Default setting: Fighting armies, geopolitics, nation-building.
Except there's not really any support for that statement, well, anywhere else. The system doesn't support it. No, the fact that the books mention who has armies of what size isn't substantial support.
Almost all of the combat system is about personal conflicts, and there is no functional political system.

I am saying that Exalted's ruleset fails to support its intended scale and scope of playing to a ridiculous degree and would be best served being refocused on that intended scope and scale.
Alternatively, you're wrong about the intended scale and scope.
I mean, I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see a system where 90% of the mechanics are for personal scale action, I don't look at books that mention armies but never give them proper mechanical representation and think "yes, that's the scale this game is meant for". I think "oh, that's neat information".

Also, "most obvious" does not mean "default". It means "this is probably what you thought of first".
 
Oh, it doesn't, of course. What the current system does is simpler, though: it basically handwaves morale, rolling it into health. There is a single exception, Perfect Morale, which is extremely simple. The results can be stupid, but there's basically no mechanical weight at all.

This brings us back to the question of, if the results are stupid and you need to handwave away stupidity to make it work, why are you even bothering with the detour, why not go rules-light and skip right to handwaving?

Saves two years of development time and probably upwards of 100,000 words.
 
Except there's not really any support for that statement, well, anywhere else. The system doesn't support it. No, the fact that the books mention who has armies of what size isn't substantial support.
Almost all of the combat system is about personal conflicts, and there is no functional political system.

Yes, this is why the system is bad. It fails to actually support the intended scope of the game. The fact that the setting material so heavily emphasizes geopolitics rather than punching out bosses is, in fact, substantial support for the idea. The fact that the game is supposed to explicitly repudiate the murderhobo "armies are scenery, wandering bands of adventurers solve things by beating up big bads" kind of classical fantasy RPG playstyle is substantial support for the idea. The statements of the developers about political games and how they want Solars to be emperors and kingmakers is support for the idea.

I'm not pulling this interpretation of Exalted from the aether. I'm pulling it from the kinds of fluff they emphasize, and then looking at the mechanics, and saying that the mechanics don't serve the written intent. Your counterargument is assuming that the mechanics are the things that actually inform people what the game is about and are showing people what the setting is really about... when that's basically never been a thing in White Wolf outside of Borgstromancy, which the Exalted devs have rejected.

Alternatively, you're wrong about the intended scale and scope.
I mean, I can't speak for anyone else, but when I see a system where 90% of the mechanics are for personal scale action, I don't look at books that mention armies but never give them proper mechanical representation and think "yes, that's the scale this game is meant for". I think "oh, that's neat information".

Also, "most obvious" does not mean "default". It means "this is probably what you thought of first".

When it's called "Vanilla Exalted" and it says that there's "No Change" in the focus, I'm fairly sure it means 'default.' Even if we, arguendo, assume your statement is true, this implies that the most evocative and immediately obvious way to run an Exalted game is one which is poorly supported by the mechanics. Which is a problem. And is, in fact, not substantially weakening my argument. "The style most people will think of first and probably end up playing first is not mechanically supported" isn't any weaker an argument than "Exalted fails to emphasize its core game style."
 
are people seriously dancing around the bit where Exalted has complex personal combat rules because people want to be Cloud, and doesn't have good large scale rules, because it's competing primarily with other RPGs who don't have that either but do have highly granular personal combat.

Exalted is meant to compete with D&D, not Diplomacy and Civilization. Whatever scope the fluff writers put in, that's the actual Doyalist, economic impetus behind Exalted design decisions.

I am still boggled by the craft minigame though. Why would they think that is fun?
 
are people seriously dancing around the bit where Exalted has complex personal combat rules because people want to be Cloud, and doesn't have good large scale rules, because it's competing primarily with other RPGs who don't have that either but do have highly granular personal combat.

Exalted is meant to compete with D&D, not Diplomacy and Civilization. Whatever scope the fluff writers put in, that's the actual Doyalist, economic impetus behind Exalted design decisions.

I am still boggled by the craft minigame though. Why would they think that is fun?

This is a very interesting interpretation of why they have complex personal combat rules which implies a level of insight in the Exalted mechanics which not a single edition has demonstrated. Moreover, it ignores that a system which emphasizes mass combat would very well allow you to be Cloud as well. Imagine if the starting charm for any fighty Exalt investing in Combat was "I actually matter when tons of guys are on the battlefield, because I can kill dozens of men in single combat" and everything built off of that.

