Green Flame Rising (Exalted vs Dresden Files)

1)The White Council generally consider non-consensual mind magic to be corruptive to the user and the used.

However. Whether or not they consider specific instances to be a violation, or what form of violation, is very much a "it depends".
This is just my speculation, but I have doubts that every wizard who got mindscrewed by Peabody gave consent, or could give consent to mental examination and treatment.

Note that it appears to be entirely legal to use such magic on non-mortals. As long as the Council does not currently have you on probation, that is.

Furthermore, see Dresden when Mab went into his head and removed all memory of fire magic in Small Favor to save him from Summer's hitters; he was terrified of his vulnerability, but he didnt appear to equate it with magical rape. Similarly, when he ordered Bob to forget his time with Kemmler in Dead Beat, he didnt consider that to be a violation of Bob's personhood.

Or when he attempted to make that lawyer forget getting mindscrewed by Madison Raith in Turn Coat; it was very much an act of mercy, and allowed by White Council rules, but it was as nonconsensual as Molly geasing Rosie and Nelson into forswearing drug abuse for their own good.


===
2)That appears to depend on what kind of mental intervention happened.
Dresden's subconscious kept dropping hints to people around him after Mab whammied him that something was off.
Luccio's did not. The Senior Council and the junior Wardens never even noticed they were adjusted.


===
3)With regards to Molly in particular? Not to minimize the severity of what she did, but intentions do matter.

None of this was to Molly's benefit. She gained no personal benefit from acting.
She could very much have turned her back and walked away when persuasion didnt work, and had reason to; Rose slept with her then boyfriend when both of them were under the influence of drugs, and thats where the pregnancy is from.

Most friendships would have ended at the sleeping with boyfriend bit, without getting as far as "Im pregnant now, and still using drugs".

At her first meeting with Dresden, Rosie makes it clear she wants to stop. She may be under no obligation to show gratitutde, but its an entirely valid response for Rosanna Marcella to go "thank you" instead of "fuck you" and genuinely mean it, instead of doing it because Molly's her only independent lifeline.

Its also entirely plausible for her to go "fuck you" and cut Molly out of her life, of course.


===
The themes seemed to be more along the "path to hell and good intentions" theme, a motif that's repeated in the same book with her mother Charity's plotline with regards to Molly.

That said?
Im still an advocate of remembering we have unfinished business with her ex Nelson.
And the other survivor of the Splattercon attack.


I dont agree. But I'll shelve it for the moment.


Thank you for the citation.
Second point still stands; Usum is extrapolating from his experience with other creatures, and knows nothing about naagloshii in particular.



This certainly wont come back as an issue in the future at all.


Wikipedia suggests Bachelors Grove was used as a cemetery since at least 1838, with the last known burial being 1989.
Minimum hundred and fifty years of ghosts spanning two centuries, most of whom would have had radically different ideas of both funeral custom and celebrations.

Do as you will.


@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Does Rosie's mother know who the father of the child is?
Did she just assume its the dead boyfriend?
Doesnt wamt to know the details? Or did she ask and Rosie lied about it?

Because somehow, her behavior doesnt strike me as someone who knows that her daughter is pregnant from sleeping with her best friend's then boyfriend.
It is worth remembering that while magic corruption making it easier and easier to do things with magic once you start doing them with magic is a thing, the laws themselves are set by and enforced by men. The lines ARE arbitrary, and it's not that doing stuff with magic doesn't make it easier to do that stuff with magic in the future, but rather than the White Council only chooses to make specific acts illegal.

All magic changes the person who does it. It's just that in the opinion of the White Council, who are wizards, changing to be more willing to kill fae and vampires with magic isn't a bad thing so long as there is a hard line preventing it from spilling over to killing humans.
 
1)The White Council generally consider non-consensual mind magic to be corruptive to the user and the used.

