Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

[Yog]

Then again the palace guard could have something like 50,000 royal guards in it. if we're being honest it is fucking huge after all and basically the center of world government right?

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This number is not too implausible to me. I mean, I aimed for "as long as we have essence, we always have a supply of dedicated warriors ready to fight at our command". I definitely intended for Molly to expand on the paths out of hell.

It's important to remember - escaping hells is not meant to be easy, and is always meant to be a challenge. The formal royal guard might be small, but they are super-elite. Nothing stops Molly from summoning other inhabitants of her hell. From aspirants training to join the guard, to college professors and librarians of the Infinite Library. I mean, if nothing else, I expect cyberdevils we summon to start coming from our kingdom when we get it.

I'll make another pass over the text to try and make it clear that Molly herself can in fact, call others. Should be able to, at least.

There's an upside to a relatively small number of guards - you get named characters, instead of faceless mooks.

Edit: Oh by the way how many people would be in the prison minimum?

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If you mean in the world-prison buried under ice? That's deliberately left unclear. The whole thing is specifically meant to be Terra Incognita in need of exploration, conquest and restoration. But the upper boundaries could be in the trillions. I mean, it's larger than a moon. It's a multi-layered labyrinth. Even if we stipulate population density of only 1 person per square kilometer, and 1 kilometer high celling on average (i.e. assume that there are huge caverns inside), we still get 280 billion inhabitants inside.

 

[firefrog600]

This number is not too implausible to me. I mean, I aimed for "as long as we have essence, we always have a supply of dedicated warriors ready to fight at our command". I definitely intended for Molly to expand on the paths out of hell.

It's important to remember - escaping hells is not meant to be easy, and is always meant to be a challenge. The formal royal guard might be small, but they are super-elite. Nothing stops Molly from summoning other inhabitants of her hell. From aspirants training to join the guard, to college professors and librarians of the Infinite Library. I mean, if nothing else, I expect cyberdevils we summon to start coming from our kingdom when we get it.

I'll make another pass over the text to try and make it clear that Molly herself can in fact, call others. Should be able to, at least.

There's an upside to a relatively small number of guards - you get named characters, instead of faceless mooks.

If you mean in the world-prison buried under ice? That's deliberately left unclear. The whole thing is specifically meant to be Terra Incognita in need of exploration, conquest and restoration. But the upper boundaries could be in the trillions. I mean, it's larger than a moon. It's a multi-layered labyrinth. Even if we stipulate population density of only 1 person per square kilometer, and 1 kilometer high celling on average (i.e. assume that there are huge caverns inside), we still get 280 billion inhabitants inside.

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in fairness to faceless mooks well I mean we already would its just for organization forming if possible thousands are needed. The way some charms work if dp doesn't nerf them means we could summon a whole thousands of person army if we just spent like a month calling them to earth not even a month if we did just that and regenerated essence. Plenty of logistics issues there of course it is something we'd absolutely want if we want to do something like invade a place in the nevernever, defeat an army, fill up the vacuum caused by killing off a faction, negotiate from a place of absolute power, fuck it replace members of government in the real world who we know for a fact are red court or red court adjacent, etc etc.

edit: Also given the population number of 50 billion and the fact that a lot of these are several centuries old if not thousands of years old probably means a lot of people who are in the royal guard are fairly elite. Plus the numbers could be high like it could technically have as many as the national guard in the u.s. for example since its a 50 billion population and these people would have all lived centuries minimum before getting the position. For character bloat meh I mean it'd obviously have ranks in it and divisions.

The U.S. doesn't have nearly the population or long lived nature these demons and humans would have. Plus the U.S. doesn't have a united world or even 10th of the population of this hell. The amount of warriors we have in our hell not royal guard is probably more than the u.s. population.

For the prison well wow holy shit I'm unsure we'd even have the time to clear it simply because mollys time in her hell is limited and I'm unsure there is any real way to fix that.

