I had a similar issue: I couldn't really figure out what 3E was supposed to be. There are a lot of systems with apparently contradictory design philosophies: Lore let's you make declarations about the world, which is very narrative. Craft is pretty much the opposite. The mechanics of Stunts imply some kind of narrative, rule-of-cool thing going on. But then it has an extremely complicated combat engine with a ton of moving parts. It's supposed to be a game about ressurgent God-Kings, and yet there are no rules for the King part of that. For a game where actions are supposed to have consequences, there are no rules (or even good setting stuff) on explaining what those consequences should be.

Like, after reading it, I wasn't sure if the GM's job was to be a collaborative storyteller with the PCs, their antagonist, or just a referee, because given subsystems seem to have different interpretations of what the GM is supposed to be doing.

I don't think there is any one way that 3E was meant to be played, because I suspect it was designed piecemeal, with discrete subsystems written without much thought for how they fit together.
Well, my guess is that the lack of the 'kings' rules is because this isn't considered an important focus of God-Kings Campaigns. I mean, take a look at Gilgamesh. The focus doesn't seem to be on the accounting and on what exactly he did in order to make his realm prosper.
Rule-of-cool and minor narrative editing seem to be a part of Exalted at least since 2.0 (not as well-versed in 1e), but 3e seems to have expanded on it with the likes of Lore stuff and Dual Magnus Prana. I actually like the idea of Charms that directly interact with the world instead of just providing numerical bonuses; I find them interesting even if slightly eldritch.
Likewise, I'm intrigued by the "Charms are not discreet things characters have, they're just game-mechanical abstraction of them being the chosen heroes of the Sun" and "a Charm being described in a book does not necessarily mean that every NPC who meets the prerequisites has it". It seems to me that the intent of those is to cut down on the things like "all Deathlords will have Creation-Obliterating Roundhouse Kicks" and the overall 'EvEness' of the world. And also to make PvE feel more like PvE and less like PvP (compared to 2.0).

But those are just small bits of understanding, and I have an impression that I don't get the big picture / grand vision (add quotes if you're feeling sarcastic).
 
Depends on what level of PC you're talking about. Low level, 3.5 was way easier to GM, because NPCs didn't have as many powers, there were fewer things overall to keep track of, and things were shorter, making it easier to fudge things. High level you're probably right, but high level D&D was so completely broken in 3.5 I'm not sure how to evaluate the ease or difficulty of GMing.

And things like the lack of consistency or coherency in class design aren't really relevant if you just wanted to make a character and play: you weren't going to be interacting with the rest of the system, so the random weirdness you needed to learn was fairly small, just the bits that effected your own class. Someone who wanted to play a mechanically simple class could easily just pick up a fighter or barbarian, while someone who wanted something more meaty could go for a caster. That opt-in was missing from 4E, where every class was pretty complicated. Also missing from Exalted, but that's a different subject.
Even then you're not right. I mean, sure, a D&D 3.5 character without any spells has less powers to keep track off. But the 3.5-rules themselves contain lots of special cases and weird interactions that occur just on account of completely mundane tasks. 4E just uses a few general systems for everything, with barely any special cases and interactions.

And talking about 3.5 class design without any spells is...rather disingenuous. Because at the very least monsters will have them, and players and GM will interact with those. D&D 3.5 without spellcasters and monsters....why are you even playing that game? Never mind all the interaction with feats and such that could be just as complicated as charm-interactions in Exalted.
D&D 4E on the other hand had pretty straight-forward powers for the most part that were very clearly written and easy to adjudicate as a GM.

/anyway, lets not get too sidetracked
 
I mean, take a look at Gilgamesh. The focus doesn't seem to be on the accounting and on what exactly he did in order to make his realm prosper.
The problem is that the game seems to want it both ways. It wants to be a game where economics and underlying systems are the real problem, where just taking over a city by force of arms doesn't solve the real problems, and where the Guild is a legitimate threat, but it doesn't want to actually provide any of the frameworks needed to have a GM manage any of that.

There was a thread on RPG.net where Stephenls was talking about the Hamilton musical, and how he was glad that 3E didn't have some abstracted management system because it wouldn't capture the experience of arguing about nationalizing the state debt, etc. He didn't really seem to consider the fact that, without a system, that conversation would never even happen at most tables, because neither the PCs nor the GM are knowledgable enough about economics to have any idea what such a plan would actually do, and without a system, there's really no reason to engage in that at all, because there's no way of assigning meaningful consequences to the actions players take.
 