However. Whether or not they consider specific instances to be a violation, or what form of violation, is very much a "it depends".
This is just my speculation, but I have doubts that every wizard who got mindscrewed by Peabody gave consent, or could give consent to mental examination and treatment.

Note that it appears to be entirely legal to use such magic on non-mortals. As long as the Council does not currently have you on probation, that is.

Furthermore, see Dresden when Mab went into his head and removed all memory of fire magic in Small Favor to save him from Summer's hitters; he was terrified of his vulnerability, but he didnt appear to equate it with magical rape. Similarly, when he ordered Bob to forget his time with Kemmler in Dead Beat, he didnt consider that to be a violation of Bob's personhood.

Or when he attempted to make that lawyer forget getting mindscrewed by Madison Raith in Turn Coat; it was very much an act of mercy, and allowed by White Council rules, but it was as nonconsensual as Molly geasing Rosie and Nelson into forswearing drug abuse for their own good.


===
2)That appears to depend on what kind of mental intervention happened.
Dresden's subconscious kept dropping hints to people around him after Mab whammied him that something was off.
Luccio's did not. The Senior Council and the junior Wardens never even noticed they were adjusted.


===
3)With regards to Molly in particular? Not to minimize the severity of what she did, but intentions do matter.

None of this was to Molly's benefit. She gained no personal benefit from acting.
She could very much have turned her back and walked away when persuasion didnt work, and had reason to; Rose slept with her then boyfriend when both of them were under the influence of drugs, and thats where the pregnancy is from.

Most friendships would have ended at the sleeping with boyfriend bit, without getting as far as "Im pregnant now, and still using drugs".

At her first meeting with Dresden, Rosie makes it clear she wants to stop. She may be under no obligation to show gratitutde, but its an entirely valid response for Rosanna Marcella to go "thank you" instead of "fuck you" and genuinely mean it, instead of doing it because Molly's her only independent lifeline.

Its also entirely plausible for her to go "fuck you" and cut Molly out of her life, of course.


===
The themes seemed to be more along the "path to hell and good intentions" theme, a motif that's repeated in the same book with her mother Charity's plotline with regards to Molly.

That said?
Im still an advocate of remembering we have unfinished business with her ex Nelson.
And the other survivor of the Splattercon attack.


I dont agree. But I'll shelve it for the moment.


Thank you for the citation.
Second point still stands; Usum is extrapolating from his experience with other creatures, and knows nothing about naagloshii in particular.



This certainly wont come back as an issue in the future at all.


Wikipedia suggests Bachelors Grove was used as a cemetery since at least 1838, with the last known burial being 1989.
Minimum hundred and fifty years of ghosts spanning two centuries, most of whom would have had radically different ideas of both funeral custom and celebrations.

Do as you will.


@DragonParadox
QUESTION
Does Rosie's mother know who the father of the child is?
Did she just assume its the dead boyfriend?
Doesnt wamt to know the details? Or did she ask and Rosie lied about it?

Because somehow, her behavior doesnt strike me as someone who knows that her daughter is pregnant from sleeping with her best friend's then boyfriend.
Fair point about the examinations, there is some context here that makes it a less than perfect mapping. That said, the white council not caring about what you do to nonhumans as long as it isn't a threat to the world, and humans dehumanizing the literally inhuman shouldn't be a surprise.

White vampires are frightfully human for all their power, and strictly by the book as the white council writes it you can do whatever you want to them as long as it doesn't cause them issues.

Same with ghouls. Harry start torturing one to death in front of a number of wardens, and does execute it with fire, and didn't even get a reprimand.

I'd also like to point out that Dresden seemed to feel pretty violated in that scene where he found out about the mind magic, he just had to bull through it because of the case then carefully avoided the topic later. You could treat that as shrugging it off, but it always read to me like shying away from touching a hot stove. It was just another element of his backlog of trauma.