 

[Nyarky]

This is a fallacious argument in my mind. The Kingdom charm is one that boosts us overall, essentially granting us access to resources N/A background, among a number of others. It doesn't make much sense to delay it (a lot). Maybe till after meeting Mab, so we can keep it secret for a bit.

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I personally would be more interested in getting it before Mab if possible, because it is the biggest game changer we can bring to the table of negotiations, there is a strong advantage to being the Empress of our own nation rather than simply an Exalt on our lonesome.

 

[firefrog600]

Well, there's always Splintered Gale.

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what that do?

 

[Yog]

For the prison well wow holy shit I'm unsure we'd even have the time to clear it simply because mollys time in her hell is limited and I'm unsure there is any real way to fix that.

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Well, there's always Splintered Gale.

I personally would be more interested in getting it before Mab if possible, because it is the biggest game changer we can bring to the table of negotiations, there is a strong advantage to being the Empress of our own nation rather than simply an Exalt on our lonesome.

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True. But there's also a big advantage to being underestimated and not having anyone know we have a backing of a world behind us.

what that do?

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Splintered Gale incarnation:

Splintered Gale Incarnation (•••••)
The Infernal flays herself apart, creating duplicates
of herself.
System: The Infernal spends 5 Essence and
screams, issuing forth a crimson gale that resolves into
a perfect copy of herself. This clone comes into the
world naked, perfectly loyal to its creator, precisely
aware of what it is, and in possession of the same personality
and memories as the Infernal. It has the same
Traits as the Infernal, but is completely mortal, with
no magic of any sort. Alternately, if the Infernal possesses
a working uterus, she can use this Charm to impregnate
herself. This parthenogenetic child will grow
up to be a perfect physical duplicate of the Infernal,
but is otherwise a normal human being.
The Infernal can have up to her Essence rating in
clones alive and active at once. By spending 1 Essence,
she can cause a clone within her presence to unravel
back into crimson wind which she absorbs, granting
her all of the memories the clone accumulated during
its existence. If the Infernal wishes, she may re-create
specific absorbed clones in the future when using
Splintered Gale Incarnation.
If the Infernal should ever die while any of her
clones are abroad in the world, her body dissolves into
a screaming wind that streams across the world and
pours itself into the nearest clone. This destroys the
clone's memories and identity as the Infernal takes
over its body. Reincarnating in this fashion reduces the
Infernal's Essence rating by 1. If this would reduce her
to Essence 0, then reincarnation is impossible.
Signature Effect: When the Infernal dons her
Shintai form, (Essence rating) clones emerge alongside
her when her chrysalis shatters. They don't count
against the normal clone limit of Splintered Gale Incarnation,
and will vanish into crimson wind when the
Shintai form ends; they cannot be reabsorbed. To be
clear, these are clones of the Infernal's normal form,
not her Shintai body.

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Essentially it's one of those "we are well and truly transhuman" charms, where the nature of our existence changes and we start being able to exist across multiple bodies, separate, yet connected.

 

[firefrog600]

Well, there's always Splintered Gale.

True. But there's also a big advantage to being underestimated and not having anyone know we have a backing of a world behind us.

Splintered Gale incarnation:

Essentially it's one of those "we are well and truly transhuman" charms, where the nature of our existence changes and we start being able to exist across multiple bodies, separate, yet connected.

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I mean no way molly without her powers could conquer the prison though not strong enough. Plus from an ooc perspective dp won't be able to write too much of what happens in said clones life when we reabsorb them. Definitely gonna keep one of those in our hell at all time though.

 

[Yog]

I mean no way molly without her powers could conquer the prison though not strong enough. Plus from an ooc perspective dp won't be able to write too much of what happens in said clones life when we reabsorb them. Definitely gonna keep one of those in our hell at all time though.

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It was ruled that clones keep all passive boosts we have. And the clones can be made into bakemono. And it's not like they would be acting alone. They'd have backing of the courts behind them.

 

[firefrog600]

It was ruled that clones keep all passive boosts we have. And the clones can be made into bakemono. And it's not like they would be acting alone. They'd have backing of the courts behind them.

