Powerful second circles, When they are feeling generous, they allow their retinue to ride upon them.

Great. Now I'm actually going to try and do a write-up of them.
... uh. Second Circles are unique entities. You're not going to find a bunch of identical Second Circles who are all very similar - or if you do, it would be very, very strange. If you want multiple better-than-First-Circle creatures, it'd probably be best to have them be behemoths created by a powerful Second or a Third Circle demon.
 
So, in 3e what would be the implications of bringing back Immanent Solar Glory for all the Abilities that used to have it? It was very strong in 2.X because of the rocket tag nature of combat, but with lethality being largely fixed you don't need the motes as bad. But since mote generation in general has been reined in, would it be too much?
Ugh, mote pool expanders. OK, here's the thing: sooner or later, these become necessary purchases, particularly if anyone invests in them. Because +10 motes is a substantial advantage, and the upper end of +50 breaks the game. This holds as true in 3e as it does in 2e: most combats I have seen burn motes aggressively, no matter if your a frontliner or running from the fight. In many ways 3e is considerably more mote hungry, because I(A)M is gone (thank god) and thus you are spending motes on Excellencies or Excellency likes all the time.

So the implications are 'at mid-level, you must invest in these to be viable if anyone does at all'. You ran into this with 2e as well, BTW: my current game we had to make a few so that the DB could stay competitive. It's honestly not worth it either: their main utility is prolonging combat, which... look, do you really want longer Exalted combat?
... uh. Second Circles are unique entities. You're not going to find a bunch of identical Second Circles who are all very similar - or if you do, it would be very, very strange. If you want multiple better-than-First-Circle creatures, it'd probably be best to have them be behemoths created by a powerful Second or a Third Circle demon.
Well, Autochthon has a bunch of basically identical 2CD equivalents.

Which does basically prove your point.
 
Well, Autochthon has a bunch of basically identical 2CD equivalents.

Which does basically prove your point.
Autochthon doesn't really have Second Circles, in the sense that Yozis do. His soul-structure is too mutilated. He has the Divine Ministers, and then mass-produced ex-machina; some of which are more powerful than others, but none of which are really souls-of-his-souls with unique identities and legends the way that, say, Berengiere or Lucien are.
 
Eh, giant sand worms can be pretty easily done as First Circles, made either as a beast of burden or as a way to clean up the desert.

They are just big enough and docile enough to be useful as a beast of burden no matter what happened, and the waste product of their passage has a few useful (and very dangerous) effects. Including a degree of apparent prescience that instead of actually telling you will happen tells you what the progenitor Yozi wants to happen and finds likely.
 
Can an Exalted make something more powerful than they are? For example, could an Infernal martial artist make a behemoth that is better than he is?
 
Things about ex3 and motes
I hope then that the other Splat will have the equivalent of Stillness-Drawing Meditation and Trance of Fugue Vision.

Of course, i think they are meant to be the Performance equivalent of regaining motes in battle(Which seem to me a very stupid thing), but using Voice of the Night Bird with them allow a Solar up to 15 motes regained for turn.
 
... uh. Second Circles are unique entities. You're not going to find a bunch of identical Second Circles who are all very similar - or if you do, it would be very, very strange. If you want multiple better-than-First-Circle creatures, it'd probably be best to have them be behemoths created by a powerful Second or a Third Circle demon.
Pretty much this, though with >3000 Second Circles there's going to be some similarities.

Though if they were behemoths, could they still be summoned and bound?
 
Can an Exalted make something more powerful than they are? For example, could an Infernal martial artist make a behemoth that is better than he is?

In theory?

Yes.

In reality, the situation is more complicated. Not least of which because the Exaltations are the result of the combined efforts of a number of hilariously powerful beings, several of which have powers that boil down to 'I don't care about what reality says, but this is better than anything that ever existed, exists, ever will exist (including quite possibly my own attempts to top this), as well as anything that will not ever, can not ever, has not ever and shall not ever possibly exist within this world or any other.'