Bob is a bad example for your argument here, because that was the most explicit case mental manipulation directly messing with personhood in the series. Bob directly explains that his knowledge isn't just his power, it's part of his way of being and that forgetting changes who he is.

Harry just didn't care about that, though in fairness to him he heard in that same scene that Bob wanted the changes he was imposing. The consent and active desire for the process does matter here. I was being imprecise with my initial comment, I should have said forced mind magic or something instead of mind magic as a whole.

That also hits stuff like Harry erasing trauma. Technically it's the same category, but the metaphor isn't perfect. He was essentially proving necessary medical care to people to incapacitated to consent. Medical experts are allowed to act without explicit consent in cases like that, as long as what they're doing is necessary to get you to the point where you can make decisions again.

Molly's case wasn't like that at all. You can clam her motives altruistic, but I don't think they were quite as pure as that and the effect of what she did wasn't the same. She wasn't soothing anything and she didn't have consent for the changes.

She didn't get anything material out of it, but she did (or least she was trying to) get them to resolve the clusterfuck they were in the way she wanted them to.

I don't expect Rosie to tell Molly to take a hike, but I think that's more about dependency than because she'd appreciate what was done to her.
 
Only way Molly was going to manage to bring a partner was if we could somehow bring Dresden.
 
Winning Vote
Adhoc vote count started by DragonParadox on Feb 10, 2023 at 7:06 AM, finished with 48 posts and 12 votes.

  • [X] Plan united front
    -[X] Call Lydia, offer to make her a dress and maybe some jewelry for the dance
    --[X] If she already has a dress, ask her to send a photo, so you'll be coordinated. She's the hostess of the event, you don't want to outshine her
    --[X] If she agrees, call her over, and do an all-nighter, going all out with your charms (excellencies, BSM, WHWH, CCC, ATB for quality control, etc). Have Lydia participate in crafting adding her own excellencies
    --[X] If Lydia doesn't have a dress selected, then go with the following: The foundation of the outfit is a classic sleek but flowy and not restrictive sleeveless silk dress dyed a bright emerald green. It is classic in that understated elegance way that never goes out of style. But a dress alone does not an outfit make. Alongside the dress comes jewelry, specifically cascade of small brass and emerald teardrop earrings that dangle from the multiple ear piercings that Molly refuses to hide. Additionally her left arm is adorned by a brass and emerald bracelet. Three bands of brass twist around her wrist with six large perfectly clear dark green emeralds appear almost black save for when they catch the light and flash brilliantly green. Her left hand also bares two thick rings, one on pinky and one on index, with emeralds of similar quality. Her right hand and arm are bare. Without really thinking about it the outfit is designed with deliberate asymmetry so that while it looks gorgeous all the time, it is most complete and balanced when Molly has sword in hand, the lines of the brass and the flashing green emeralds a mundane counterpart to her eldritch blade. Also accompanying the dress is a green silk clutch with brass hardware attached to a thin green silk shoulder strap, because for however much elegance Molly has come to appreciate she is still a practical girl and practical girls carry clutches.
    -[X] STUNT: "Lydia, hi! So, I wanted to ask - do you have an outfit prepared? I thought that we should go with something coordinated, to show my support to you as the hostess, and so we would look better together. I planned to make my own outfit and jewelry using my magic, and I would be happy to also do the same for you. Do you have time to come over and help me with crafting, or are you busy preparing the dance? I promise Daniel won't get to see you in your dress before the dance" you say, even as the arcane machinery around you lowers the temperature in the room and condenses blocks of ice to trigger your powers.
    [X] There are lots of people from lots of history in attendance. This calls for classics. The foundation of the outfit is a classic sleek but flowy and not restrictive sleeveless silk dress dyed a bright emerald green. It is classic in that understated elegance way that never goes out of style. But a dress alone does not an outfit make. Alongside the dress comes jewelry, specifically cascade of small brass and emerald teardrop earrings that dangle from the multiple ear piercings that Molly refuses to hide. Additionally her left arm is adorned by a brass and emerald bracelet. Three bands of brass twist around her wrist with six large perfectly clear dark green emeralds appear almost black save for when they catch the light and flash brilliantly green. Her left hand also bares two thick rings, one on pinky and one on index, with emeralds of similar quality. Her right hand and arm are bare. Without really thinking about it the outfit is designed with deliberate asymmetry so that while it looks gorgeous all the time, it is most complete and balanced when Molly has sword in hand, the lines of the brass and the flashing green emeralds a mundane counterpart to her eldritch blade. Also accompanying the dress is a green silk clutch with brass hardware attached to a thin green silk shoulder strap, because for however much elegance Molly has come to appreciate she is still a practical girl and practical girls carry clutches.
    [X] Go for the whole dark, magnificent lady look, but add something very cutsy and obvious as well. You're thinking a dark slinky dress, kick ass boots, and perhaps a nice flower decoration in your hair. Have some fun with it if you can, and over the top is a must!
    [X] Dress as a devil ;)
 