Exalted is heavily welded to its legacy code, and if you're saying that they deliberately designed it to have a shitty and unsupported mass combat system I'd like more evidence than simply "they didn't think much about it and just stuck with a bunch of legacy code."

Furthermore, even if you were right, that doesn't make it a good idea, simply because D&D, well, does D&D a lot better than Exalted does. Exalted isn't going to compete with D&D simply on adventuring parties adventuring, so it should try to differentiate itself.
 
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The fact that the setting material so heavily emphasizes geopolitics rather than punching out bosses is, in fact, substantial support for the idea. The fact that the game is supposed to explicitly repudiate the murderhobo "armies are scenery, wandering bands of adventurers solve things by beating up big bads" kind of classical fantasy RPG playstyle is substantial support for the idea.
... But it doesn't really emphasize geopolitics? I've gotten more information about setting geopolitics from D&D sourcebooks than Exalted books. Does that mean D&D is about geopolitics?

Also, you don't need a game of geopolitics and armies to run counter to the classical fantasy RPG playstyle.
(Not that a setting where Exalted rule actually works as a repudiation for the classic "kill the BBEG to save the kingdom" campaign plot, but whatever.)

Your counterargument is assuming that the mechanics are the things that actually inform people what the game is about and are showing people what the setting is really about
My god, assuming the game is about the things the game can actually do! What villainy is this?!
Really, dude?

When it's called "Vanilla Exalted" and it says that there's "No Change" in the focus, I'm fairly sure it means 'default.' Even if we, arguendo, assume your statement is true, this implies that the most evocative and immediately obvious way to run an Exalted game is one which is poorly supported by the mechanics. Which is a problem. And is, in fact, not substantially weakening my argument. "The style most people will think of first and probably end up playing first is not mechanically supported" isn't any weaker an argument than "Exalted fails to emphasize its core game style."
What they call "Vanilla Exalted"... isn't really evocative. Nor was it really an obvious campaign to me. But that's a different discussion.
The actual game doesn't have the mechanics to support politicking. Writers have fucked up settings since tabletop gaming became an industry, so I don't really put much weight on what writers decided to write about when I can look at what I can do with the actual mechanics.
Writers fucking up when talking about what the setting is about... Well, yeah. We've all heard about MoEP: Infernals.

e: BoEP > MoEP
 
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So... I, a supremely skilled archer, cannot snipe officers out of a military unit? Are you quite sure that's what you want your system to be claiming?
You can, but that's really just a stunt for an attack, possible even a mundane one. It's not mechanically distinct from an attack that kills an officer and everyone near him, nor is it distinct from a swordsman hacking his way through the ranks with an equivalent attack. When you have 100 initiative, does a decisive attack that involves no charms yet can one shot an army really only involve a single mundane arrow? Always?

All I'm saying is that in a battle between a Solar and an army the mechanics only loosely relate to the narrative. Just because you, the player, didn't explicitly use any charms in your attack doesn't mean that your character isn't pulling all kinds of bullshit with Solar essence.
 
I should have been more specific. Circus Skiff is overpowered compared to other spells of its level. It's far too fast for its maneuverability. In 1e and 3e it's far slower, 30 mph or less.
My impression is that it isn't a matter of just the Skiff, but of spells in general. Spells provide benefits that are often better than charm trees or anima powers, and do so on a budget. Like that secret-keeping curse that is a Perfect Attack, and you know if anybody Resists it on casting, and it automagically incapacitates anyone who tries to ask his sorcerous friends to Countermagic it after the fact. Sure, some spells are quite weak, but you never have to take weak spells, as spells have no prerequisites other than their Circle Sorcery level and Occult 3-5. The common counterargument about cheapness of spells is (IME) 'But justifying Sorcery for you character is hard!', but I feel that's bad design, because it pits a character's concept against another character's XP: 'If your concept is not a sorcerer, you can never ever match a sorcerer-level utility with your non-sorcerous types of magic, at any sort of comparable cost'.

While I dislike that approach, that could work. Master Horseman's Techniques makes it inexhaustible. Don't forget the Ride charms that allow you to use reflexive and supplemental charms on your mount.

If you really want speed, just learn Flashing Thunderbolt Steed to travel at (mount's stamina * 10) mph. A Strix or a Fogshark will fly at 80 mph. But why take those when you could ride a giant squid at 100 mph, a yeddim at 110 mph, or a tyrant lizard at 120 mph?
Master Horseman's Techniques is the one Ride Charm I've considered maybe eventually taking, yes. It's still underwhelming for a mobility-centred skill charm in a party with a sorc. But it'll have to do for situations when one can't ask a sorc to give one a ride to the nearest personal objective.