Creating something that's more powerful than the Exaltation itself? That might well be beyond any being nowadays. But something that's more powerful or skilled in a given skill set? Maybe.

Yet even then it matters what skill set we're talking about. I'd certainly deem it possible that an Exalt manages to create or train a being to be a better swordsman or weaver than they are. This person is probably also an Exalt, but needs not be so. An Infernal Martial Art master should be able with great effort be able to create a Behemoth that knows a Sidereal Style level Martial Art, although its entire existence would be focused around knowing it, unable to teach it and the Style would be focused around something that's conceptually a major if esothoric concept of Malfeas, rather than Creation.

Pretty much this, though with >3000 Second Circles there's going to be some similarities.

Though if they were behemoths, could they still be summoned and bound?


Maybe? You'd probably need a Summon Behemoth spell, and hope that the Behemoth you are calling upon is part of a Yozi's soul structure.
 
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Annoying question: So when is the date of arrival?
The return of the solars was heralded by a Solar Eclipse, right?
Then..... next solar Eclipse is the Thirtenth of september, but it only hits south africa and antartica. The next solar eclipse to hit the united states is august 21 2017.

Here! The date has been revealed! Now you can all quiver in anticipation.
 
What's the difference between a first circle demon and a behemoth aside from power levels?
The biggest and most important difference that I can think about is that Behemoth's are completely divorced from the Demon Soul Structure. They can't be summoned and bound using demon summoning spells that key off the surrender oaths, AFAIK they can't be sorcerously banished back to Malfeas if they manage to get into Creation (you'd have to physically drag them back), and I don't think they even need to be made with Primordial magic. Exalted can make Behemoths with the right skills (And enough power), as could Undead, Gods, and Fair Folk.
 
If you want a Sandworm and don't want to make it a 1CD or an Earth elemental, then just make it something summonable with its own unique spell ala the Minions of the Eyeless Face.

You probably want to make it Sapphire Circle if you want it to be really impressive - maybe even Adamant Circle if you want a real Shai Halud who can eat large amounts of a Realm Legion. It's going to probably involve a ritual to summon it, using drums and people walking with rhythm.
 
They can't be summoned and bound using demon summoning spells that key off the surrender oaths,
I'm pretty sure this is never explicitly stated anywhere. You'd need a special spell to summon one, though, like Minions of the Eyeless Face.

AFAIK they can't be sorcerously banished back to Malfeas if they manage to get into Creation (you'd have to physically drag them back)
This would be a huge (and obvious) loophole in the surrender oaths, so I'd be shocked if it were true. I'm quite confident they apply to all the creations of the Yozi, not merely the Yozi themselves.
 
If you want a Sandworm and don't want to make it a 1CD or an Earth elemental, then just make it something summonable with its own unique spell ala the Minions of the Eyeless Face.

You probably want to make it Sapphire Circle if you want it to be really impressive - maybe even Adamant Circle if you want a real Shai Halud who can eat large amounts of a Realm Legion. It's going to probably involve a ritual to summon it, using drums and people walking with rhythm.
Bit of a catch-22 though. If you walk without rhythm, you'll never learn.
 
This would be a huge (and obvious) loophole in the surrender oaths, so I'd be shocked if it were true. I'm quite confident they apply to all the creations of the Yozi, not merely the Yozi themselves.
Lintha Ng Oroo is still swimming around, and IIRC it was mentioned that behemoths had to be rounded up and forced into Malfeas afterwards.

It probably has to do with how much free will the behemoth in question has. The Gods were ordered to order the Exalted to stand down, but that didn't work to well. Behemoths could probably ignore the Yozis ordering them to surrender to the Exalted just the same.
 
What's the difference between a first circle demon and a behemoth aside from power levels?