Arc 5 Post 35: Of Brass and Silver
Of Brass and Silver

29th of September 2006 A.D.

The last time you had tried your hand at dress-making you had been ten, trying to get one of a long suffering barbie into an approximation of the lacy white Lucy dress from Bran Stoker's Dracula, she ended up looking more like a mummy by way of using up way too many nice handkerchiefs. To this day you don't know why mom had given you all those to play with when you asked. This time around you're a lot more well prepared and not just with the freezing warehouse with the door rigged to explode if you get out of here before you're done...

"Isn't this a little...?" Lydia asks looking down at the bolts of silk emerald and azure blue strewn across the table, alongside costume jewlry in silver and brass, emeralds and sapphires flashing like secretive eyes among a dragon's coils.

"Crazy?" you offer with a laugh

"Super-villan-y?" she finishes, at your surprised look she adds. "What? I read comic books too, nothing wrong with them. Plus the best manuscripts back in the day were the illuminated ones, if you showed a tenth century scholar a comic book they would think it is the pride of Prester John's library or the like."

"I would love to hear you make that argument to Ms Roberts, that's my English teacher, I think she would have the vapors at the thought of comic books being confused for high art."

"Yeah," she smiles, looking a little wistful, maybe never had the experience of school with an English teacher who was not her tutor. "Ooh..."

Six hours and around a dozen drawn ideas crumpled and discarded later you have them. Lydia's dress is square cut and sweeping like a wind upon the shore, a cut that would not be out of place in the court of the Medici in centuries past, though they would surely raise an eyebrow at seeing the marks of countless feathers in countless shades of blue upon them like shadows that shift with every motion and more than an eyebrow would be raised to know that among the pattern is woven nine times the feather of Ma'at against which the hearts of the dead are weighed. A dozen times and more as sow the patterns into silk you feel you feel the prick of power almost-there. Alas when you try to grasp it the magic slips between your fingers, but the beauty remains, if you do say so yourself. Around her waist is belted a silver ouroboros, the serpent devouring its tail, its eyes sapphire-bright. The only thing you did not make is the silver lotus flower hung upon a silver chain so fine it almost vanishes from sight even under the buzzing blight.

Lydia follows your gaze. "That used to be my mother's, like the ankh I wore when we first met, she had a thing for Egypt."

Had not has, you note, but you could have guessed that already just from her absence. Lydia obviously isn't keen to talk about it more so you let the matter drop and move on to your own... dress. Really it should have felt like a costume, like something you put on for Halloween but...

The foundation of the outfit is a classic sleek but flowy and not restrictive sleeveless silk dress dyed a bright emerald green. It is classic in that understated elegance way that never goes out of style. But a dress alone does not an outfit make. Alongside the dress comes jewelry, specifically cascade of small brass and emerald teardrop earrings that dangle from the multiple ear piercings that Molly refuses to hide. Additionally her left arm is adorned by a brass and emerald bracelet.

