Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[X] Plan Reaperman

Yeah fire being a catch all thing is definitely more a lot of beings are affected by it kind of thing than a everything is. Also for wizards being more hardy than mortals eh I'd toss it up to theatrical movie logic. Than Dresden actually being any hardier than normies. It's stated time and again a single sniper bullet could kill just about any senior council member if caught unaware.
 
Votes as they stand. Pretty much one sided.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Apr 5, 2023 at 11:04 AM, finished with 100 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Plan Reaperman
    -[X]Turn 0: Full Defense + Activate Shintai: 2m, 2wp
    -[X]Turn 1: Activate Melee Excellency 3/3 + Attack + Defend: 1m
    --[X]Attack: 23 dice at DC6 (BSM -1 + Multi action penalty 1)
    --[X]Defend: 22 dice at DC5 (Dark Sun 4 + BSM -1 + Multiaction penalty 2)
    -[X]Turn 2: Melee Excellency 2/3 + Attack + Defend
    -[X]Turn 3: Melee Excellency 1/3 + Attack + Defend
    -[X]Mobility as needed
    -[X]LYDIA: Retreat to rally point, + use Open The Way to reopen Way : 1m, + 1wp for autosux
    -[X]STUNT: As Usum's unease vanishes under a wave of indignation, you catch Lydia's arm with your offhand, your eyes never leaving your enemy as you sign out a quick message on her arm. As she retreats behind you, you do something entirely unexpected. You laugh in his face. "Thief you name me? You?" You inject all the scorn of teenage contempt into your voice. "A nameless bandit, accusing a rightful heir of theft. A toad, lusting after swan flesh." All trace of levity abruptly leaves your voice. "A running dog seeking more victims for his slavemaster." You sneer."Thrice I name you fool. Fool, I name you, for selling your birthright for a mess of pottage. Fool, I name you for wearing your chains as adornments."With each word your anima brightens, the green fires driving the shadows further and further back even as they condense around your form. And your voice is a choral symphony as you whisper. "Fool I name you for coming to this city." As your warform stabilizes around you, you finish."One more time." You waggle your shield mockingly. "Come."
    [X] Plan Tree
    -[X] Ask the Einherjer to cover you and Lydja.
    -[X] Transform into your Shintai.
    -[X] Activate Melee Excellency
    -[X] STUNT: "Behold then, the tree grown from in fertile soil. Shintai" you declare, as the winter's chill engulfs the area around you, and the shadows flicker, as if afraid of what's to come.
 
Nah. GSNF is nerfed. The Akuma soaks Agg damage so his entire Soak is rolled once for the normal damage we do and the entire soak is rolled for GSNF separately.

So best to save essence.
 
Votes as they stand. Pretty much one sided.
Adhoc vote count started by Yzarc on Apr 5, 2023 at 11:04 AM, finished with 100 posts and 14 votes.

  • [X] Plan Reaperman
    -[X]Turn 0: Full Defense + Activate Shintai: 2m, 2wp
    -[X]Turn 1: Activate Melee Excellency 3/3 + Attack + Defend: 1m
    --[X]Attack: 23 dice at DC6 (BSM -1 + Multi action penalty 1)
    --[X]Defend: 22 dice at DC5 (Dark Sun 4 + BSM -1 + Multiaction penalty 2)
    -[X]Turn 2: Melee Excellency 2/3 + Attack + Defend
    -[X]Turn 3: Melee Excellency 1/3 + Attack + Defend
    -[X]Mobility as needed
    -[X]LYDIA: Retreat to rally point, + use Open The Way to reopen Way : 1m, + 1wp for autosux
    -[X]STUNT: As Usum's unease vanishes under a wave of indignation, you catch Lydia's arm with your offhand, your eyes never leaving your enemy as you sign out a quick message on her arm. As she retreats behind you, you do something entirely unexpected. You laugh in his face. "Thief you name me? You?" You inject all the scorn of teenage contempt into your voice. "A nameless bandit, accusing a rightful heir of theft. A toad, lusting after swan flesh." All trace of levity abruptly leaves your voice. "A running dog seeking more victims for his slavemaster." You sneer."Thrice I name you fool. Fool, I name you, for selling your birthright for a mess of pottage. Fool, I name you for wearing your chains as adornments."With each word your anima brightens, the green fires driving the shadows further and further back even as they condense around your form. And your voice is a choral symphony as you whisper. "Fool I name you for coming to this city." As your warform stabilizes around you, you finish."One more time." You waggle your shield mockingly. "Come."
    [X] Plan Tree
    -[X] Ask the Einherjer to cover you and Lydja.
    -[X] Transform into your Shintai.
    -[X] Activate Melee Excellency
    -[X] STUNT: "Behold then, the tree grown from in fertile soil. Shintai" you declare, as the winter's chill engulfs the area around you, and the shadows flicker, as if afraid of what's to come.