And yes, I've looked at Flashing Thunderbolt Steed, but it has an outrageous prerequisite and is still of little use for non-outrageous mounts. Plus, I don't want a Yeddim or Tyrant Lizard, I want something elegant (and quick even on its own) - at most a gryphon (but it turns out that buying a gryphon is way harder than buying a Simhata, and it's not a matter of having Resources 5). Plus it only lasts one hour anyway, while occasionally I need to travel for weeks.
 
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You can, but that's really just a stunt for an attack, possible even a mundane one. It's not mechanically distinct from an attack that kills an officer and everyone near him, nor is it distinct from a swordsman hacking his way through the ranks with an equivalent attack. When you have 100 initiative, does a decisive attack that involves no charms yet can one shot an army really only involve a single mundane arrow? Always?

All I'm saying is that in a battle between a Solar and an army the mechanics only loosely relate to the narrative. Just because you, the player, didn't explicitly use any charms in your attack doesn't mean that your character isn't pulling all kinds of bullshit with Solar essence.

I'm pretty sure someone used that one almost verbatim to try and defend the mass combat system... in 2008.
 
Remind me to work on my hack of GURPS Mass Combat when I have free time. Of course, while GURPS does use blob units, if you go into mass combat as opposed to regular combat, the heroes are also treated as blob units. If you were talking about Solars, then GURPS would have one army be smaller but could have lots of tricks like Stealth, C3I (War Charms!), Fire(Archery Charms! Sorcery!) Armor(Dodge Charms! Resistance Charms! Artifact Armor!) Recon (Awareness Charms!) Artillery(Sorcery! Archery Charms!), possibly Nuetrailize C3I/Artillary/Recon and obviously Hero and Super-Soldier.

Even under this system, Exalts will still wreck face, but it at least distinguishes between casualties, morale, and has specific and noted ways of handling non-humans integrated directly into the rules.
Are we talking about the standard Mass Combat system, or the Tactical Mass Combat system (from Pyramid)? Because the former doesn't have much in the way of separate units at all in actual battles (as opposed to the preparation phase) - you cannot kill all their artillery and move on to surround the infantry etc. While the latter does not necessarily lump heroes with blobs (if they're meaningful as standalone units). Either way, neither of its two incarnations is good for interacting directly with Charms because the overall mechanics are so different from individual combat. Also, potentially this:
Well you could have every battle be just an opposed War roll, with bonuses from army size and quality. There, no blobing.

Lack the epic feel though, so it doesn't really set the tone you want for Exalted.
 
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My impression is that it isn't a matter of just the Skiff, but of spells in general. Spells provide benefits that are often better than charm trees or anima powers, and do so on a budget. Like that secret-keeping curse that is a Perfect Attack, and you know if anybody Resists it on casting, and it automagically incapacitates anyone who tries to ask his sorcerous friends to Countermagic it after the fact. Sure, some spells are quite weak, but you never have to take weak spells, as spells have no prerequisites other than their Circle Sorcery level and Occult 3-5. The common counterargument about cheapness of spells is (IME) 'But justifying Sorcery for you character is hard!', but I feel that's bad design, because it pits a character's concept against another character's XP: 'If your concept is not a sorcerer, you can never ever match a sorcerer-level utility with your non-sorcerous types of magic, at any sort of comparable cost'.

To this, I will counter with the fact that Sorcery is meant to be strong, but you cannot in any way survive as a Sorcerer alone, trying that will just kill you when you face your first Exalt. Sorcery can take several turns to cast, while a Charm is just activated and then it works. Sorcerous workings take weeks and months to do, and require components* to even work, while Charms simply do their thing. Sorcery is basically free, because you don't spend any motes and only roll against a Target Number, but this can take several turns, while the Charm user is happily spamming his Supplemental and Reflexive Charms and laughing his ass off as his Mote regeneration kicks in.

I am all in for balance, and I can see plenty of issues with Third Edition, but I do not think Sorcery is one of them, people become Sorcerers, not to get another set of Charms balanced against their own (Because then they could just get the same effects with their own Charms), but to get a unique and versatile tool that can accomplish things that they could not do without this tool.

*Well, some of them do.
 
Do you have a minute to talk about our lord and saviour, GURPS? :3
GURPS doesn't handle politics and propaganda primarily on the big scale. The closest thing to an actually crunchy propaganda system is Toxic Memes (which is semi-convered to 4e with Changing Times). And Social Engineering, but it's very handwavy in terms of large-scale propaganda campaigns.
 
