground, but you sure as hell didn't have the Merlin waltzing by to save her ass 'cause it's her ass or the world's. Remember, the only thing that Mab can claim to be doing to protect the world is being the last in a long, long line of guardians.

In Cold Days, Dresden saw the Gates as literal gates in a massive ass wall being defended by Winter against the Outsiders, but we also have word from Mother Summer herself that Mab dying just means Maeve getting control of those forces (only problematic because at that time, Maeve was corrupted by Nemesis and thus the Outsiders).

Literally, Chapter 33 of Cold Days starts with Mother Summer talking about Mab's death and how it's only really bad because Maeve is the one who'll inherit her Mantle. In that same chapter, she shows Harry the Outer Gates for the first time in that context.

Rashid, the Gatekeeper, explicitly tells Harry that Winter is not the only guardian, and will not be the last:
"There are always Outsiders trying to tear their way in. There are always forces in place to stop them. In our age, it is the task of Winter to defend these boundaries, with the help of certain others to support them."

Furthermore, there are even times when the Gates aren't under siege like what was happening in Cold Days. Again, the moment of vulnerability Maeve would've introduced was dangerous only because the Outsiders were pushing hard at that time (definitely a coordinated plan). While the conflict at the Outer Gates is unending, it is not constant. It ebbs and flows, with quiet times and loud times.

So we kill Maeve. Make sure the next Winter Lady is tolerable. Then make her the next Winter Queen by killing Mab. Problems solved!

(This is a long-term plan, but the problems it solves are mainly the problems the Winter Fae make for humanity; that is to say, all the deaths, suffering, child kidnapping, etc.)
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this this is pretty stupid. For one I said we cannot replace mab, us WE can't what your suggesting doesn't actually change anything long term. The worry is also a much less skilled, intelligent, and emotionally stable version of Mab would be taking over. The mantles make them what they are to a large degree anyone who gets said mantle is gonna eventually end up like them and be far less skilled for a long while. It was not only problematic due to the infection it was also problematic due to Maeve being a spoiled brat and will continue to be one in the transition of becoming the winter queen. The personality changes take time and so does acquiring skill. None of what you suggest changes anything. Not to mention the security risks of assuming we can get a good person in maeves position and then murder fucking Mab and have them replace Mab. They'd be so utterly incompetent at the role my god dude. The transition isn't a 100% stable transfer we could see shit like fucked up weather patterns and natural disasters as far as we know if they die in quick succession.

Also yes we do know they will change due to the mantle over time they won't be exactly the same. I also said WE CANNOT PERSONALLY CHANGE THE SYSTEM. Our hell won't have the numbers nor the experience or even the projection ability. Your also suggesting the next one can be cowed by threats word of Jim Mab thinks of herself as expendable. She does not care if she dies in the protection of the outer gates.

Also none of this mentions that by the time we can fight Mab in battle we will definitely know about the outer gates so the idea of murdering her being currently a good idea is stupid. Heck the idea that right now we would think its a good idea is stupid she the leader of a nation essentially you think molly believes there would be no repercussions of that in the world at this moment? Even discounting the outer gates she upholds the fucking unseelie accords how stupid do you think molly is?
 
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firefrog600 said:
this this is pretty stupid. For one I said we cannot replace mab, us WE can't what your suggesting doesn't actually change anything long term. The worry is also a much less skilled, intelligent, and emotionally stable version of Mab would be taking over. The mantles make them what they are to a large degree anyone who gets said mantle is gonna eventually end up like them and be far less skilled for a long while. It was not only problematic due to the infection it was also problematic due to Maeve being a spoiled brat and will continue to be one in the transition of becoming the winter queen. The personality changes take time and so does acquiring skill. None of what you suggest changes anything. Not to mention the security risks of assuming we can get a good person in maeves position and then murder fucking Mab and have them replace Mab. They'd be so utterly incompetent at the role my god dude.

Also yes we do know they will change due to the mantle over time they won't be exactly the same. I also said WE CANNOT PERSONALLY CHANGE THE SYSTEM. Our hell won't have the numbers nor the experience or even the projection ability. Your also suggesting the next one can be cowed by threats word of Jim Mab thinks of herself as expendable. She does not care if she dies in the protection of the outer gates.
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No? Just.... no?

Rashid literally tells Harry if there's any reorganizing to be done, if an ordinary Winter Lady became Winter Queen, that there would be no major issues:
"Most years, it would pose no major difficulty," he said.
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If the Outsiders are making a push, we can just, you know, wait until they stop attacking. Most of the time, per word of Rashid the Gatekeeper, the fighting isn't as bad as Cold Days. Not to mention Mab doesn't exactly do anything other than let her 100k+ Sidhe just duke it out with the Outsiders; the issue was having Maeve order them to stop fighting rather than Maeve not knowing how to lead an army.

And who said anything about changing the system? Let Winter take care of the Outer Gates. We'll just arrange a few, ah, personnel changes in the background.

I assure you, Mab can be threatened. Not caring if she dies protecting the Outer Gates does not equate to wanting to die to a random godkiller. Not that it matters what Mab thinks, 'cause she'll be dead; nowhere IC or OOC is it mentioned that the next Winter Queen will become exactly like her to the point of having her same zen perspective on being obliterated.