I know you guys want to get to the next update, I'm excited for it too but I am going to do the update to this tomorrow for two reasons:
  • There is going to be a lot of rolling and I do not want to do that late
  • If anything big happens that will spark a lot of discussions and questions I do not want to leave it unclear overnight
 
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When have we ever used it on someone who matters?

Though, BRR agg damage Rendered it kinda worthless.
 
I'm pretty sure the downside to GSNF is that you have to have already done damage, and thus defeated their soak, before you can activate it. Then it lets you pay a point of essence to increase the done damage by 4A. Otherwise it seems way too weak for a 3-dot charm. As is, there's not much reason to use it, since one essence is a little expensive for a chance at doing more damage. It kind of feels like a waste of a 3-dot charm we could have spent on other things, like a perfect defense from Kakuri.
 
When have we ever used it on someone who matters?

Though, BRR agg damage Rendered it kinda worthless.
We killed the big Fetch and Holt with it, so there's that.

I'm pretty sure the downside to GSNF is that you have to have already done damage, and thus defeated their soak, before you can activate it. Then it lets you pay a point of essence to increase the done damage by 4A. Otherwise it seems way too weak for a 3-dot charm. As is, there's not much reason to use it, since one essence is a little expensive for a chance at doing more damage. It kind of feels like a waste of a 3-dot charm we could have spent on other things, like a perfect defense from Kakuri.
That's how I thought it worked too.
 
By the way there any way we can get something cheaper to open ways eventually? I know the charms likely have more uses. But, the cost for a normal wizard to open a way vs us is a rather big difference. Once we get charms or magic that allows it.

Same reason I want the sight eventually even if we have to use primacy to not go insane if we see something we really shouldn't look at or explode.
 
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[X] Plan Reaperman

Yeah fire being a catch all thing is definitely more a lot of beings are affected by it kind of thing than a everything is. Also for wizards being more hardy than mortals eh I'd toss it up to theatrical movie logic. Than Dresden actually being any hardier than normies. It's stated time and again a single sniper bullet could kill just about any senior council member if caught unaware.
1)Being able to soak Agg doesnt make you tougher against a 50 cal AP bullet.
It just means you get a roll to mitigate things like fire damage and loup garou claws instead of an automatic"lol you're fxkd"

2)A world-class sniper(Dex 5, Firearms 5) with a standard rifle(Dmg 8L) and a scope(-1 DC)rolling at DC 5 after Aim(+2 dice)as a surprise round is rolling 12 dice with an avg of 7 successes.
Which translates to 7+8 = 15 damage dice, against a wizard with soak of Stamina 2-4.

First shot is an incap, second is a kill.
No real difference.

3)No it isnt stated.

We see one assassin, Kinkaid, state that using a sniper rifle from several hundred yards away is his preferred option.
We also see Ebenezar literally walk into the teeth of a company of mercs with automatic weapons and no shields and have his robes literally ignore automatic weapons fire.