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what constitutes as passive boost? Because I don't think they can do it without charms. That or have the morals to send people to conquer them or the numbers too.

 

[uju32]

Sorry everyone for not participating. Third 70 hour week in a row takes its to

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Hope you're okay.
Been there done that, not fun.

This is wrong. We have worked with Gard before. It's plausible that they know about it. And this assumes that we aren't under observation right now (even if the latter is unlikely).

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I do not agree.
We worked with Gard for all of six or seven hours on a Saturday afternoon/evening in July. It wasnt open, it wasnt documented. Its barely possible they might know of it. It isnt plausible though IMO.

And their knowing that Molly has worked with Gard before does not translate to Molly being able to tap her boss for military support at short notice. Dresden literally saving Gard's life not once but twice in canon didnt suddenly mean he could hire Einherjar in Changes. And Molly having Dresden as an ally doesnt mean she can call on the Blackstaff who trained him.

I mean. We just whistled up two Valks and a short platoon of Einherjar out of the blue.
Odin Donnar Vadderung doesnt hire out troops to just any geek off the street, and he's based out of Oslo; we literally called Gard a little after 5AM this morning and had Einherjar less than half an hour later.

Under normal circumstances we'd still be negotiating a contract right now, nevermind figuring out how to get them to Chicago.

For these guys to be here, one of several things had to happen:
▪Coincidence Yeah right
▪Odin Foresaw the need, which is kinda hard since Molly is Outside Fate according to Gard
▪Odin personally teleported 21 troops from Oslo to Chicago when we made a deal with Gard
▪A Sidereal Did It


None of those are stuff they could have predicted or planned for.

This is a fallacious argument in my mind. The Kingdom charm is one that boosts us overall, essentially granting us access to resources N/A background, among a number of others. It doesn't make much sense to delay it (a lot). Maybe till after meeting Mab, so we can keep it secret for a bit.

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I actually agree with @Artemis1992 and @Aeondrac that there are narrative reasons to delay.
There are certainly mechanical reasons to do so as well; multiple critical gaps in our skillset and Lydia's have to be closed first.

And I will caution that a Kingdom is a responsibility, not just a respurce to be tapped.
Its not only going to make our lives easier.

 

[Yog]

Hope you're okay.
Been there done that, not fun.

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Still have two or three weeks of the marathon until I get enough data to write a report. And then it's four students (3 masters and one bachelor) writing their theses (one of whom doesn't know what +/- symbol means).

Odin Donnar Vadderung doesnt hire out troops to just any geek off the street, and he's based out of Oslo; we literally called Gard a little after 5AM this morning and had Einherjar less than half an hour later.

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Odin has a long standing contract with Marcone, and there's a standing reason to keep a lot of troops in Chicago. It's called "there's an Infernal Exalted in residence that we might need to fight". These troops could have been stationed in Chicago in case they needed to try to take out Molly. And this is assuming Odin doesn't know about naagloshii.

And I will caution that a Kingdom is a responsibility, not just a respurce to be tapped.
Its not only going to make our lives easier.

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True. But on the balance it likely will help us, rather than burden us.

 

[firefrog600]

Still have two or three weeks of the marathon until I get enough data to write a report. And then it's four students (3 masters and one bachelor) writing their theses (one of whom doesn't know what +/- symbol means).

Odin has a long standing contract with Marcone, and there's a standing reason to keep a lot of troops in Chicago. It's called "there's an Infernal Exalted in residence that we might need to fight". These troops could have been stationed in Chicago in case they needed to try to take out Molly. And this is assuming Odin doesn't know about naagloshii.

True. But on the balance it likely will help us, rather than burden us.

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ehhhh I'm not sure even odin would know what exaltations are. Unless he has some way older mantles than odin which I guess they totally could.

 

[firefrog600]

I kinda want our hell after we move out from our moms. Honestly seems unlikely though given how fast we grow in the small amounts of time that go by.

 

[Yog]

ehhhh I'm not sure even odin would know what exaltations are. Unless he has some way older mantles than odin which I guess they totally could.