It feels right in the same way your armor does, like something you had seen long ago in a window and yearned for.

Three bands of brass twist around her wrist with six large perfectly clear dark green emeralds appear almost black save for when they catch the light and flash brilliantly green. Her left hand also bares two thick rings, one on pinky and one on index, with emeralds of similar quality. Her right hand and arm are bare.

Something you had worn an age ago.

Almost you surprise yourself when you realize what is missing, when you draw a sword of eldritch brass and green flame wjich enthrones itself upon the face of every emerald. With your free hand you heft a green silk clutch with with brass hardware attached to a thin green silk strap onto your other shoulder. If Lydia is a judge then you are... what? A warrior? A champion? A queen, Usum says with surety you do not feel.

"How do I look?" you ask nervously.

"You know how they said of Helen that her beauty launched a thousand ships? You look like you would launch them and lead them both," she answers after a moment.

Flattered you return the compliment, but it is not from you that she is looking for such things. When you drive up to the front door at home to pick up Daniel he just sort of stands there, starting... possibly not breathing for a little bit as Lydia gets out of the car to greet him. You'd say she is satisfied with my work, you think amused, not that it should spare Daniel from your sisterly attentions: "You are supposed to complement the girl lunkhead."

"Words cannot encompass the joy of the hour or the beauty of the company," he manages only a little rushed. Pretty decent save, you have to admit. The suit and tie are nice as well, just not up to your present standard of craftsmanship.

***​

The way to Bachelor's Grove is along a quiet road bordered left and fight by quiet stands of oak and hickory that had been here half a century and more until you come to a break in the woods where a thin mist is already coiling around the roots of the trees seeming almost to reach out to embrace Lydia when she steps upon it. What exactly Detective Stallings thinks of the three of you showing up you can't say for sure as he seems to be inordinately focused on the big red sign that reads Forest Preserve Bachelor's Grove Woods.

Lydia clears her throat: "The dead aren't going to hurt you, they aren't angry or upset, they are just eager to dance in the moonlight. You can come in and say hello if you like, I'll introduce you."

Alas that does not seem to be as reassuring as Lydia had intended it to be.

"I'm alright out here," he manages to get out before radioing in that 'the thing's about to start' to his colleagues. You wave goodbye and walk upon the bramble path until you come to the hill in the midst of the narrow patch of woodland. Here hearth aster blooms white among the worn grave stones, seeming all the more forlorn for all the space between them where the dead had been carried off to some other place when the cemetery had closed. Do they resent it you wonder, the troubling of their rest, or do they instead rejoice that their kin would rather have them nearer.

The fog is thicker here, a roiling mantle that here hides a name upon a grave stone, there reveals a year. There are no marble angels here and yet if one looks close enough there are already shadows at the edge of sight, drawing nearer. Is that the sound of music on the breeze... Doubtless soon it would be.

What do you do at the spectral dance?

Choose Two
[] Converse with the dead, maybe they have some insight about...
-[] The Skinwalker
-[] Mortimer Lindquist
-[] The doings of the White Court

[] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests

[] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them


OOC: Poor Daniel did not know what hit him.
 
[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them
 
[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them
 
So... chances are Lydia's mother was/is a mummy? In any case, I keep suspecting that Lydia is not a simple demigod.

Also, @DragonParadox , not that it matters, but shouldn't the dress rolls be against dc5? 9 -3 for ccc, and -1 for BSM.

[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them
-[X] Empathy excellency

Actually, since the cops are working for us right now, should it be Leadership excellency?
 
[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them


Probably not a good idea to start with fishing for information.
 
Talking about the skinwalker seems gauche at a party. Though I wonder which the dead would prefer: small talk that is pleasant but shallow, or a mortal interested in their lives even though talking about the White Court at a party might be a bit of a downer.
 