I'm pretty sure the downside to GSNF is that you have to have already done damage, and thus defeated their soak, before you can activate it. Then it lets you pay a point of essence to increase the done damage by 4A. Otherwise it seems way too weak for a 3-dot charm. As is, there's not much reason to use it, since one essence is a little expensive for a chance at doing more damage. It kind of feels like a waste of a 3-dot charm we could have spent on other things, like a perfect defense from Kakuri.
GSNF inflicts the highest of Strength,Charisma or Intelligence automatic aggravated HLs.
Its a damage booster that gets more powerful the more buffs you are already running, like shintai or Mo Kung.
Thats my understanding.

Reasoning is that most entities in ExWoD have 7HLs; you literally have to go up to Methuselahs and higher to meet antagonists with routinely greater health tracks. Being able to potentially throw 5 Agg or more to a person's health track essentially ends most fights, since you've dumped them into -5 wound penalties or Incap.

So it has to be soakable.
GSNF says it inflicts automatic damage pretty sure that means you don't get to soak it.
The book appears to state or imply when damage is unsoakable.

Then there's the math.
If GSNF allowed you to ignore soak and deal, say Intelligence/Strength/Charisma 5 Agg damage directly to the health track of anyone you hit, every fight would end with the first Excellency + GSNF.

I mean, imagine an Infernal with base Str 5 + Mo Kung 3: Tigers Strength to raise his Strength to 7-8.
Even people who didnt die with the first strike would suffer crippling wound penalties.
That does not appear to be working as intended.

So your interpretation is inaccurate.
By the way there any way we can get something cheaper to open ways eventually? I know the charms likely have more uses. But, the cost for a normal wizard to open a way vs us is a rather big difference. Once we get charms or magic that allows it.

Same reason I want the sight eventually even if we have to use primacy to not go insane if we see something we really shouldn't look at or explode.
There are Charms for opening Ways.
Ultimate Darkness Internalization allows Molly access to the Shadowlands for 1 Essence, and Hellwalker Technique to the Penumbra for the same cost. And I think there's one Ancient Sorcery spell, though its more expensive.

We could use Conveyance Path, but its likely easier for us to recover Essence than to recover WP from using a Path.
So its only likely to be preferred if we're moving a party.
 
1)Being able to soak Agg doesnt make you tougher against a 50 cal AP bullet.
It just means you get a roll to mitigate things like fire damage and loup garou claws instead of an automatic"lol you're fxkd"

2)A world-class sniper(Dex 5, Firearms 5) with a standard rifle(Dmg 8L) and a scope(-1 DC)rolling at DC 5 after Aim(+2 dice)as a surprise round is rolling 12 dice with an avg of 7 successes.
Which translates to 7+8 = 15 damage dice, against a wizard with soak of Stamina 2-4.

First shot is an incap, second is a kill.
No real difference.

3)No it isnt stated.

We see one assassin, Kinkaid, state that using a sniper rifle from several hundred yards away is his preferred option.
We also see Ebenezar literally walk into the teeth of a company of mercs with automatic weapons and no shields and have his robes literally ignore automatic weapons fire.


GSNF inflicts the highest of Strength,Charisma or Intelligence automatic aggravated HLs.
Its a damage booster that gets more powerful the more buffs you are already running, like shintai or Mo Kung.
Thats my understanding.

Reasoning is that most entities in ExWoD have 7HLs; you literally have to go up to Methuselahs and higher to meet antagonists with routinely greater health tracks. Being able to potentially throw 5 Agg or more to a person's health track essentially ends most fights, since you've dumped them into -5 wound penalties or Incap.

So it has to be soakable.
The book appears to state or imply when damage is unsoakable.

Then there's the math.
If GSNF allowed you to ignore soak and deal, say Intelligence/Strength/Charisma 5 Agg damage directly to the health track of anyone you hit, every fight would end with the first Excellency + GSNF.