If on the off chance your headcanon occurs and the next Winter Queen is Mab 2.0, well we've killed a monster and can just threaten the next Mab to stick to fighting Outsiders or we'll kill her; after all, if she values fighting Outsiders above all, surely she wouldn't want the fight to get harder because of Winter having to replace their Queen a third time, right?
 
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TheGrape said:
No? Just.... no?

Rashid literally tells Harry if there's any reorganizing to be done, if an ordinary Winter Lady became Winter Queen, that there would be no major issues:


If the Outsiders are making a push, we can just, you know, wait until they stop attacking. Most of the time, per word of Rashid the Gatekeeper, the fighting isn't as bad as Cold Days. Not to mention Mab doesn't exactly do anything other than let her 100k+ Sidhe just duke it out with the Outsiders; the issue was having Maeve order them to stop fighting rather than Maeve not knowing how to lead an army.

And who said anything about changing the system? Let Winter take care of the Outer Gates. We'll just arrange a few, ah, personnel changes in the background.

I assure you, Mab can be threatened. Not caring if she dies protecting the Outer Gates does not equate to wanting to die to a random godkiller. Not that it matters what Mab thinks, 'cause she'll be dead; nowhere IC or OOC is it mentioned that the next Winter Queen will become exactly like her to the point of having her same zen perspective on being obliterated.
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The whole topic was me saying we can't change the system so me? From like the beginning of the topic. We've got word in story and out that mantles affect peoples headspaces I'm not saying they'd be an exact copy of Mab just you know eventually have a similar mind set. May take a couple decades though its not exactly an instant change we know the summer lady took at least some time to change they are a near copy of the previous summer lady in a lot of ways though before she died. We know that Mab has other roles than just being queen many of them we don't know in character, she also enforces the accords which are important, and has backroom dealings we don't know of. We know there are metaphysical battles going on we don't understand, we know that mab has roles she serves other than just being queen and being pretty, we do know for a fact that the next queen would be less skilled. Also never debated she can be threatened just making it clear that she clears about her objective above everything else.

Also I was making it clear that rapid changes might have problems we don't know the exact metaphysics its probably safe to assume there's not been too many changes in direct succession all at once though. I mean theres only been a few summer and winter ladys. Like two summer mothers, one winter mother, and like what 4 queens between the court in its history? There was also a worry about maeve becoming queen at some point in previous books amounting to it would be a very shitty transition until she acclimates to the role before cold days.

Edit: You could also make deals with Mab she can be negotiated with when she wants something.
 
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firefrog600 said:
The whole topic was me saying we can't change the system so me? From like the beginning of the topic. We've got word in story and out that mantles affect peoples headspaces I'm not saying they'd be an exact copy of Mab just you know eventually have a similar mind set. May take a couple decades though its not exactly an instant change we know the summer lady took at least some time to change they are a near copy of the previous summer lady in a lot of ways though before she died. We know that Mab has other roles than just being queen many of them we don't know in character, she also enforces the accords which are important, and has backroom dealings we don't know of. We know there are metaphysical battles going on we don't understand, we know that mab has roles she serves other than just being queen and being pretty, we do know for a fact that the next queen would be less skilled. Also never debated she can be threatened just making it clear that she clears about her objective above everything else.

Also I was making it clear that rapid changes might have problems we don't know the exact metaphysics its probably safe to assume there's not been too many changes in direct succession all at once though. I mean theres only been a few summer and winter ladys. Like two summer mothers, one winter mother, and like what 4 queens between the court in its history?
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You are arguing that we should not kill Mab, who is a monster, because we can't deal with the consequences.

I am arguing that we should kill Mab, who is a monster, because we can deal with the consequences.

So far, you haven't shown any IC proof that there are any consequences that are beyond us. Whether or not there are further repercussions to Mab's timely destruction is immaterial at this point; as far as we can tell right now, her death would be nothing but a plus to the world. When this comes up I'm sure we'll get further input from people like the Merlin who are invested in keeping humanity safe, but until they actually come to us with any additional information, as far as we can tell from the books and from WoJ, killing Mab will not mean the end of any world save the world of darkness that she's had a large part in cultivating.
 
TheGrape said:
You are arguing that we should not kill Mab, who is a monster, because we can't deal with the consequences.

I am arguing that we should kill Mab, who is a monster, because we can deal with the consequences.

So far, you haven't shown any IC proof that there are any consequences that are beyond us. Whether or not there are further repercussions to Mab's timely destruction is immaterial at this point; as far as we can tell right now, her death would be nothing but a plus to the world. When this comes up I'm sure we'll get further input from people like the Merlin who are invested in keeping humanity safe, but until they actually come to us with any additional information, as far as we can tell from the books and from WoJ, killing Mab will not mean the end of any world save the world of darkness that she's had a large part in cultivating.
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Uh I never said it would be the end of the world just have a really shitty transition and cause problems. Replacing the whole system might end the world killing Mab would have consequences not necessarily the world ending kind (well it could really depends on circumstances though) bad ones to be sure though. Simply cause in that transition people will exploit the problems, deals will be made, certain people can die, the replacement can be less competent, the replacement could maybe even intentionally cause problems.

Also we don't need to know about the outer gates to know killing the queen of a supernatural nations might have consequences for not just us except the world. Also we aren't arrogant enough to think we could beat her right now.
 
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