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He doesn't need to know what an exaltation is to know that Molly is powerful, unaffiliated and potentially hostile.

 

[Alratan]

Any kingdom we make existed fine for thousands of years before Molly shows up, so shouldn't need her active involvement. I'd personally fluff it that there was an empty throne and a prime minister in charge of her Hell's governance, so Molly can be a constitutional rather than absolutist monarch.

I'm still fiddling with my concept of a Hell of Involuntary Enlightenment, which I plan to post at some point, as I think it fits Molly well, as she's actually a good and faithful person, and it fits very well with her actual flaws/original sin of trying to make her friends into better people/not drug addicts.

While great in the abstract, I don't see Yog's current proposal as fitting Molly well enough.

 

[firefrog600]

Any kingdom we make existed fine for thousands of years before Molly shows up, so shouldn't need her active involvement. I'd personally fluff it that there was an empty throne and a prime minister in charge of her Hell's governance, so Molly can be a constitutional rather than absolutist monarch.

I'm still fiddling with my concept of a Hell of Involuntary Enlightenment, which I plan to post at some point, as I think it fits Molly well, as she's actually a good and faithful person, and it fits very well with her actual flaws/original sin of trying to make her friends into better people/not drug addicts.

While great in the abstract, I don't see Yog's current proposal as fitting Molly well enough.

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eh I mean the world literally did not exist until the moment molly became part of it and the inhabitants know that. Plus Yogs still has a functional government in place it just happens that Molly is basically the god to their government and people not just one of its rulers.

 

[Aeondrac]

I personally would be more interested in getting it before Mab if possible, because it is the biggest game changer we can bring to the table of negotiations, there is a strong advantage to being the Empress of our own nation rather than simply an Exalt on our lonesome.

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I really don't think it would help at all, it would likely just raise what Mab thinks she can get out of us. Winter is a fairly powerful supernatural faction and Mab herself is both strong willed and somewhat arrogant. She isn't going to be wary of putting the screws on a new minor power for whatever she can get.

 

[firefrog600]

I really don't think it would help at all, it would likely just raise what Mab thinks she can get out of us. Winter is a fairly powerful supernatural faction and Mab herself is both strong willed and somewhat arrogant. She isn't going to be wary of putting the screws on a new minor power for whatever she can get.

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is arrogant the right word cause she's very very paranoid and aware she can die and fail? Shes definitely incapable of backing down well no shes shown times when she can be not cowed. But, reasoned with through threats. Incapable of showing weakness?

 

[Alratan]

eh I mean the world literally did not exist until the moment molly became part of it and the inhabitants know that. Plus Yogs still has a functional government in place it just happens that Molly is basically the god to their government and people not just one of its rulers.

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I think it's the opposite. We're told that an infernal's Hell has a history stretching back well before they were exalted.

 

[firefrog600]

I think it's the opposite. We're told that an infernal's Hell has a history stretching back well before they were exalted.

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its literally achronal in nature alratan its not that they aren't people its that the whole world is basically created whole sale. its literally made with us in mind.

 

[Alratan]

its literally achronal in nature alratan its not that they aren't people its that the whole world is basically created whole sale. its literally made with us in mind.

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I think that the ExWoD text leaves it ambiguous where the Infernal's Hell's history comes from. It could be that it's all falsified, it could be that at the point of formation time passes incredibly quickly inside the Hell for however long it takes to generate the history.

What is certain is that from the perspective of the inhabitants it has existed without the active presence of the infernal for a long time and is in some form of equilibrium without them.

 

[firefrog600]

I think that the ExWoD text leaves it ambiguous where the Infernal's Hell's history comes from.

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thats fair fringe horror the entire world could be made real the instant molly gets the charm with a story inspired by her soul and the exaltation, or its achronal, or none of those. If find it rather likely its the first or the second though since a world can't really just naturally form the way most of our plans suggest.

 

[Aeondrac]

is arrogant the right word cause she's very very paranoid and aware she can die and fail? Shes definitely incapable of backing down well no shes shown times when she can be not cowed. But, reasoned with through threats. Incapable of showing weakness?

