No, the bit where the Unconquered Sun ordered the Solars to stand down and the Solars said "We get it boss, don't worry we'll keep fighting."
Ignoring that this is explicitly contradicted elsewhere and also from chapter one of Infernals, they really, really, didn't think this through. At all. Why would the Primordials stop at merely ordering the Gods to command their chosen to surrender? Why not order them to persuade the Exalted to stop or if that fails simply order them to attack their chosen?

Theion: IF SOME OF THY WAYWARD CHILDREN WILL NOT LISTEN TO REASON, THEN THOU MUST STRIKE THEM DOWN UNTIL THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED THROUGH REINCARNATION.
 
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I hope then that the other Splat will have the equivalent of Stillness-Drawing Meditation and Trance of Fugue Vision.

Of course, i think they are meant to be the Performance equivalent of regaining motes in battle(Which seem to me a very stupid thing), but using Voice of the Night Bird with them allow a Solar up to 15 motes regained for turn.
Er, 15?

5 standard, +5 at E5 for Stillness-Drawing Meditation, +1 for Trance of Fugue Vision by default and +1 for each 10 (average of 1 ten per ten dice says 1-2 motes) comes to 12-13. The +1 for two minutes of performance does not apply in combat for obvious reasons. It's also rather situational: you need a large group to convince in the first place for Stillness-Drawing Meditation (note, as per the Size descriptions, this is Size 4 or several hundred people), and they need a Resolve 4+ to trip the most powerful part of Trance of Fugue Vision. That generally means your running against a Defining Intimacy (or your fighting monks, or both), which makes getting a successful influence that much harder. Your also pouring motes into both the attack and the Social Influence, so your gonna need that influx of motes. You also need to be E5, so this is gonna take a while.

Compared to Essence-Gathering Temper, its much more situational, and your not likely to get more then one shot off per combat anyways for either. I'd go for EGT, to be frank: it costs less XP to be useful, is way less situational and reaches max power much faster.
 
Ignoring that this is explicitly contradicted elsewhere and also from chapter one of Infernals, they really, really, didn't think this through. At all. Why would the Primordials stop at merely ordering the Gods to command their chosen to surrender? Why not order them to persuade the Exalted to stop or if that fails simply order them to attack their chosen?

Theion: IF SOME OF THY WAYWARD CHILDREN WILL NOT LISTEN TO REASON, THEN THOU MUST STRIKE THEM DOWN UNTIL THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED THROUGH REINCARNATION.

I kinda assumed that Gaea's contribution to the War (rather than the Elemental Dragons'), was to constantly whisper contradicting orders to the Incarnae whenever the Primordials tried to command them.
 
Ignoring that this is explicitly contradicted elsewhere and also from chapter one of Infernals, they really, really, didn't think this through. At all. Why would the Primordials stop at merely ordering the Gods to command their chosen to surrender? Why not order them to persuade the Exalted to stop or if that fails simply order them to attack their chosen?

Theion: IF SOME OF THY WAYWARD CHILDREN WILL NOT LISTEN TO REASON, THEN THOU MUST STRIKE THEM DOWN UNTIL THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED THROUGH REINCARNATION.

I assumed the Primordials tried giving the order, then just fought anyways when that didn't work. You don't have to go with one or the other, after all. As for ordering them to attack the Exalted, I believe that suicide is an Unacceptable Order ;)
 
As for ordering them to attack the Exalted, I believe that suicide is an Unacceptable Order ;)
You forget that powerful magic can explicitly force even unacceptable orders upon targets. Not that such an order would be even remotely suicidal for ones such as they.

I kinda assumed that Gaea's contribution to the War (rather than the Elemental Dragons'), was to constantly whisper contradicting orders to the Incarnae whenever the Primordials tried to command them.
The image of the Primordials playing a giant game of Exalt season/Deva season with the Sun is rather amusing. It's also one reason why the geasa placed upon the gods never imposed a requirement of absolute obedience, but instead merely prevented them from raising their arms against their creators.
 
This would be a huge (and obvious) loophole in the surrender oaths, so I'd be shocked if it were true. I'm quite confident they apply to all the creations of the Yozi, not merely the Yozi themselves.

Nope. The Surrender Oaths literally bind only the Yozi. Everything else in Malfeas, everything else, is chained there solely by the spite of the Yozi themselves. They may not be free, therefore none may be free.

As far as the Gods are concerned, the entirety of Malfeas could empty tomorrow and set up a giant orgy on Meru and the oaths would not be concerned. This isn't going to happen, because spite and malice is one thing the Yozi have an infinite supply of.