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There was a thread on RPG.net where Stephenls was talking about the Hamilton musical, and how he was glad that 3E didn't have some abstracted management system because it wouldn't capture the experience of arguing about nationalizing the state debt, etc. He didn't really seem to consider the fact that, without a system, that conversation would never even happen at most tables, because neither the PCs nor the GM are knowledgable enough about economics to have any idea what such a plan would actually do, and without a system, there's really no reason to engage in that at all, because there's no way of assigning meaningful consequences to the actions players take.
The ideal state of Ex3 seems to be opening the book and imagining all the cool potential things you could do with it, skimming a few Charms, then setting it back on the shelf so you can get into another forum argument about the proper thematic space of Lunars.

That the writers of the book share in this viewpoint is not very surprising in the long run.
 
Like, after reading it, I wasn't sure if the GM's job was to be a collaborative storyteller with the PCs, their antagonist, or just a referee, because given subsystems seem to have different interpretations of what the GM is supposed to be doing.
I don't think Holden or Morke ever sat down and wrote down their Exalted 3e Bible with an actual design document outlining how and why they were going to do what they did. The book feels way too unpolished to be the product of anything but unfocused energy.

I do think they basically rejected the idea that this question you've proposed was meaningful or helpful, though. Even if they'd had an actual editor, I don't think that'd have been "clarified."

The design philosophy of Exalted 3e would probably be best described as "every subsystem should feel qualitatively different." Social interaction doesn't resemble combat, craft isn't anything like sorcerous workings, etc. This also applies to Charmsets: Melee and Brawl feel different, Single Point is very distinct, Dodge versus Resistance, Presence versus Socialize, etc.

It's a very crunch-focused system, which comes to the table with an understanding that universal resolution mechanics (beyond dice/successes) aren't what it wants to do. Each subsystem is an attempt to create a fairly rigorous set of mechanics that cover most of what needs to be covered (e.g. you have stuff like Go To Ground and Hold At Bay), with the various goals that one typically expects from RPG subsystems (results you can parse quickly, systems that don't break down under a light breeze, mechanics that don't result in weird backwards behavior, etc). If there was a guiding principle of design, it was that there shouldn't be such a guiding principle of design: the "texture" of Investigation and Awareness should be different.
 
I don't think there is any one way that 3E was meant to be played, because I suspect it was designed piecemeal, with discrete subsystems written without much thought for how they fit together.

Played piecemeal with ad hoc and post hoc rationalizations and exceptions and house rules crafted on the fly to address situations is, in fact, a playstyle. And it was a very popular playstyle for decades. Just look at every Fantasy Heartbreaker rules/setting ever for an example.
 
The problem is that the game seems to want it both ways. It wants to be a game where economics and underlying systems are the real problem, where just taking over a city by force of arms doesn't solve the real problems, and where the Guild is a legitimate threat, but it doesn't want to actually provide any of the frameworks needed to have a GM manage any of that.

There was a thread on RPG.net where Stephenls was talking about the Hamilton musical, and how he was glad that 3E didn't have some abstracted management system because it wouldn't capture the experience of arguing about nationalizing the state debt, etc. He didn't really seem to consider the fact that, without a system, that conversation would never even happen at most tables, because neither the PCs nor the GM are knowledgable enough about economics to have any idea what such a plan would actually do, and without a system, there's really no reason to engage in that at all, because there's no way of assigning meaningful consequences to the actions players take.
Yeah, wanting things both ways is something that Exalted seems prone to, even in the previous edition(s).
As for the players and the GM not being knowledgeable enough . . . Well, I think that a system can't help with that. IME, if people are not knowledgeable enough for the things a system emulates, they just stare at it glazy-eyed, until they end up internalizing it as just a gamist thing; if they're more knowledgeable than that, they'll say the system is inadequate; if they disagree with the knowledge based on which the subsystem was built (whether rightly or wrongly), they too will be disappointed. Sure, having a subsystem is cool, but the question is largely whether the reward is worth the effort put into creating one. 1e didn't have a mass combat system, nor an organization-running system, nor a mass social combat system, and yet the complaint that 1e is worse of for this lack seems to be a rare one. (Similarly, the XP/BP split is part of the classic strain of Storyteller/WoD-derived systems, but it's 3e that gets flak for it.)