I mean, imagine an Infernal with base Str 5 + Mo Kung 3: Tigers Strength to raise his Strength to 7-8.
Even people who didnt die with the first strike would suffer crippling wound penalties.
That does not appear to be working as intended.

So your interpretation is inaccurate.

There are Charms for opening Ways.
Ultimate Darkness Internalization allows Molly access to the Shadowlands for 1 Essence, and Hellwalker Technique to the Penumbra for the same cost. And I think there's one Ancient Sorcery spell, though its more expensive.

We could use Conveyance Path, but its likely easier for us to recover Essence than to recover WP from using a Path.
So its only likely to be preferred if we're moving a party.
Imma note that is a prepared ebenezar that shits enchanted I'm talking about their squishy body.

Also it's more a spending whole essence for the ways seems wasteful when I'm fairly sure white court and wizards could open a way dozens of times.
 
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First shot is an incap, second is a kill.
No real difference.
Not good enough if you are trying to avoid a death curse. You want to kill them before they know they are dying.
The book appears to state or imply when damage is unsoakable.

Then there's the math.
If GSNF allowed you to ignore soak and deal, say Intelligence/Strength/Charisma 5 Agg damage directly to the health track of anyone you hit, every fight would end with the first Excellency + GSNF.

I mean, imagine an Infernal with base Str 5 + Mo Kung 3: Tigers Strength to raise his Strength to 7-8.
Even people who didnt die with the first strike would suffer crippling wound penalties.
That does not appear to be working as intended.

So your interpretation is inaccurate.
Us killing any enemy that we land a hit on and spend an extra essence seems like the charm working as intended. Otherwise why ever spend for the 3 dot charm? Get a perfect defense instead.
 
Then there's the math.
If GSNF allowed you to ignore soak and deal, say Intelligence/Strength/Charisma 5 Agg damage directly to the health track of anyone you hit, every fight would end with the first Excellency + GSNF.
The problem is context. Anyone we're likely to spend one of our very limited motes to deal bonus damage to is unlikely to actually take most of it.

If we slap a mortal or something with GSNF they should basically explode.
 
So here is how @DragonParadox is ruling on GSNF. As in this is how he explained and rolled it.

Say Bob has 15 soak. Molly attacks and rolls and does, say, 5 agg damage. Bob soaks agg, so he then rolls his entire 15 soak and gets 4 sux, meaning Molly does 1 dmg.

As it is a successful damage, she spends reflexively spends 1 Essence for GSNF and does 5 agg damage, no rolls needed. Bob then, again, rolls his entire 15 Soak again against the 5 agg damage, ignoring the result of the previous sux. He rolls soak and gets 5 sux. So GSNF does no damage.

So Bob rolls soak twice, once against the normal attack that did damage and once against GSNF.

It means you do not have to roll attack or damage, but it is not unsoakable.

Green Sun Nimbus Flare (•••)
The Infernal seeds her attacks with the fire that began the world and which may very well end it: the poisonous radiance of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the legend-destroying power which erupted above the floodplain of Bangladesh, and which is now the dream secretly nurtured at the heart of Lanka. A target struck with this Charm dies from the inside-out as her flesh erupts into geysers of sinister emerald flames.

System: After successfully striking a target and inflicting damage with an attack, the player may reflexively spend 1 Essence to inflict (highest of Strength, Charisma, or Intelligence) levels of automatic aggravated damage.
Which I think is against the intent of the charm. As per the bolded part, the radiation erupts, literally from within the character's wounds and internal injuries should not be soaked. At the barest minimum, Armor soak should not apply as it is completely bypassing armor.

I agree that this damage really should not be soaked separately and given how (a) precious Essence is, (b) 3 Dot Charm, (c) Mechanics and Flavor text, (d) Most high level characters can soak Agg, (e) The Solar and Sidereal versions add to damage rolls and not separate rolls, it is not intended to and should not be soak able.