Most Behemoths tend to be one of a kind weirdness, either designed that way by mad primordial hands or changed in ways few understand after exposure to things that should have been left alone. Generally behemoth is a catch all term for 'one of a kind weirdness who the developers don't want to spend time expanding on their creation or origins'.

Unless they are Underworld themed, in which case they are called Hekatonkhires and formed from either the 'ghosts' of dead Behemoths or the nightmares of the Neverborn themselves. Generally have something to do with the neverborn (the memories of their 3cds are thought to have formed some) . Unlike Behomths, Hekatonkhires tend to be a bit more 'predictable'... and can actually be summoned and bound by a Void Circle necromancer.


First Circle Demons are mass produced spirits created to fill some kind of purpose (even if that purpose is just to give their master something to crush and torment).
 
Not if the surrender oaths include a 'we won't send or let our creations wander into Creation without a proper Summoning' clause.
That's the big one, but I would hold that nothing else is needed for banishment, which is merely the inverse of summoning,

Lintha Ng Oroo is still swimming around, and IIRC it was mentioned that behemoths had to be rounded up and forced into Malfeas afterwards.
Yes, but any new ones they created going forward would surely be just as bound as they. Not to say that they have never found loopholes, especially when the Exalted were involved...

It probably has to do with how much free will the behemoth in question has. The Gods were ordered to order the Exalted to stand down, but that didn't work to well.
You mean the bit where the Unconquered Sun told the Primordials to go fuck themselves and went back to running his rebellion?
 
That's... really thought-through- and yeah, Autocthonian combat's going to be a lot more small-unit actions than in Creation (which is called out in Compass: Autocthon, IIRC).
Well thought out and plausible.
Nice work.
Thanks!


I have a whole bunch of other notes about various other things primarily revolving around Autochthon, Alchemicals and games involving the two, both of a analyzing-canon nature and suggested-alternative fanon, if anyone has any particular requests. The scarcity of good material (and inconsistency of the existing, fan-made or otherwise), has meant I've had to think about them a lot, given how its one of my favorite sections in the whole game.

Like this bit in particular, posted at @Shyft's request, trying my hand at some homebrew Thaumathurgy and something of a history-lesson to inject back in a little more of that "Mesoamerican" feel from the initial concept within Time of Tumult.


Blood-Thaumaturgy:

In Creation, blood is a powerful tool and vital force quickly turned to dark ends. Blood rites and sacrifices attract vengeful ghosts and spirits of murder or disease, while mass-bloodletting fuel the shadowlands that blight the landscape with Underworld influence. But in Autochthonia there are no dark spirits lusting for ancestor worship, no Underworld and no broken cycle of death and rebirth. Instead several millennia of cultural divergence, disease-free environments and a rarity of true essence wielders has changed the common attitude to one of clinical practicality. Blood is life, life is essence, and essence is power. Although it may seem unsavory and unclean to outsiders, blood is readily available to anyone capable and willing to weild it for the Maker's service.

Blood-working started in the darkness of Autochthon's corridors shortly after his exodus from Creation. As the most intelligent blood-bearing species within Autochthonia, and still decades away from widespread knowledge of how to tap the Great Maker's veins, humanity adapted to this alien world by utilizing the only renewable source of essence to be had. The first developments that would become the Science of Sanguinotics were clumsy and barbaric, little more than self-mutilation and formalized human sacrifice to power crude thaumaturgic repairs, spirit summonings and essence-hungry devices. Prisoners from minor conflicts, criminals and those crippled by industrial mismanagement were pushed forward to placate the vast machines, which continued to operate only while steeped in blood. If the Great Maker could give so freely of himself, these small gestures were the least that could be paid for such magnanimity.

During this time the applications were minimal, but the Science spread quickly because the simple rituals required nothing save the practitioner's own persistence and pain threshold. Gradually as medical technology became more refined among the maturing nations, so did the processes of blood retrieval and transfusion. No longer was the brutal hacking and slicing of the past needed when anesthetic-tipped needles and storage crystals removed the pain, mess and barbaric traditions of the practice. These days only the tunnel people and desperate exiles revert to sawing at her own flesh and maiming the bodies of others to work the natural sciences.