As a GM, I run GURPS, which has lots and lots of dedicated subsystems for all sorts of situations. Mass Combat? Got one. Spaceship/vehicle construction? Yep. Aerial dogfights? Sure! Inventing new technologies? Yes, and I am in fact using it over the last couple sessions. Managing organizations? Here it is (though I don't quite agree with the way it's written). Detailed rules for how effective study is depending on various factors? There's a PDF for it. That's with a library of something like 10-50 PDFs, typically 32-300 pages each, depending on what is needed.
And yet, I keep running into questions that aren't covered by the system, such as how cheap should electrical power be given such-and-such cost and efficiency of power plants, how will the political leaders of neighbour-states react to such-and-such military event, how did the evolution of such-and-such race go and what traits did this encourage. All these things can be made into parts of gameable subsystems; whether it would be desirable for a given campaign and party is hard to predict. For instance, in the Exalted campaign I played in, the GM (and other players) steered clear of anything that has to do with more than six people acting at a time (mass/social mass combat, organization-running, empire-building, trade etc.), focusing on the individual-scale adventuring; meanwhile, I was saddened by such avoidance, and was looking forward to Mass Combat and using Taboo-Inflicting Diatribe and Bureau-Rectifying Stick to fix city-scale problems (the two were related) and overall making an army/empire. The GM also didn't exactly like the idea of consequences being dictated by a gameable subsystem, while I would be totally okay with it.

So . . . I guess this leads somewhere. This approach to subsystems and their absence, that is. Just not quite sure where to. Probably in the direction of more individual-scale heroism, I guess?
 
1e didn't have a mass combat system, nor an organization-running system, nor a mass social combat system, and yet the complaint that 1e is worse of for this lack seems to be a rare one. (Similarly, the XP/BP split is part of the classic strain of Storyteller/WoD-derived systems, but it's 3e that gets flak for it.)
It's kinda late to criticize 1e though. 3e gets flak for it for continuing the shitty BP/XP tradition, but 1e is more than a decade old. Its not immune to criticism, but it's kinda useless to criticize it since no one cares that it's bad anymore. Everyone who was developing it has moved onto other projects. 3e gets all the flak because it seems to have learned very little from the mistakes of 1e and 2e.
 
Man, I fucking love "the rules themselves." A big part of my appreciation for Ex3 is the tactical aspect of combat

I'm glad you're having fun! But it's not the same as the rules being inherently fun. This is an argument of aesthetics, how they make you think and feel.

Take Wh40k and Orks. They have a lot of randomness in their mechanics, even moreso than normal. Lots of 'roll a d6 to see what your weapon or power does'. Most of the other armies/mechanics are 'Roll to see if it passes, fails or fails explosively'.

A lot of people find that fun, that anticipation of waiting to see what your ork will do, will it explode,will it do something amusing. That feeling, both in just reading the book and seeing it in play is fun.

You like the tactical aspects of 3e, you like what it allows or enables. I'm trying to get across that while your experience is not unique, it is not guaranteed, and it is actually very very difficult to write a phrase of mechanical language that is inherently fun. Fun happens around rules. Rules are a structure, not a formula for entertainment.

Even after reading the comments of people who play 3e, some comments by Holden in argument threads (but only a few, as these things spin out of control fast), and trying to read through 3e (admittedly I ran out of interest fast due to various external reasons), I still can't figure out what the Holdeanian style is.

As far as I can tell, the Holden style is 'Roll a pool and make something up'. I've noticed in my admittedly limited review of the 3e book that Difficulties are less and less apparent throughout the base mechanics. Now this I admit I might be completely wrong, but there's just not a lot of explanation going for what your results mean outside of Charms.

I had a similar issue: I couldn't really figure out what 3E was supposed to be.

Quoting for emphasis and agreement.

Still hoping to hear what gave you the idea that Solars will be able to stomp everyone at everything this time around.

Speaking from my experience in interacting with Holden and Hatewheel, the charms they've written or approved of over the years and so on? That's what's giving me my impression of how they interpret the Solar design ideology.

It's sadly lost on the old WW forums, but Holden told me directly that if I ran a Lunar Great Contagion game, I could not have my PCs 'cure' the Great Contagion. I knew even then that Lunars could not get charms to do it, which is a thematic statement for Solars yes. What he largely ignored was the idea of building a campaign around the search for a cure.

This is the same person who decided that in 2nd edition Alchemicals, the easiest way to save Autochthon is to get a Solar to cure him. It's the only one that has any mehcanical support.
 