(The oaths specifically included summoning demons as a trap, one of the many ways that the Yozi could be convinced they could escape but can't actually and it only makes them more spiteful.)
 
You know what? Time for some homebrew. Have a spell.


Celestial Circle Spell: Enduring Heartwood Bastion
Cost: 45m
Target: Seed and planter.

Towns and towers grow like trees, taller and wider as they age. To cast this spell, sorcerer first needs a planter sized for a tree made of White Jade, filled with soil enriched by powdered Green Jade. Such an object is a Resources 4 purchase in most large cities.

The planter must be placed in an open, geomantically auspicious point within a group of structures or city, like a courtyard, plaza or central parade ground. The ritual itself starts as moon-rise, were the sorcerer plants a tree seed in the jade-infused soil as the moon rises over the horizon.

From here the sorcerer must sing an old realm verse of strength and endurance until dawn's first light, and water the seed with 3 health levels worth of blood. This is a [Charisma + Performance] roll at Difficulty 3. If successful the tree grows a hundred years old in just a few hours, and its leaves are an impossibly rich, verdant green.

From this point, the essence-infused tree can be connected to any intact structure made of earth, wood or stone within [the Sorcerer's (Essence + Occult) x 100] yards. This connection is created by cutting branches from the tree with a magical blade or tool, and then constructing a shrine to the building's least god. By building the god a grand palace and investing it with power, their domain is proof against ruin. The shrine counts as an arcane link to the tree.

As long as the tree lives or the branch remains enshrined, a protected structure and its components count as a First Age Structure- damage is rolled instead of applied as automatic successes. Further, five minutes after suffering any damage, new stone or unworked earth rises from underground and repairs the structure. Wooden elements and structures grow fresh boughs that merge together creating unbroken spans.

The tree itself is supernaturally strong and ageless, immune to all forms of mundane disease and damage. Only Charms and magical weapons can directly damage it.

The buildings reinforced by this spell are not immune to countermagic, but must be disenchanted individually with Sapphire Countermagic. The tree itself can also be disenchanted in this manner, though one must reach it first. Geomantic upheaval, damage or otherwise souring the local dragon lines can also sicken the tree, but it dies slowly- over five days. If the imbalance can be corrected, the tree regains its strength almost instantly.
 
Ignoring that this is explicitly contradicted elsewhere and also from chapter one of Infernals, they really, really, didn't think this through. At all. Why would the Primordials stop at merely ordering the Gods to command their chosen to surrender? Why not order them to persuade the Exalted to stop or if that fails simply order them to attack their chosen?

Theion: IF SOME OF THY WAYWARD CHILDREN WILL NOT LISTEN TO REASON, THEN THOU MUST STRIKE THEM DOWN UNTIL THEY ARE ENLIGHTENED THROUGH REINCARNATION.
Firstly, you're using Chapter One of MoEP: Infernals to justify, uh, anything, so lulz. Second, it's explicit that the Gods were bound to obey the Primordials, and this makes sense as a driving motivation for why they needed the Exalted to rebel instead. Thirdly, it's entirely possible the Incarna were ordered to slay their Chosen, and simply failed - the Exalted Host was a thing of incalculable might. It's equally possible the Primordials simply thought there would be no need to turn every hand against the Exalted; they were, after all, the immortal Titans. Who surrendered shortly after realising holy shit people these things can kill us.
 
As someone relatively new to the fandom, I know that the first two chapters of MoEP: Infernals are notorious, but why, exactly?

I personally hate them because for some reason the developers decided that Infernals needed to gain limit based on the F***ing demon binding templates in addition to all their other various conditions.... and its only mentioned in those chapters.

Some say its because the first two chapters of their book focus more on the Yozi then the actual infernals. Other people hate them for the stupid derivative view of hell and the Yozi that treats them like five monolithic satan archetypes working together to conquer the world, with Maeflas being an old fashioned fire and brimestone your our champions so we are gonna pass you between our various Jouton for a 'Welcome to your first week as an Infernal' rape party. Throw in the various other behaviors (yes, lets all rape the heavily mutated 11 year old girl for shits and giggles!) and you get the feeling they thought they were writing a stereotypical 'evil only' splat.

Rather then something more originally intended to be the final member of the 'central six'.
 
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Second, it's explicit that the Gods were bound to obey the Primordials, and this makes sense as a driving motivation for why they needed the Exalted to rebel instead.
Really? Where was this stated, other than the notorious Chapter One of Infernals? The divine geas has always been described as merely preventing the gods from directly attacking their creators. A more comprehensive geas would have prevented the rebellion entirely.