Here is the Solar and Sidereal charms.

Fire and Stones Strike (•••)
The Solar's blows burn with the long-dimmed fires of Creation, striking grievous wounds through the strongest armor and the most potent defenses.
System: After successfully striking a target, the player may reflexively spend 1 Essence to add (rating of the Ability she's attacking with) automatic damage to her damage roll.
Supernal Effect: When the Solar defeats an opponent with Fire and Stones Strike (either by knocking them unconscious or slaying them), she may opt to describe the ludicrously overkill method by which they suffer defeat (spiraling through the air and crashing through a pile of crates, for example; or exploding into four segments separated by a bloody cross hanging in the air for a moment in the wake of the Solar's cuts). All enemies who witness this spectacle increase the difficulty of all actions they take by +1 for the rest of the battle.

The Greater Sign of Saturn
The Chosen of Endings spends 1 point of permanent Willpower and makes the Greater Sign of Saturn.
For the rest of the scene, all of the attacks made by the Sidereal and her allies within the same city inflict automatic damage rather than rolling dice.

So both the Solar and Sideral versions add to Damage roll rather than do damage seperately. The Solar version is also a 3 DOT charm.

@DragonParadox To add to the discussion, GSNF does not say add to roll because it specifically requests you to do damage.

In the Solar version the soak roll is still pending and the charm Adds to that roll.

But GSNF is different in that it requests you to do at least 1 dmg. Meaning the Soak roll has already been defeated.

That is the difference. It requires you to defeat the soak roll to do agg damage. Because it makes no sense otherwise.

There is literally no damage adder charm that requires you to roll soak twice for different damage. Literally every charm is concluded in one roll.

The Solar version is a do not loose charm whereas the Infernal version is a win harder charm, aimed at regenerators like Lunars.

Because, due to the prohibitive Essence cost, rolling Soak twice for attacks with GSNF is a massive nerf as no other charm has this treatment.
 
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Not good enough if you are trying to avoid a death curse. You want to kill them before they know they are dying.
More than good enough.
Thats a sniper who gets a surprise round AND initiative on the first round; said wizard is dead or incapacitated before they even get to act.

We literally see this done with Grevane in Dead Beat. Ramirez stabs him and takes the time to shoot him dead.
Us killing any enemy that we land a hit on and spend an extra essence seems like the charm working as intended. Otherwise why ever spend for the 3 dot charm? Get a perfect defense instead.
I dont agree.
Its a damage booster; it is supposed to boost the damage Molly does on a successful attack.
Similar to the poison charm in Hell of Boiling Oil.
I'm fairly sure it's been stated bullets can kill wizards enough times throughout the series.
Bullets can kill wizards. We've seen bullets kill wizards; see Grevane and Corpsetaker in Dead Beat, and Dresden himself.
Thats not the same thing as saying that wizards lack lethal/agg soak. Listens to Wind certainly wont keep throwing himself into melee with naagloshii and Titans without lethal/agg soak.

But thats for the QM to rule.
The problem is context. Anyone we're likely to spend one of our very limited motes to deal bonus damage to is unlikely to actually take most of it.
If we slap a mortal or something with GSNF they should basically explode.
Mortals have no lethal soak; they can soak Bashing with Stamina, but Lethal and Agg requires armor or magic .
If you slap a mortal with GSNF they will explode, even under the current explanation.

So here is how @DragonParadox is ruling on GSNF. As in this is how he explained and rolled it.

Say Bob has 15 soak. Molly attacks and rolls and does, say, 5 agg damage. Bob soaks agg, so he then rolls his entire 15 soak and gets 4 sux, meaning Molly does 1 dmg.

As it is a successful damage, she spends reflexively spends 1 Essence for GSNF and does 5 agg damage, no rolls needed. Bob then, again, rolls his entire 15 Soak again against the 5 agg damage, ignoring the result of the previous sux. He rolls soak and gets 5 sux. So GSNF does no damage.