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It might not be quite the right word, but she is prone to a degree of blindness despite her paranoia. She won't back down at all even when it would be advantageous and will keep pushing even when it is not the best idea for her long term goals.

Maybe intractable is a better description.

Though she is hubristic as well so arrogant does fit. She has Anansi frozen in Arctis Tor and that is going to have the consequences you would expect from imprisoning a legendary trickster by WoJ. Classic Hubris right there, the greeks would be proud.

 

[firefrog600]

It might not be quite the right word, but she is prone to a degree of blindness despite her paranoia. She won't back down at all even when it would be advantageous and will keep pushing even when it is not the best idea for her long term goals.

Maybe intractable is a better description.

Though she is hubristic as well so arrogant does fit. She has Anansi frozen in Arctis Tor and that is going to have the consequences you would expect from imprisoning a legendary trickster by WoJ. Classic Hubris right there, the greeks would be proud.

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I'm sure harry wont suffer from that at all

 

[uju32]

Still have two or three weeks of the marathon until I get enough data to write a report. And then it's four students (3 masters and one bachelor) writing their theses (one of whom doesn't know what +/- symbol means).

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Oof.
Take care of yourself man.

Odin has a long standing contract with Marcone, and there's a standing reason to keep a lot of troops in Chicago. It's called "there's an Infernal Exalted in residence that we might need to fight". These troops could have been stationed in Chicago in case they needed to try to take out Molly. And this is assuming Odin doesn't know about naagloshii.

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Yes, Odin has a contract for a given amount of support. Its not a blank check.

Marcone canonically only hired Gard on a permanent basis, and hired other mercs in an as-needed basis,
When Marcone got jumped by the Denarians in canon, Gard didnt just whistle up a local posse of Einherjar stationed in Chicago, or call home for more troops; she asked Dresden. It fell on Dresden and the Knights to save his ass.

Furthermore, Marcone is a crime boss not a nationstate head.
Rich but not yet at drug cartel money levels.
And the man has lots of day to day expenses keeping his organization running and minions paid.

I have strong doubts about his ability to afford to indefinitely station immortal mercenary forces in Chicago outside of an active gang war. Or Odin's ability to afford to just hand them over.

Gard straight up tells Marcone they dont know what Molly is. As far as we know, that hasnt changed.
We just arent that well known OR important in the setting. Yet.

And Vadderung has lots of other commitments, as befitting One-Eye; during Peace Talks/Battlegrounds, he could only promise to shake loose five hundred troops to help defend Chicago iirc.
20 Einherjar is a small but significant chunk of that.

True. But on the balance it likely will help us, rather than burden us.

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Net balance, yes. In the medium to longterm, certainly.
But that doesnt mean that it wont require additional commitment of effort from us, or draw immediate aggro in the short to medium term. So you are going to want to build out that skillset first.

 

[Alratan]

I really don't think it would help at all, it would likely just raise what Mab thinks she can get out of us. Winter is a fairly powerful supernatural faction and Mab herself is both strong willed and somewhat arrogant. She isn't going to be wary of putting the screws on a new minor power for whatever she can get.

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Depending on how big and advanced the Hell is, we may be the new super power on the block rather than a minor power.

It may be a question of how much Mab is paying us in reparations rather than the opposite.

thats fair fringe horror the entire world could be made real the instant molly gets the charm with a story inspired by her soul and the exaltation, or its achronal, or none of those. If find it rather likely its the first or the second though since a world can't really just naturally form the way most of our plans suggest.

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One thing to note is that in WoD it's by no means unknown for powerful entities to have their own realms that are basically extensions of themselves in the spirit world. Some of those have inhabitants that seem to be humans.

Indeed, every sapient creature apparently has their own (usually tiny) personal spirit realm. That's what dream walkers grow their demenses from.

An Infernal's Hell is probably that, relocated from Maya to Yomi and greatly strengthened (just as mages can move their demesnes to the Middle Umbra to make new Mythic Realms they're the god of).