Many blood-powered tools are now extremely clinical in application, self-cleaning and extract only a large enough sample to sustain the designed functions for a short time. These artifacts include the colloquially titled Hemogauntlet (Artifact 1), an articulated metal glove which allows the user to painlessly expel one Health Level in blood from either her palm or ports on the fingertips, the latter most useful for creating drawn diagrams and wards. The user never suffers wound penalties from Health levels drained in this way.

Injection braces (Artifact 2 to 3) work along an identical premise, long metal sleeves that cover the forearm to the wrist with an array of glass tubes extending from the back. With only a slight sting the brace may fill one of these removable vials with a single Health Level worth of blood for easy transport, but its true use comes when a concealed button is pressed on the inside wrist. Essence is drained from the sample and used to transmute the remaining fluid into a single alchemical formula programmed into the brace, such as Munificent Antivenin or Venom-Allaying Draught (Oadenol's Codex, p.130-131), and may inject it back into the wearer instantly. Each brace has a rating equal to (the Minimum Degree of its formula +1) and has an attunement of 4 motes.

Long-term components like artificial limbs recycle essence-tapped blood harmlessly back into the user through Organic Power Cells (Artifact 1), removing the need for constant recharging. Power cells are constructed similarly to Aegis-Inset Amulets (Wonders of the Lost Age, p.71), save that they apply a 3 mote reduction to the attune cost of any attached artifact. Instead the cells draw on their user more directly, requiring the "commitment" of a single Health Level which cannot be healed so long as the Cell remains in operation.


Fighting in the Blood:

For the early years of Autochthonian civilization, blood-essence was immediately seized upon by militant factions and weaponized against both raiders and aggressively encroaching spirits. But these early war-rites were as self-destructive as potent, and the turbulent years of petty warfare eventually decimated nearly all who relied on such power to thrive. Of the surviving practices most now only see use in tunnel people skirmishes, but some have been perfected over time into specialized martial arts, two of which feature heavily into the elite combat forces of Estasia.

Of the two, Unwavering Patriot is the art of heroic sacrifice and impassioned final stands, holding the line with the strength of tempered metal until the last drop of the user's blood falls. It is an emergency backup plan for Estasia's militate, typically only used so the wounded and defenseless can be evacuated in the face of unwinnable odds. Its sister-style is known as the Red-Eyed Fiend, for both the crimson haze that washes across the vision of its users and the first symptom of terminal-overuse: extreme cases of burst vessels within the eyes. In most cases the style is a last resort for an already mortally-wounded soldier, because while it grants incredible fortitude and lightning quickness, literally jolting her body into reaction, it exacts as much harm to the user as her enemies.

Normally the Estasian tripartite would not approve the teaching or practice of such defeatist tactics among the highly-trained martial artist elite, but history has proven the effectiveness of the arts one too many times. One Red-Eyed Fiend stylist by the name of Jekson, immortalized among the Populat as 'the Firelung,' drove back an enraged gezlak from undefended residential areas for almost three hours before succumbing to his smouldering wounds. He physically grappled with the creature single-handedly, shouting obscenities even after it's searing heat set alight the chemical painkillers on his breath. Word of this gallant defense galvanized many among Estasia's national tripartite, handing off a perfect avenue to reassert the unstoppable endurance of the Militate through a disposable figurehead. Jekson was enshrined as a national hero and the arts persisted with his legend.


