Right, I think that's rather a big difference from powerless. They're not Exalts anymore. They're the mighty ghosts of beings who were once Exalts. I would be having them manifesting arcanoi reminescent of the Charms they had in life. This is, admittedly, as much fanon as 'powerless', as I don't think this was ever spelled out either. But generally speaking, I think the ghost of a mighty Exalt is going to be super powerful and super crazy. And a high-Essence one is gonna be able to get back their Martial Arts pretty quick, IMO.
It's fanon, yes, because fuck that. Your power is attached to your po. Your po is literally described as "the seat of power". Your hun? Nothing of the sort. The ghost of a mighty Exalt is super powerful and super crazy - the hungry ghost. That's, you know, why they get massive ornate tombs built to keep them happy and stop them from rampaging around murdering things. You're going to have to justify to me why the fuck the hun gets to do the same when it has no reason to get any of that power that came from its Exaltation and other half.

Because, frankly, an Exalt-dominated Underworld is boring as shit. No, I want ancient Exalts to wind up powerless and fearing for their lives as hundreds of Dragonblooded ghosts hunt them down and murder them again, with the only way to regain power to be making deals with the Neverborn or drinking deep of the rivers of Death - and mortals can do that just as easily, even if they never amounted to anything in life and were just a peasant farmer who never discovered the wellspring of determination and willpower and ruthlessness deep inside them.

Otherwise it's just "Underworld: the Ghosting. Exactly like Creation was, but less interesting."
 
By canon they don't end up exactly powerless; they keep their Essence rating and traits. It's just that they've got nothing to do with them, because they lose all their Charms and Celestial Martial Arts and Sorcery, which is a clear majority of what Exalts will spend their time learning.

Yes. In canon, they retain their Essence rating. That's something which is explicitly changed in our underworld reworking. Among other things, it makes the Deathlords more... not exactly sympathetic, but understandable. They were hubristic god-kings. To be lesser than a 200-year dead mortal, to see other ex-Solars trapped by slaving gangs and forged into soulsteel was more than they could take.

As we see it, you're dead. You're not an Exalt any more. You don't have your po - the seat of power. You don't get to keep that power, because the you in life was your hun, po and Exaltation and you're just a fragment with the knowledge and the memories but almost none of the potency.

Try not to die, if you want to keep your power.

(This is why a lot of former Exalts do stupid things like try to become Deathlords or Greater Dead. Most of them fail - but some succeed. And yes, the Deathlords are certainly not just 13 Usurpation-murdered Solars. There's certainly tens of them, possibly hundreds. Some are ex-mortals. It's possible some of them might not have been ever human - the first Deathlords might have been spawned from other Primordial races. Some of them are completely non-functional Whisper-maddened monsters, while others are more sane. There's always the nagging question of how influenced they are by the Neverborn (well, obviously the ones that are utterly mad don't really have many questions, but those things basically are just insane things roaming the Labyrinth). The First And Forsaken Lion, by all indications sealed themselves in their own armour to shut out the Whispers - but some say it was a punishment from their master. And so on.)
 
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Well, no, because mighty ghosts are the centuries-old monsters of the Neverborn's nightmare-realm with powerful Arcanoi to back up their traits. Fresh ghosts, even Exalted ones, don't get that.
'Kay. Out of interest, why? Because from my perspective, they're not Exalted anymore. They don't have any narrative right to that kind of power. They're dead.

I mean, there are ghosts of mighty exalts who are super powerful and super crazy. They're the ones who denied Lethe and were consumed with bitterness at how weak and inconsequential they were compared to their former selves, and spent decades or centuries scratching and clawing for every scrap of forbidden power they could lay hands on to unlive a shadow of their old glory. Many of them failed in this quest, because they were weak and inconsequential compared to their former selves, but others succeeded.
Because Exalts are mighty heroes, one and all, and any ghost with actual power needs the drive to use it. I would give the higher ghost of a heroic mortal extra arcanoi as well, representing the drives and strength they had in life. A mighty Exalt would have had years and decades of power backing it up, would be experienced in the use of Essence. The ghost of an ancient Dawn Caste holding the ghostly version of his Daiklave would find pale shadows of his Charms from life empowering his blade. He is a shadow of his former self, mad with passions, driving by a few overriding goals. But even the shadow of an ancient Exalt is a terrible foe, and one lesser ghosts and young Exalts would be wise to fear.