When you have 100 initiative, does a decisive attack that involves no charms yet can one shot an army really only involve a single mundane arrow? Always?
I dunno, but the answer isn't as trivial as one stunt.
Phantom Arrow Technique
Cost:
1m; Mins: Archery 3, Essence 1
Type: Reflexive
Keywords: None
Duration: Instant
Prerequisite Charms: None
Palming a mote of Essence, the Lawgiver pulls a thorn from her heart and fires it at the breast of her enemy. With this Charm, the Solar may continue firing her bow even when she has run out of arrows.
I'm out of arrows, but I have 100 initiative. I make a decisive attack against the enemy army with Phantom Arrow Technique.

How many motes do I spend?

I'm out of arrows, and want to shoot one dude in the face. I make a decisive attack against the enemy with Phantom Arrow Technique.

How many motes do I spend? What if I stunt the attack as firing three times?
 
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I dunno, but the answer isn't as trivial as one stunt.

I'm out of arrows, but I have 100 initiative. I make a decisive attack against the enemy army with Phantom Arrow Technique.

How many motes do I spend?

I'm out of arrows, and want to shoot one dude in the face. I make a decisive attack against the enemy with Phantom Arrow Technique.

How many motes do I spend? What if I stunt the attack as firing three times?
You're only making one mechanically significant action, so I would only require the charm have one mechanical activation.
 
To this, I will counter with the fact that Sorcery is meant to be strong, but you cannot in any way survive as a Sorcerer alone, trying that will just kill you when you face your first Exalt. Sorcery can take several turns to cast, while a Charm is just activated and then it works. Sorcerous workings take weeks and months to do, and require components* to even work, while Charms simply do their thing. Sorcery is basically free, because you don't spend any motes and only roll against a Target Number, but this can take several turns, while the Charm user is happily spamming his Supplemental and Reflexive Charms and laughing his ass off as his Mote regeneration kicks in.

I am all in for balance, and I can see plenty of issues with Third Edition, but I do not think Sorcery is one of them, people become Sorcerers, not to get another set of Charms balanced against their own (Because then they could just get the same effects with their own Charms), but to get a unique and versatile tool that can accomplish things that they could not do without this tool.

*Well, some of them do.
First, I never claimed that combat spells are OP. I said that Sorcery has better utility for an outrageously low cost. A sorc does not try to cast flying fireballs in combat, but rather sends the handful of pet murderblenders into combat. And casts Skin of Bronze on Sunset (and/or Sunrise) instead of spending XP on Resistance 2. That's still better than investing 6-12 charms into Mêlée and Resistance, in terms of cost/benefit. So you can spend all those XP you saved on something you need - more defenses, more other traits, whatever. Plus, the spells I mentioned do in fact just work doing their thing - you don't even need to commit motes!

Also: did all these things we discussed happen to be inherited in Ex3E without changes that you compare one to the other?
 
What does charm delivery system mean exactly?

It's an old jab I had at Holden and Hatewheel's design philosophy, back before we knew 2.5/3e was in the pipe: "It's totally better to write new charms to shore up the old design than it is to write new actions or clarify poorly thought out rules!"

Like, let's put it this way: 2.5e has almost no changes to base rules; everything was injected via the Charms as exceptions on top of exceptions.
 
Would the removal of setting limitations on sorcery and martial arts break the setting? By that I mean making Adamant Sorcery, Void Necromancy and Sideral Martial Arts theorically possible for everyone to learn.

I ask that because I deeply hate Solar Supremacy and see concepts like "Rakshi the immortal Lunar Elder specialized in magic which will never be as good as the iconic Twillight"
 
Here's my fundamental problem with all the dice trick charms: It's not that they exist, it's that they are fundamentally niche Charms that will not be relevant to 90% of the layerbase most of the time, and they are in a goddam corebook. Niche dice tricks are the exact sort of thing you in supplements for people who care enough about the game to get the things and they're wasting space on niche shit in the fucking corebook.

Especially infuriating is the fact that, despite some grumbling and the presence of the Craft system, the systems as a whole are overall more elegant and easy to parse through, and then you get to the Charms chapter and its just page after page of endless bloat with most of it being Charms that just straight up do not need to exist in the corebook. They tried to put in 'everything and the kitchen sink' into this book, without realizing that the phrase usually refers to deals that are just too good to be true and the Corebook showcases this by putting in so much stuff it's actually difficult to parse out what is and isn't viable and how to progress with your character, not to mention taking book space away from sections that really do desperately need it.
 