The Problem with Creation

With the Seal of Eight Divinities opened the eight nations will rapidly expand thaumaturgy-use outside of Autochthon's infinite borders, but it will be unprepared for the dangers of Creation. The immaculately clean and well-maintained corridors of the Great Maker's body are a far safer place to be opening veins with frequency, and any Autochthonian foothold will soon have an inexplicable surge of infection and disease among maintenance workers and field medics. Ghosts, unsavory spirits and undead will flock towards encampments and extended infastructure, particularly those warded with blood-symbols. Returning explorers will need to be heavily decontaminated to prevent outbreaks following back through the Seal, and the belief that this new and frightening world is hostile to life, if not cursed, will rumble through the Populat and Tripartite alike.

Eventually steps will be taken by the most enterprising Sodalites among the Scholars and Surgeons to ensure the health and well-being of forces sent beyond. New off-world medical standards will be instituted requiring filter masks with full-body containment suits and organizing blood-offerings only from nearby animal populations. But for the mortal leadership of Autochthonia, the damage will already be done. This poor first impression of Creation will extend to any local natives the initial expeditions meet, mistrustfully holding at arms-length until possible contamination risks can be determined. Negotiations and diplomatic entreaties may sour before even begun, as only Champions will be permitted direct contact. Rumors of the 'invasion' by blood-sucking metal locusts who walk like men could stretch as far distant as the Realm itself, pushed out of ignorance or self-interested parties, adding an increasing difficulty for peaceful explorers looking for common ground.


The Science of Sanguinotics

Unlike other Sciences adapted to understanding the greater world, the Science of Sanguinotics is extremely intimate, focusing on the relation of the thaumaturge to the essence and tools she wields. Despite gruesome practices in Creation, the working of blood has become an established institution of mortal power, focused almost exclusively on the thaumaturge giving of herself to aid the state. Blood-working does not typically require a devoted workshop, special tools and exotic ingredients. In fact much of the Science is dedicated to the factory, clinic and the battlefield in equal measure, while the very act of ritually offering blood to fuel her magic fills the extravagant materials costs normally needed to work the sciences. Because of this, many of the rituals listed here are the first thaumaturgy most would-be occultists learn, mastering blood before eventually turning to advanced wings of other Sciences.

Other thaumaturgy within the Science of Sanguinotics include Essence Sense, initially from the Art of Geomancy, keyed solely to supernatural or thaumaturgical effects on living beings in a medical capacity, in addition to the Blood Magic and Body-Preservation Technique procedures from the Arts of the Dead, and Aegis-Inset Amulets (as Organic Power Cells, above) from the Art of Enchantment. Of these cross-Science procedures, Blood Magic (Oadenol's Codex, p.134) is the most immediately useful to a practitioner, as it allows her to create the offerings which can fuel other rites within this and additional Sciences.

(For reference - format is Name (Minimum Degree, Attribute, Difficulty, Casting Time): Effect.)

Biochemical Testing (0, Intelligence, 1, one hour): The thaumaturge analyzes a given blood sample using an array of alchemical solvents and distillation beakers (Class 3+ or Backing with the Meticulous Surgeons, but Resources 2 outside Autochthonia). This creates a Blood Profile for a given sample, listing diseases or poisons within it, species of the sample, essence-type (if capable of channeling essence), and other medically-appropriate traits. Consulting multiple Profiles also can be used in determining parentage/ancestry for a prepared sample, or those with a similar bloodline. The last case is used most often between related-bloodline thaumaturges sharing prepared offerings.

Bloodsealing (0, Stamina, 1, one Action): Through the use of arcane markings drawn in or around the offering of blood, the thaumaturge may imbue a blood offering so it remains "fresh" for the purposes of ritual use up to one hour exposed to the elements, or even a day while carefully stored. It will not dry, clot or freeze, even in the most inclement weather. This offering can be used only by the thaumaturge who sealed it, or a close-relative who shares her blood, prompting many technicians to carry a previously prepared vial with them for emergencies. Long duration thaumaturgy rites performed by the technician utilizing the offering, such as Warding or Summoning, treat this offering as providing 1 additional mote of essence for every success rolled over the ritual Difficulty of the seal, to a maximum of her Degree. The same complex sigil may be drawn on the practitioner's body to instantly close wounds and stop bleeding, though it does not prevent infection risk.