Of course, such a being is unlikely to take a position of power in the Underworld. What does he care for ruling the dead? His Passions drive him. As they would most maddened undead former Exalts. There are likely some rulers of some places in the Underworld that were once Eclipses or Zeniths or Water Aspects. But I don't think enough Exalts are likely to choose to be undead. It's not exactly a great existence, and I think Exalts, particularly those who consider their Exaltations to be what reincarnates the real them, are more likely to choose Lethe than to hold on long enough to be a ghost.

Additionally. This is just the ones with the drive to become ghosts who die. I think most Exalts with that kinda drive? They're gonna find a way to not die. So it's a rare Exalt indeed who A. lives long enough to have their heroism so deeply ingrained to follow them into death, B. has the drive to hold on despite the urgings of Lethe and C. didn't already find a way to dodge death.
 
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Because Exalts are mighty heroes, one and all, and any ghost with actual power needs the drive to use it. I would give the higher ghost of a heroic mortal extra arcanoi as well, representing the drives and strength they had in life. A mighty Exalt would have had years and decades of power backing it up, would be experienced in the use of Essence. The ghost of an ancient Dawn Caste holding the ghostly version of his Daiklave would find pale shadows of his Charms from life empowering his blade. He is a shadow of his former self, mad with passions, driving by a few overriding goals. But even the shadow of an ancient Exalt is a terrible foe, and one lesser ghosts and young Exalts would be wise to fear.

Of course, such a being is unlikely to take a position of power in the Underworld. What does he care for ruling the dead? His Passions drive him. As they would most maddened undead former Exalts.
... yes. You know what you call a mighty ghost defined by the emotional strength and drive and passion they had in life, which has instinctive knowledge of how to use Essence ingrained into its corpus and which may even retain shadows of the Charms once granted by its Exaltation? A ghost driven mad by its passions, obsessed with a few overriding goals that blot out all others, and which cares nothing for rulership of the dead or positions of power?

You call it an Exalted hungry ghost. Because, you know. The po is the bit where all the depth of emotion lives, and which the Exaltation is tied to.
 
There's also gravegoods to consider. Because those giant, elaborate tombs include lots of sweet artifacts and sacrificed servants etc. Sure, you don't have your charms, but at least you have a ghostly copy of the Daiklave of Conquest and an army of supernaturally loyal servants to kickstart your empire.
Did you change that in your fanon rewrite too?
 
Because Exalts are mighty heroes, one and all, and any ghost with actual power needs the drive to use it. I would give the higher ghost of a heroic mortal extra arcanoi as well, representing the drives and strength they had in life. A mighty Exalt would have had years and decades of power backing it up, would be experienced in the use of Essence. The ghost of an ancient Dawn Caste holding the ghostly version of his Daiklave would find pale shadows of his Charms from life empowering his blade. He is a shadow of his former self, mad with passions, driving by a few overriding goals. But even the shadow of an ancient Exalt is a terrible foe, and one lesser ghosts and young Exalts would be wise to fear.
Again, why? You're talking about how you'd implement ghosts in your vision of the setting, and I'm asking you why you want to do this.

Because as it stands, Exalts are mighty heroes, but the ghosts they leave behind are not. Because ghosts are not Exalted, and as Aleph points out, the cosmology is set up to rather neatly deny the ability to keep shadows of your old power in death. The ghost of the Dawn with flickering remnants of the power she wielded in life? That's her Po, her Hungry Ghost, a mindless spectre of hatred for all life.

The Dawn's mind, her memories and what remains of her sense of self, is the Hun soul, severed from her power as she scratches and crawls through the gravedust of the Underworld, fearful and terrified at how low she has fallen... And perhaps, if she's mad enough to leave a ghost at all, to drink deep of any poisoned chalice of necronightmarish power she can find and rise anew as some terrible rotting mockery of a phoenix.
 
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... yes. You know what you call a mighty ghost defined by the emotional strength and drive and passion they had in life, which has instinctive knowledge of how to use Essence ingrained into its corpus and which may even retain shadows of the Charms once granted by its Exaltation? A ghost driven mad by its passions, obsessed with a few overriding goals that blot out all others, and which cares nothing for rulership of the dead or positions of power?