[x] Converse with the dead, maybe they have some insight about...
-[x] Mortimer Lindquist
[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
 
So, we definitely should make our family bespoke clothes. Suits for males, dresses (if not as extravagant as ours is) for females. And start looking at home improvements in general.
 
[x] Converse with the dead, maybe they have some insight about...
-[x] Mortimer Lindquist

Incidentally I have started listening to a podcast for a Exalted vs World of Darkness game City of the Bull God. Pretty cool. Also it struck me just how amazingly free with their essanse they could afford to be as a group. After all as a group despite all being essence 1 their collective pool dwarfs Molly and many essence recovery urges would apply to everyone in the group at the same time. After all they all learn a secret or all win a fight.

Also apparently the assumption in world of darkness is that Mortals that don't have any dealings with the supernatural average willpower 3. Which surprised me. I guess Dresden files mortals are made of tougher stuff.
So, we definitely should make our family bespoke clothes. Suits for males, dresses (if not as extravagant as ours is) for females. And start looking at home improvements in general.

We can likely improve our family's clothing, but I don't know just how much improvement we can manage to make to the house of our Dad Mikelle Carpenter which he has been building with love for years. Ok maybe we can improve it we are Exalted and can go beyond the humanly possible, but it doesn't seem like the best use of our efforts verse improving undertown or really anywhere else. We work best in places of desolation and those are the places that generally need the help more.
 
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We can likely improve our family's clothing, but I don't know just how much improvement we can manage to make to the house of our Dad Mikelle Carpenter which he has been building with love for years. Ok maybe we can improve it we are Exalted and can go beyond the humanly possible, but it doesn't seem like the best use of our efforts verse improving undertown or really anywhere else. We work best in places of desolation and those are the places that generally need the help more.
At the very least I strongly favor gifting Michael exalted grade work tools. It empathizes that he's not just The Fist of God, and let's him achieve new heights in his chosen craft.
 
At the very least I strongly favor gifting Michael exalted grade work tools. It empathizes that he's not just The Fist of God, and let's him achieve new heights in his chosen craft.
Oh certainly that. It would make a great father's day/birthday/Christmas present. Also it actually helps him instead of just overshadowing him.

Although we don't actually have the charm to make Exalted grade tools yet. Just beyond the peak of mortal.
 
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[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them
-[X] Empathy excellency
 
I don't want to do small talk it might be somewhat optimal, but it seems like such a boring update.
 
[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them
 
I don't want to do small talk it might be somewhat optimal, but it seems like such a boring update.
I like these quiet, slice-of-supernatural-life chapters. They show how not everything happening on that side of existence is innately awful or predatory, and I always appreciate good worldbuilding.
 
[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them
-[X] Empathy excellency
 
Daniel he just sort of stands there, starting... possibly not breathing for a little bit as Lydia gets out of the car to greet him. You'd say she is satisfied with my work, you think amused, not that it should spare Daniel from your sisterly attentions: "You are supposed to complement the girl lunkhead."

"Words cannot encompass the joy of the hour or the beauty of the company," he manages only a little rushed. Pretty decent save, you have to admit. The suit and tie are nice as well, just not up to your present standard of craftsmanship.
Sewn at collar, where the tag would be on clothes off the rack, is embroidered the name of the clothing line: Rigor Mortis Per Partes. :V

Daniel trying to be articulate... he's lucky he has that Carpenter Willpower
7 willpower at 16 years old? This whole family is basically America's strategic stubbornness reserve.

So, we definitely should make our family bespoke clothes. Suits for males, dresses (if not as extravagant as ours is) for females. And start looking at home improvements in general.
When could they use them though? Legendary grade clothing is sort of noticeable, and they aren't exactly the sort of people who have access to that quality of tailor.

[X] Seek to make yourself pleasant company, make smalltalk with the other guests
[X] Try to get one of the cops to participate, it's good practice for them
-[X] Empathy excellency
 
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