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What old is new, whats new is old again. The zombie remnants of White Wolf have changed ownership again. Surprisingly this time Towards Paradox Entertainment mainly known for there Grand strategy even if they where also the Publishers of Pillar of Eternity is attuning itself to the corpse and propping them up.


E3 and Paradox Bug controll a match made in the Labyrinth.
 
What old is new, whats new is old again. The zombie remnants of White Wolf have changed ownership again. Surprisingly this time Towards Paradox Entertainment mainly known for there Grand strategy even if they where also the Publishers of Pillar of Eternity is attuning itself to the corpse and propping them up.


E3 and Paradox Bug controll a match made in the Labyrinth.
So are Onyx Path/Ex3 separate from White Wolf as of now, or are they part of the package? I'm not sure I got all the details right back in the day.
 
Yes, this is why the system is bad. It fails to actually support the intended scope of the game. The fact that the setting material so heavily emphasizes geopolitics rather than punching out bosses is, in fact, substantial support for the idea. The fact that the game is supposed to explicitly repudiate the murderhobo "armies are scenery, wandering bands of adventurers solve things by beating up big bads" kind of classical fantasy RPG playstyle is substantial support for the idea. The statements of the developers about political games and how they want Solars to be emperors and kingmakers is support for the idea.

I'm not pulling this interpretation of Exalted from the aether. I'm pulling it from the kinds of fluff they emphasize, and then looking at the mechanics, and saying that the mechanics don't serve the written intent. Your counterargument is assuming that the mechanics are the things that actually inform people what the game is about and are showing people what the setting is really about... when that's basically never been a thing in White Wolf outside of Borgstromancy, which the Exalted devs have rejected.



When it's called "Vanilla Exalted" and it says that there's "No Change" in the focus, I'm fairly sure it means 'default.' Even if we, arguendo, assume your statement is true, this implies that the most evocative and immediately obvious way to run an Exalted game is one which is poorly supported by the mechanics. Which is a problem. And is, in fact, not substantially weakening my argument. "The style most people will think of first and probably end up playing first is not mechanically supported" isn't any weaker an argument than "Exalted fails to emphasize its core game style."

Huh. I've got to admit, I never really saw the whole geopolitics angle as the primary intended form of Exalted. That it was there and was a thing you could do was pretty sweet, but I always read the setting as encouraging the 'wandering heroes' archetype.

The Wyld Hunt always felt like an incentive to keep moving and keep your head down. You could help people out and perform great deeds of heroism that the locals will speak of for generations, but having done that the best course of action is to leave. Staying in one place gives the Wyld Hunt a stationary target they can aim for and properly prepare to face, and exposes a lot of people that you might very well care about to collateral damage.

And hey, maybe you manage to survive or even defeat the Wyld Hunt when it comes for you. Well, that's grand, but now you've got the Realm's attention. The next Hunt they send will be larger and better equipped, and if that doesn't work they scale up to legions and then armies and then outright super weapons, partly because you're an Anathema and partly because letting someone defy them and live sends the wrong message to the other dozen or so nearby countries they're exploiting.

3e seems to be supporting this viewpoint as well. The section on the Wyld Hunt talks about them being disorganized and slow right now, but explicitly says they will not stay that way. It talks about the Immaculate Philosophy being a widely accepted ideology and often a force for good in the face of disaster and divine oppression. It describes dozens of unique and fascinating settings in just enough detail to serve as inspiration and give you the general idea of them, without going into the full details necessary to run an entire game set in one of them. It stresses the power of the Dragon-Blooded and the guerrila warfare of the Lunar Exalted, introducing Sidereals in the opening fiction as the sort of people who might come and try to outright assassinate you.

The combat, the social influence, even the crafting systems are all set up to keep the focus on individual people and what they care about. Artifacts are all highly personalized with unique abilities. Sorcery can be attained any number of different ways, with power gathering rituals and control spells providing individual identity to a common archetype. And, yes, the high-end social management systems are bare bones and the battle group system is designed to model one hero facing off against a hundred ninja rather than two armies clashing over the river valley.

In essence, while you can make the point that 2e had a larger geopolitical element, 3e seems to be aiming for a much smaller and more personalized stories, where more weight is given to individuals and what they believe than grand societal trends.

And you know what? I'm OK with that. Indeed, I actually really like it.
 
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