You call it an Exalted hungry ghost. Because, you know. The po is the bit where all the depth of emotion lives, and which the Exaltation is tied to.
Hungry ghosts are more animal than person. It has all emotion, but no reason. The Hun has all reason, but little drive save that which caused it to refuse Lethe. Those few passions that were enough to drive it on. The Hungry Ghost of a mighty Exalt is absolutely more powerful. The Hun is not powerless, in my vision.

Again, why? You're talking about how you'd implement ghosts in your vision of the setting, and I'm asking you why you want to do this.

Because as it stands, Exalts are mighty heroes, but the ghosts they leave behind are not. Because ghosts are not Exalted, and as Aleph points out, the cosmology is set up to rather neatly deny the ability to keep shadows of your old power in death. The ghost of the Dawn with flickering remnants of the power she wielded in life? That's her Po, her Hungry Ghost, a mindless spectre of hatred for all life.

The Dawn's mind, her memories and what remains of her sense of self, is the Hun soul, severed from her power as she scratches and crawls through the gravedust of the Underworld, fearful and terrified at how low she has fallen... And perhaps, if she's mad enough to leave a ghost at all, to drink deep of any poisoned chalice of necronightmarish power she can find and rise anew as some terrible rotting mockery of a phoenix.
I want good antagonists, and good, sad not-quite-a-person NPCs. I want Necromancers advised by ancient spectres of the long-dead rulers of Creation in the darkness of the Underworld. I want Nephwracks with pale shadows of Exalted Charms supplemented by the twisted dreams of dead titans. I want a Dawn Caste crusader who has spent three long centuries waging his endless crusade against the unholy dead, who doesn't even realize he ever died, so obsessed is he with his holy duty, who can pose a threat to even young Abyssals, with dark mirrors of Charms that cut the dead with wounds that cause them to bleed the Essence that keeps them from Lethe.
 
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And well the rule that it is the Po that maintains the power and not the Hun is old and goes back to the first edition where it was noted that while a ghost might maintain knowledge about martial arts charm they also lack the raw power to use them. Gravegoods are what the ghost of a exalted could use to gain advantage, not losing the source of there power and now using a new and unfamiliar system of essence manipulation.
And if we only use living power as a baseline, well then the underworld is dominated by all these dead dragon blooded.
 
And well the rule that it is the Po that maintains the power and not the Hun is old and goes back to the first edition where it was noted that while a ghost might maintain knowledge about martial arts charm they also lack the raw power to use them. Gravegoods are what the ghost of a exalted could use to gain advantage, not losing the source of there power and now using a new and unfamiliar system of essence manipulation.
And if we only use living power as a baseline, well then the underworld is dominated by all these dead dragon blooded.
I don't believe that most people, or even a large portion of them, even Exalts, choose ghosthood. Enough become ghosts for the underworld to have a good population. Exalted ghosts are very rare. And a lot of them probably have high causualty rates, or get eaten by Nephwracks or serve the Deathlords.
 
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Simply put, I feel like placing the narrative of "death is the great equalizer" at the feet of the Underworld is missing the point.

(the following is basically my own headcanon, take it with a grain of salt)

Death is the great equalizer in Creation - true death. Natural death; the death that fits within the order of the Heavens. Souls pass through the cycle of reincarnation and - absent the odd case of corruption, once rampant in the First Age but now quite rare - are reincarnated with no care or interest for who they were in life. Whatever great deeds you accomplished, whatever power you wrested from the world, whether you were prince or pauper, mortal or Exalt, in the end it all washes away into Lethe and your next life is fairly ascribed: randomly, with no care for your deeds and crimes.

Now, being fair does not make it good. There is plenty of criticism to levy at this lottery of life; it is no wonder the largest religion in Creation claims reincarnation is in some way meritocratic. And this is where the Underworld comes in. The Underworld is the opposite of that order. The Underworld is unnatural, a corruption of the blind, uncaring fairness of the lottery of life - for good or ill. The Underworld is souls clinging on to what they have, refusing to let go. In undeath you can keep shreds of what you had, tatters of your power.