Thirdly, it's entirely possible the Incarna were ordered to slay their Chosen, and simply failed - the Exalted Host was a thing of incalculable might.
The Titanic Host was also mighty. Victory was never certain, even with the gods indirectly supporting the Exalted. With the gods directly working against them, what hope could they have had?

The greatest danger in this scenario would be the Incarna "corrupting" their chosen and convincing them to switch sides. The Unconquered Sun's tongue is no less potent that his arms. What newly Exalted Solar could have ignored his desperate cry for a peaceful end to the utter madness of this war, before it ripped the very world asunder?
 
Really? Where was this stated, other than the notorious Chapter One of Infernals? The divine geas has always been described as merely preventing the gods from directly attacking their creators. A more comprehensive geas would have prevented the rebellion entirely.
Eh. I always took the "could raise no hands against their creators" from the corebook a bit more broadly than that, but fine, it's not explicitly stated. It's still plausible and sensible.
The Titanic Host was also mighty. Victory was never certain, even with the gods indirectly supporting the Exalted. With the gods directly working against them, what hope could they have had?
I'm going to go with 'enough'.

Yes, the Unconquered Sun can be very convincing, but so can a life lived in anguished slavery at the mercy of capricious Titans. Remember, humanity signed on to fight the Primordials for their own reasons.
 
Eh. I always took the "could raise no hands against their creators" from the corebook a bit more broadly than that, but fine, it's not explicitly stated. It's still plausible and sensible.
Reading it broadly would be limiting how much indirect help the gods could provide, not adding something entirely unrelated. The idea that Primordials had such direct control is actually explicitly contradicted in a number of places.

I'm also skeptical that the gods would have been nearly so enthusiastic about rebelling if they had known they would surely die on the swords of their own champions.

Yes, the Unconquered Sun can be very convincing, but so can a life lived in anguished slavery at the mercy of capricious Titans. Remember, humanity signed on to fight the Primordials for their own reasons.
There were traitor Exalted in canon, and that was without their patron Exalting them with a desperate plea to save humanity by ending the war. He's also vastly more convincing when he whisks you away to Heaven the moment you Exalt.

So is making servants who are, by design, happy with their place in the world.
Evidently the Primordials forgot to do that.
Oh, but they did. The whole thing worked just fine for untold eons.

They just forgot that they were supposed to wipe their servant's memories every million years or so.
 
What time is it? That's right! It's your weekly Kerisgame time! In which Keris plays the blushing artist some more, accidentally another seduction (well, deliberately, but I didn't expect to seduction so well), and finds out some dirty little secrets about our friend Ledaal Norono. Also, in which we get our first look at the mysterious "Lady"; the Abyssal Exalt who's been causing us so much trouble!

Grr.

(And yes, I would totally have done it if Keris had failed that Temperance roll. :D)
 
I think it's kinda dodgy how Sasi can rope people with VEE with simple request like "a drink", even though you got rid of the training effect.
Cecelyne's Excellency said:
She is deeply insightful into the desires and failures of others and owns those whose wishes she fulfills.
Cecelyne's Excellency also assists actions that give others what they want in order to influence and ultimately own them. She also helps punish those who break a deal

I understand using VEE on that second circle to free them from the summoning circle, but offering a drink seems cheap.
 
I understand using VEE on that second circle to free them from the summoning circle, but offering a drink seems cheap.

Remember, she's spending 10m, 1wp a pop - and they can negate it for 1wp. Which is why she had to run off, find a safe place to anima flare, and recharge, and then hide until her anima went down.

It's just she's picking her targets carefully, going for influential mortals, and no one has a reason to suspect her.

But yes. VEE has always had the ability to give people things from idle requests. With the mutation upgrade, you can use someone's "Please turn the lights up" to grant someone nightvision. You can ask someone a riddle, and when they want to know the answer, you can train them in Int. Etc etc. VEE is incredibly exploitable - and it's actually far more exploitable in canon than with us, because due to our mote reactor system, you can't use Cece Mythos Exultant to recharge your expenditure with 2 2-dot stunts and a 1-dot stunt. So it's much less spammable unless you're anima flaring - and there you're telling everyone that you're using magic.
 
Actually, it's an interesting point about Sasi that while we've seen her collecting debts like candy - sometimes three or four from one person from one request ("do you want me to go to bed with you? Do you want Humble Root to? Do you want both of us to?") - I don't think we've actually seen her calling any in yet. She likes having them, but she seems to mostly like having them as insurance.
 