A high number of dots in the Terrible PR Specialty laughs at coherent logic/sense.
I could have done a better job. No, seriously, I'm actually trained in PR and Marketing. I actually know what I'm on about and they shouldn't have been let near a keyboard without some overtly critical asshole checking each and every post for the maximum amount of PR gain. A lot of flak they got could have been avoided that way; an example that would have to be the whole sex-charm flare up. That could have all been avoided, along with the hit to their reputation, if they'd simply said that they'd give the charm another look over. But no, they got defensive, they took the criticisms of their design as an insult. And things exploded from there.
This is the same person who decided that in 2nd edition Alchemicals, the easiest way to save Autochthon is to get a Solar to cure him. It's the only one that has any mehcanical support.
Ugghhh... I hate that. It just takes away so much from the Alchemicals story space, no, they can't heal their god. Instead they must rely on a group of Exalted that they may possibly never interact with.
 
Speaking from my experience in interacting with Holden and Hatewheel, the charms they've written or approved of over the years and so on? That's what's giving me my impression of how they interpret the Solar design ideology.

It's sadly lost on the old WW forums, but Holden told me directly that if I ran a Lunar Great Contagion game, I could not have my PCs 'cure' the Great Contagion. I knew even then that Lunars could not get charms to do it, which is a thematic statement for Solars yes. What he largely ignored was the idea of building a campaign around the search for a cure.

This is the same person who decided that in 2nd edition Alchemicals, the easiest way to save Autochthon is to get a Solar to cure him. It's the only one that has any mehcanical support.
Could you further expand on this? There seem to be implications under the surface of these paragraphs, but I'm not sure which of the directions of interpreting them is the most appropriate/intended.

I could have done a better job. No, seriously, I'm actually trained in PR and Marketing. I actually know what I'm on about and they shouldn't have been let near a keyboard without some overtly critical asshole checking each and every post for the maximum amount of PR gain. A lot of flak they got could have been avoided that way; an example that would have to be the whole sex-charm flare up. That could have all been avoided, along with the hit to their reputation, if they'd simply said that they'd give the charm another look over. But no, they got defensive, they took the criticisms of their design as an insult. And things exploded from there.
Hmm. As a client of WW/OPP (non-backer, but one who did buy 3e mostly for inspiration and comparison), I actually sympathise with Holden on that one, even though I agree that he seems to be a suboptimal person to pick for public speaking. He said that consent was implied by the wording/context, and it was good enough. But then people went on to search for precedents in various books regarding use of the word 'lover' to mean 'victim'. If he were to agree with such arguments, I would see this as a sign of weakness. Listening to reasonable criticism is good; pandering to people who pick the worst possible reading of a text and demand changing it isn't.
 
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Could you further expand on this? There seem to be implications under the surface of these paragraphs, but I'm not sure which of the directions of interpreting them is the most appropriate/intended.

Uhm. Basically Holden and Hatewheel have tended to make decisions based on their preferences without making judgements on 'what is healthiest for the game'. They don't 'kill their darlings'. Solars are their darlings.
 
As for the players and the GM not being knowledgeable enough . . . Well, I think that a system can't help with that. IME, if people are not knowledgeable enough for the things a system emulates, they just stare at it glazy-eyed, until they end up internalizing it as just a gamist thing; if they're more knowledgeable than that, they'll say the system is inadequate; if they disagree with the knowledge based on which the subsystem was built (whether rightly or wrongly), they too will be disappointed. Sure, having a subsystem is cool, but the question is largely whether the reward is worth the effort put into creating one. 1e didn't have a mass combat system, nor an organization-running system, nor a mass social combat system, and yet the complaint that 1e is worse of for this lack seems to be a rare one. (Similarly, the XP/BP split is part of the classic strain of Storyteller/WoD-derived systems, but it's 3e that gets flak for it.)
A good system can absolutely help with that, as evidenced by the number of successful management systems in games (Reign being a prime example, and one that the devs were apparently planning to mimic for a while before axing it as too abstracted) that can allow even ignorant players/GMs to have interesting, meaningful, and more than vaguely plausible interactions with organizations around them. You can also just be up front and say, "this is a system designed to make for interesting, meaningful choices, and is not designed to simulate a real organization. If the results disagree with common sense or real world knowledge, ignore the results." Or you can have the system spit of abstractions that need to be interpreted through that lens. This is a hard problem, but not an intractable one. They devs just decided that, when the Reign-based system they had wasn't fitting their vision, it was better to launch a product with no system at all. Whether or not that's a problem is a different issue. For me, it is: pretty much all of my Exalted games have involved ruling at one point or another, and different GMs have had wildly different understandings of how we should interact with the nation/what we could do, to the point where they've all been disappointments.

This is one of the reasons I like Godbound: it actually has a system for this, one that's fun to interact with.
 
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