Oh, it's all twisted and lessened and broken and empty, of course. Your mighty Artifacts are now grave goods, your untold wealth depends on the proper sacrifices being made by your living descendents or your cult. But you can have it all - after a fashion. There is no fairness here, no levelling, no equality. Those who were rich in life set up the rites that will grant them wealth and slaves and magical trinkets upon crossing the great threshold. Those who were powerful carry on a shred of their Essence.

In the end, it's the point. The powerful of Creation refuse to let go; they ape the motions of the power they once held, playing at kingship. The hun ghosts of powerful Exalts, strong in Essence, have powers that echo the most iconic abilities they had in life. In a sense, they pretend to still be Exalted. In death they are Princes of the Earth still, and watch - they can conjure pyreflame from their hands, and their armor looks strikingly like pale jade. They pretend that their nature has not truly changed, that the order of the cosmos has not changed.

But they're wrong. It has. They have.

There is a first thing they dread: it is the bones-deep knowledge that the Essence of ghosts can be stoked, can be made greater. There is no fundamental difference between the nature of an Exalt's ghost and that of a mortal's; the Exalt simply has a headstart. For the vast majority of ghosts, that headstart is all they have: they never stoke that fire, and they die as they were reborn, decades or centuries from then. But anyone who survives, who strives, who seeks the way, can reach heights of power just as great as that of the mightiest ghosts; and indeed ghosts and mortals and divinely blessed are found both among the highest ranks of the Underworld. The fact that ambition works is something the privileged dead fear.

There is a second thing they dread: it is that the Underworld has its own dark mockery of Exaltation, and it too can be wrested by one's own design and drive.

These mighty dead are a great congregation of ice-skaters. Having found a vast lake, freshly frozen, they have begun a graceful and endless dance. None of them realizes how thin the ice, what shapes lurk beneath, none of them hear when the ice cracks and the cold water swallows one of them - and spits them back out.

There is something mightier than an Outcaste Prince hanging on to existence, carrying on echoes of his peerless sword techniques; there is the shade of a mortal hungry and desperate and mad who went too far into the dark and is now a prince annointed in blood, his skin taut and pale, the stars darkening at his passing. When the nephwracks ride on, the shades of the earth's mightiest kings turn away, hide in their chambers, and come out when only the laughter of the spectres remains, carried with the wind. Then they pretend this never happened.

The mighty of Creation ape whatever was the source of their power in life: Exalts carry lesser echoes of their Charms, merchant-princes have coffers spilling with pale ivory coins, warlords lead armies of phantom-warriors that never lived and the slave-ghosts of the servants buried alive with their corpse. But all this is a pale copy. True power is the strength of the Abyss: it is the neverending nightmare below the Underworld, the dread treasures of the Labyrinth, the scentless waters of the Abyss. It is the red surrender, the decision to give in to hunger and madness, feasting on other ghosts until their Essences are part of you. It is the shattering of your own fetters, abandoning whatever defined your identity to become just another monster.

But you need one to have the other. For the power of the Labyrinth, of Oblivion, of the surrender to the darkest hungers, the corruption of all the terrible things a ghost can do to rise above its station - for it to have strength, to have punch, you need the unfairness of Creation seeping through the cracks - you need a pretense of the old order to convey how wrong it is, and how deluded those who uphold it must be.

And there are no great dynasties of Dynasts carrying on their rule in the Underworld, for good reason. Once, the Underworld was considered as a second kingdom, touching Creation, symbiotic with it. The living rose there before their final reward, and some of the Exalted rose as ghost-kings, receiving respect and honor from their living brethren.

And it all went horribly wrong. Because that order was built on a pretense that the Abyss wasn't there, that the darkness didn't seep through and tempt. The cracks showed all the more as Celestial ghosts rose with tremendous Essence and madness and the living Exalts dared not look at them lest they see a reflection of their own cracks. And then they all died and it all came crumbling down. The dead flooded the Underworld in legions unseen before. Ghost-kings who only wielded the illusion of Celestial power were torn apart by throngs of distraught shades who then fell upon each other. All the polite fictions and feeble barreers that kept the Labyrinth in check crumbled. Spectre-lords arose, sarcophagus-cities were carved out of Labyrinth stone with pyramids of iron, nations of the dead perished overnight. And then all the gates and emissaries and sorcerous connections went dark, and for the first time in centuries the Sidereals themselves only knew the Underworld as the Great Beyond, and nothing more.