Actually, it's an interesting point about Sasi that while we've seen her collecting debts like candy - sometimes three or four from one person from one request ("do you want me to go to bed with you? Do you want Humble Root to? Do you want both of us to?") - I don't think we've actually seen her calling any in yet. She likes having them, but she seems to mostly like having them as insurance.

…heck, if she's being intimate with someone, she could pick up dozens or at least, have plenty of opportunities) over the course of the night if they experimented at all.

Or on the more mundane, all the little things people ask for over the course of the day…

Yikes. So, the important question: does Keris owe her any favours?
 
Actually, it's an interesting point about Sasi that while we've seen her collecting debts like candy - sometimes three or four from one person from one request ("do you want me to go to bed with you? Do you want Humble Root to? Do you want both of us to?") - I don't think we've actually seen her calling any in yet. She likes having them, but she seems to mostly like having them as insurance.
Actually, do you mind posting that upgrade for VEE? I've got a game coming up soon and the ST isn't fond of the canon version of the charm(and I'm not either after one espeically bad min-maxer) , but she's open to homebrew and I'd love to see your version of the charm, espeically if it's more playable or enjyably exploitable.

(Ensnaring an entire city states nobility to wishes is fun for everyone, giving yourself fives in your combat skill, strength and dexterity attributes with just a few charm uses is just boring.)
 
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Actually, do you mind posting that upgrade for VEE? I've got a game coming up soon and the ST isn't fond of the canon version of the charm(and I'm not either after one espeically bad min-maxer) , but she's open to homebrew and I'd love to see your version of the charm, espeically if it's more playable or enjyably exploitable.

(Ensnaring an entire city states nobility to wishes is fun for everyone, giving yourself fives in you combat skill, strength and dexterity attributes with just a few charm uses is just boring.)
Wait what? You still have to pay the XP, you just get a break on training time. You cannot have multiple training effects going when you already have XP debt.

The use of VEE self buffing I see is to get the expansion that lets you cancel it and the one that lets you do multiple dots at a time, and then never go into XP debt but instead just install grant yourself dots in whatever you need at the moment and then cancel them imediately after. You basically become Worm's Uber.
 
Yikes. So, the important question: does Keris owe her any favours?
Are you kidding? Keris owes her a tonne of favours. Sasi isn't stupid, and Keris wasn't kidding in the slightest when she described herself as "one of the most lethal things in Creation". Damn straight she got as many favours out of Keris as she could in the early stages of their acquaintance - most especially when she agreed to help in Matasque and even more when she agreed to go to Nexus and aid Keris in taking down Kasseni. Oh, she wasn't nearly as obvious about it with the "would you like", and she's more or less stopped now that she has a decent amount of insurance and is starting to believe that Keris a) really does love her and b) isn't going to flense that away and engage murder mode on a casual whim.

But trust me, Sasi is very much aware that dealing with something as Adorjani as Keris is like riding a tiger. Even if it loves you. Especially if it loves you. Does Keris show any signs of hurting the things she loves like Adorjan does? Well... uh, yes, actually, though not in the same way, and the circumstances aren't likely to apply to Sasi. But she has still made very, very sure that if Keris ever turns on her, she'll have insurance in the form of botches to call on. Because she knows damn well that a straight, "fair" fight between her and Keris would be over very quickly and would leave Sasi splattered all over the walls and then inhaled and forgotten.

TL,DR: Sasi has trust issues. In fact, Sasi has trust Issues. In the same way that Geasa has Issues with the Dead, and Keris has Issues with the Scavenger Lands slave trade.
 
Ah, characters with Issues. Perfect drama material.

I mean, one of my planned/want to play characters has major regret issues, as well as everything that goes along with Exalting (as an Abyssal) at seventeen.

The other…

Uh. Actually, Chiyoko's a well-balanced individual, despite being an orphan. Most of her personal character arc would/will revolve around the realisation and getting through the fact that she's going to long outlive almost everyone she cares about.
 
Actually, Chiyoko's a well-balanced individual, despite being an orphan. Most of her personal character arc would/will revolve around the realisation and getting through the fact that she's going to long outlive almost everyone she cares about.
Well, there's a solution to that problem: find a way to catch their hun soul before it goes to Lethe and stuff it into a baby at whichever point a hun soul would normally attach.

Admittedly, succeeding at this would cause all kinds of other problems, but "fixing the problems caused by your solution to the last problem" is a big part of what Exalted is all about.
 
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