So Bob rolls soak twice, once against the normal attack that did damage and once against GSNF.
Thank you for the explanation.

I was under the impression that GSNF added to Molly's successful damage roll before Bob could roll his soak against it. So instead of Molly having 5 damage in your example, its 5+5 = 10 damage.
Damage booster. One roll, not two. Thats how its supposed to work.

Holden calls it a damage booster, even, not an independent effect. Page 440, in the FAQ
Infernals don't even have Castes as a set of guiderails.
What the fuck do I do here?


Okay. You'll be picking two Hells to create your
own evil weirdo. Kakuri is the meanest list, with a lot
of ways to torment your enemies, debuff opponents,
and disguise yourself. Lanka is a very fighty list, with
a lot of Charms to survive punishment, the nastiest
damage-booster in the Infernal toolkit
, and some
brute-force social bullying.
The Hell of Being Skinned
Alive is hugely mobile and contains the best active
(rather than face-tanking) defenses, along with a lot of
offensive Charms and some stealth. The Wicked City
is the thinky/techy list, it lends itself to mad doctor
and mind control concepts. The Hell of Boiling Oil
is about protecting your friends and boiling your en-
emies; if you have LOVE and HATE knuckle tattoos,
this is your list. Finally, the Hell of Burrowing Maggots
has Charms for being a demon messiah, evil genie,
world-walker, and monster-boss.
If the QM is houseruling it, their prerogative.
 
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More than good enough.
Thats a sniper who gets a surprise round AND initiative on the first round; said wizard is dead or incapacitated before they even get to act.

We literally see this done with Grevane in Dead Beat. Ramirez stabs him and takes the time to shoot him dead.

I dont agree.
Its a damage booster; it is supposed to boost the damage Molly does on a successful attack.
Similar to the poison charm in Hell of Boiling Oil.

Bullets can kill wizards. We've seen bullets kill wizards; see Grevane and Corpsetaker in Dead Beat, and Dresden himself.
Thats not the same thing as saying that wizards lack lethal/agg soak. Listens to Wind certainly wont keep throwing himself into melee with naagloshii and Titans without lethal/agg soak.

But thats for the QM to rule.

Mortals have no lethal soak; they can soak Bashing with Stamina, but Lethal and Agg requires armor or magic .
If you slap a mortal with GSNF they will explode, even under the current explanation.


Thank you for the explanation.

I was under the impression that GSNF added to Molly's damage roll before Bob could roll his soak against it.
Damage booster. One roll, not two.
Thats how its supposed to work.

Holden calls it a damage booster, even, not an independent effect. Page 440, in the FAQ
I mean when I say that they are squishy I'm talking about without magic their base bodies are squishy. Like you keep bringing up magics which of course they'd use it's like a more intrinsic weapon they have on call with their mind. I'm not saying they can't fight these things or nothing just that without actively using magic most of them are as squishy as a fairly fit dude.
 
So both the Solar and Sideral versions add to Damage roll rather than do damage seperately. The Solar version is also a 3 DOT charm.

@DragonParadox To add to the discussion, GSNF does not say add to roll because it specifically requests you to do damage.

In the Solar version the soak roll is still pending and the charm Adds to that roll.

But GSNF is different in that it requests you to do at least 1 dmg. Meaning the Soak roll has already been defeated.

That is the difference. It requires you to defeat the soak roll to do agg damage. Because it makes no sense otherwise.

There is literally no damage adder charm that requires you to roll soak twice for different damage. Literally every charm is concluded in one roll.

The Solar version is a do not loose charm whereas the Infernal version is a win harder charm, aimed at regenerators like Lunars.

Because, due to the prohibitive Essence cost, rolling Soak twice for attacks with GSNF is a massive nerf as no other charm has this treatment.
More importantly adding an extra soak roll is clunky and seems like bad game design slowing the combat down.
 
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