So now, there is the Immaculate Faith. It teaches that holding on to unlife is a sin, that the best thing a man can do is surrender to Lethe and move on to the next life. It teaches this because it knows that if the Ten Thousand Dragons cling on to their selves, forming dynasties of the dead, a Fallen Realm in Stygia, then it will all happen again. A shining Realm of lie and delusion, dynasties of ghosts whose inflated Essence makes them believe they carry on a shard of their Exalted nature. And the aberrant nature of the Underworld, the fault in its fate, will be the fault in their souls. They will fall, and they will be twisted, and Oblivion will find its foothold once more.

"And in the last eclipse the sea
Shall stand up like a tower,
Above all moons made dark and riven,
Hold up its foaming head in heaven,
And laugh, knowing its hour."
 
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I want good antagonists, and good, sad not-quite-a-person NPCs. I want Necromancers advised by ancient spectres of the long-dead rulers of Creation in the darkness of the Underworld. I want Nephwracks with pale shadows of Exalted Charms supplemented by the twisted dreams of dead titans. I want a Dawn Caste crusader who has spent three long centuries waging his endless crusade against the unholy dead, who doesn't even realize he ever died, so obsessed is he with his holy duty, who can pose a threat to even young Abyssals, with dark mirrors of Charms that cut the dead with wounds that cause them to bleed the Essence that keeps them from Lethe.
Okay? The thing is, with the possible exception of that last one, none of this requires that the ghosts of Exalts be intrinsically more mighty than any other ghost.

"I want powerful ghost antagonists, therefore even the youngest ghost of an Exalt has to keep their Exalted Specialness from life," the one doesn't follow from the other. Just have ghosts who are powerful because they are ancient, learned and twisted by their necrotic adventures. Maybe they happen to be the ghost of an Exalt, if that's what you want, maybe they don't.

On the flipside, if the ghosts of the Exalted are intrinsically more powerful than other ghosts, then the Underworld naturally trends towards, as Aleph put it, "Underworld: the Ghosting. Exactly like Creation was, but less interesting."
 
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I don't believe that most people, or even a large portion of them, even Exalts, choose ghosthood. Enough become ghosts for the underworld to have a good population. Exalted ghosts are very rare. And a lot of them probably have high causualty rates, or get eaten by Nephwracks or serve the Deathlords.
Yeah and that means you compare ... roughly a number of at least a double diggit million dead Dragonblooded over time to few thousand celestial Exalted.
Remember over at least a million Dragonblooded died during the contaction and fighting the fae.
Even if the percentage of ghosts that remain for them is lower then the percentage for exalted there are still enough of them.

Ignoring the tendency of the realm and others to make sure that DB Ghosts arrive without any gravegoods and the same goes for the high amount of celestials that died in the last million and a half years.
 
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I want good antagonists, and good, sad not-quite-a-person NPCs. I want Necromancers advised by ancient spectres of the long-dead rulers of Creation in the darkness of the Underworld. I want Nephwracks with pale shadows of Exalted Charms supplemented by the twisted dreams of dead titans.
Okay, cool. That would be any ghost who has supped of the nightmares of dead titans that are related to the Exalted. Their Charms don't come from them, they come from the Neverborn's nightmares of the ones who killed them - and that means that there's no reason for said ghosts to have been Exalted.

Good antagonists means not just rehashing the same boring as shit power structures that keep mortals - the source of far more interesting stories by number - on the bottom of the pile where they can never amount to anything. Your view makes it all but impossible to have someone who was nothing in life and found their true calling and opportunity in death, where they climbed to the top of the heap on sheer bloody-minded will that they never experienced in life. I consider that a waste. If you want Exalted walking over everyone with strength they were handed by cosmic lottery, play in Creation. In the Underworld, you have to earn your power.
 
"And in the last eclipse the sea
Shall stand up like a tower,
Above all moons made dark and riven,
Hold up its foaming head in heaven,
And laugh, knowing its hour."
This is amazing and I love it and will use it from now on as my preferred Underworld.

Okay? The thing is, with the possible exception of that last one, none of this requires that the ghosts of Exalts be intrinsically more mighty than any other ghost.

"I want powerful ghost antagonists, therefore even the youngest ghost of an Exalt has to keep their Exalted Specialness from life," the one doesn't follow from the other. Just have ghosts who are powerful because they are ancient, learned and twisted by their necrotic adventures. Maybe they happen to be the ghost of an Exalt, if that's what you want, maybe they don't.

On the flipside, if the ghosts of the Exalted are intrinsically more powerful than other ghosts, then the Underworld naturally trends towards, as Aleph put it, "Underworld: the Ghosting. Exactly like Creation was, but less interesting."
The youngest Exalts don't get jack shit. If you live a century or so as a great hero, then you start out with some neat tricks.
EDIT: I misread this at first, I thought it was talking about young Exalts dying, rather than young ghosts of old Exalts.
Okay, cool. That would be any ghost who has supped of the nightmares of dead titans that are related to the Exalted. Their Charms don't come from them, they come from the Neverborn's nightmares of the ones who killed them - and that means that there's no reason for said ghosts to have been Exalted.

Good antagonists means not just rehashing the same boring as shit power structures that keep mortals - the source of far more interesting stories by number - on the bottom of the pile where they can never amount to anything. Your view makes it all but impossible to have someone who was nothing in life and found their true calling and opportunity in death, where they climbed to the top of the heap on sheer bloody-minded will that they never experienced in life. I consider that a waste. If you want Exalted walking over everyone, play in Creation. In the Underworld, you have to earn your power.
I don't believe there are Exalted ghosts in any number that matters enough to dominate the Underworld. I don't believe most Exalts choose that fate. I believe the Dual-Kings were mortals who climbed to the top. I think most ghosts are tragic, empty shadows mindlessly aping the motions of their life, and Exalted ghosts are this writ large, but playing at heroism instead of rice farming. Of course, this is irrelevant because now I'm with Omicron's Underworld because I really like that one better.
 
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The only way I can see the Exalted having any advantage over any other newly-spawned ghost is that the ones among them who took the prospect of their own deaths seriously might well have included something like The Idiot's Guide to Arcanoi in their grave-goods, since their positions of power would have let them know enough to commission such a thing.

This in turn means that Sidereals are the most likely to have made such preparations, as they're the only Exalts with a hard cap to their lifespan.
 
Pretty sure you're misreading Fenrir here.
I think we have strongly differing assumptions on how many powerful Exalted ghosts there would be, and how much agency ghosts have in general, unless I'm misreading her. In my read, the ghosts strong enough to have agency still have limited agency. The ghosts who would become rulers are those who have passions related to ruling. I don't think there are many Exalted ghosts with the inclinations to rule who also don't just pass on. There are a few, sure, but they'd be outnumbered by the older mortal ghosts with the same tendencies.
 
I don't believe there are Exalted ghosts in any number that matters enough to dominate the Underworld. I don't believe most Exalts choose that fate. I believe the Dual-Kings were mortals who climbed to the top. I think most ghosts are tragic, empty shadows mindlessly aping the motions of their life, and Exalted ghosts are this writ large, but playing at heroism instead of rice farming. Of course, this is irrelevant because now I'm with Omicron's Underworld because I really like that one better.
The thing is... A; by this metric there aren't enough Exalted to dominate Creation, either. The Exalted are always outnumbered, and they always face strong opposition, so if they're facing the same situation in the Underworld you need to communicate why the result is different. B; as I understand it you don't really get ghosts mindlessly aping a life of being a rice farmer, because that kind of person lacks the drive and unfulfilled Passions to become a ghost in the first place.
 
I think most ghosts are tragic, empty shadows mindlessly aping the motions of their life, and Exalted ghosts are this writ large, but playing at heroism instead of rice farming.
... then what is there that is at all interesting or desirable about playing anywhere in the Underworld at all? Like, if 90% of the Underworld is empty-eyed ghosts mindlessly aping the exact same things they did in life, even the supposedly heroic ones, why is it a setting? Why does it have any detail at all? Why does it exist, instead of a differently-written and considerably more interesting version?

The point of a written-up realm of existence is to be cool and evocative enough that people want to go and play there. This view of the Underworld is even more boring than the canon one, and that takes some doing.
 
I don't think filling the Underworld with non-sapient ghosts makes it boring any more than filling Creation with non-sapient animals makes it boring.

Your take on the Underworld seems like a good one to me, but it's not the only way to go. As long as the Underworld has interesting people with interesting goals in it, it'll be worth playing in.

The thing is... A; by this metric there aren't enough Exalted to dominate Creation, either. The Exalted are always outnumbered, and they always face strong opposition, so if they're facing the same situation in the Underworld you need to communicate why the result is different.

Pretty sure nobody wants the gulf between mortal ghost and Exalt ghost to be as unbridgeable as the gulf between mortal and Exalt.

And for symmetry's sake, even Aleph doesn't seem to be arguing that there's no gulf. Exalted ghosts are a lot more likely to have high Attributes and Abilities, right? Plus they're likely to have awesome grave goods.
 
The thing is... A; by this metric there aren't enough Exalted to dominate Creation, either. The Exalted are always outnumbered, and they always face strong opposition, so if they're facing the same situation in the Underworld you need to communicate why the result is different. B; as I understand it you don't really get ghosts mindlessly aping a life of being a rice farmer, because that kind of person lacks the drive and unfulfilled Passions to become a ghost in the first place.
The ghosts of Exalts are not Exalts. They have the barest echo of their former glory, and this is not enough. The ghost of a centuries old Dawn might be able to make a young Dusk sweat, but the Dawn is not a Dusk, does not have the same variety and strength of powers, he has some mighty techniques that resemble powerful Melee Charms, but they are not those Charms, and the Abyssal is mightier, unless he makes the mistake as to treat the ghost of a Dawn as he would any other ghost, and allows it to gain the upper hand. Similiarly, the Zenith does not have the power to build a mighty nation around him, he has a hypnotic voice that can bend certain weak-willed ghosts, and can call some illusions to illustrate his sermons. The Eclipse cannot effortlessly bend the courts of the mighty around his words, the skills he had in life benefit from his insight as to the passions that drive those around him, and allow him some enhanced skill at manipulating others, but it is not the same as having dozens of Socialize Charms.

They are the shadows of Exalts, and the shadow of an Exalt is dangerous indeed. But they are not Exalts. Their capacity to shape the world is not the same.

(Also rice farmer might've been a bad example, but the point is that most passions aren't really world shaping, in my read, so most ghosts will have certain behaviors they follow over and over. A better example might be the ghosts of a long-dead army, who build up a fort in the deathly field mimicking the one they died on, maintaining vigil against the assault of an enemy who has long since won. They've got these powerful passions holding them here, but they aren't doing anything, and they don't even quite get that they're really dead. Most ghosts probably do know they died, but this sort of figure is what I want out of ghosts. The dead are honestly kinda sad. Other examples is the town lead by a ghost of a king who is encouraging other ghosts to make a new kingdom to rule, and everyone in the town is acting like its the real deal, but it's just this shantytown. Everyone here wants to make the life they had in Creation, and think they succeeded, because hey, this is a town, and these people run the shops, and there's a king over there telling us to pay him taxes, right?)
 
The ghosts of Exalts are not Exalts. They have the barest echo of their former glory, and this is not enough.
Then why give them even that much? Why not just let them begin as ghosts, driven by the bitter lament of their old might to seek out whatever power they can, until when or if they challenge an Exalt, they do it with graveborn strength earned since their death, which maybe they delude themselves into thinking is some reacquired echo of what they once were.
(Also rice farmer might've been a bad example, but the point is that most passions aren't really world shaping,
Neither is the heroic drive of most Exalted, tho.
 
Then why give them even that much? Why not just let them begin as ghosts, driven by the bitter lament of their old might to seek out whatever power they can, until when or if they challenge an Exalt, they do it with graveborn strength earned since their death, which maybe they delude themselves into thinking is some reacquired echo of what they once were.
Neither is the heroic drive of most Exalted, tho.
Because that's not something I want, basically. I don't like that view of it as much as I like my preexisting one. I think this is just us finding two different things more compelling than the other does.
 
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