Lesser Essence-Transfusion (0, Charisma, 3, Artifact rating in hours): Daubing the key essence-conducting points of an Artifact with pinpricks of blood to establish a symbiotic connection, the thaumaturge carefully cajoles the small god of the device back into operation. If the Artifact has begun to lose capabilities due to lapsed maintenance, one is restored at the completion of the ritual and continues to function until its next maintenance interval. Should the Artifact have ceased to work entirely, it surges back to life at bare-minimum capability (utilizing no functions that would need maintenance to repair) until the next maintenance interval, whereupon it deactivates once more.

Greater Essence-Transfusion (2, Charisma, 5, Artifact rating in hours): Performed similarly to the Lesser rite, this form traditionally includes special prayers made to the attract the small god's attention, but occasionally blows and unrestrained bouts of harsh language. With a success the Artifact leaps back to full capability for a single maintenance interval, showing no further signs of wear and misuse so long as the thaumaturge is the one operating it. But this temporary overcharge causes the device to immediately and forcibly deactivate at the end of the allotted time, doubling its next interval length to repair to working condition. The Artifact cannot be subject to another use of this ritual or the lesser form until it has been fully repaired.

Pain-Sapping Plasma Inurement (1, Intelligence + Medicine, 3, one Miscellaneous action): If the technician herself as been injured in some way not of her own devising, she may draw out the pain of her wound into the blood leaking from it, creating a more potent offering. This rite creates an offering similar to that of the Blood Magic procedure, save it consists of one mote per level of damage the thaumaturge has suffered within the past two combat actions, adding a number of motes equal to her current Wound penalty. In addition she feels no pain from her injuries for the next five minutes, and may use this pain-relieving effect on others (though it does not give essence for doing so).

Body-Machine Sympathy Maintenance (2, Wits, Artifact rating, one hour): The technician anoints a disused or broken Artifact with a blood offering, scribing it with essence-channeling diagrams and markings. Essence from the offering is not wasted, but instead transferred to the small god of the device or tool, bolstering it to aid in future repair work. For every 2 motes devoted from the ritual offering, the technician's Craft, Lore or Occult rating is treated as 1 dot higher for the purposes of meeting Repair minimums. She cannot improve her chances more than 1 dot in each trait per level of Degree she knows, with a minimum of 1. This lasts for the next day of repairs before fading.

If purchased as a Procedure without a Degree, the thaumaturge may only apply this ritual to one class of artifact she is most familiar with repairing such as transport vehicles, industrial exoskeletons, collapsible weapons, etc. Each Procedure must be purchased individually.

Vital-Essence Vaporization (3, Intelligence, 4, one minute): Using special filings of combustible metals and salts, the technician prepares her blood offering and ignites it with a spark, sending up an invisible cloud of essence. Only beings with essence-sight may witness its formation, but the cloud remains stagnant for a single Action after the ritual resolves before dispersing into the environment. With a success on this rite the technician may grasp and shape this airborne essence into a 'peripheral pool' of motes consisting of the amount it would grant as an offering. This pool is not part of the thaumaturge, but she may use its sympathetic connection to pay for Charms and spells she knows until it dissipates at the end of one minute, even if she is enlightened and has no motes remaining in her essence pool.

Storage vials of blood may be prepared in this way long before being used. These makeshift grenades ignite once smashed, and may offer no benefit if the thaumaturge is too far away from the point of impact. If she prepared blood from her own wounds into an offering before invoking this ritual, or used Pain-Sapping Plasma Inurement to create one, the sharp stinging pain of igniting her own blood increases her wound penalties by 1, which cannot be reduced by that ritual or other thaumaturgy. Applying Vital-Essence Vaporization to a fresh wound waives the normal preparation time to cast to a single Miscellaneous action, as the rite instantly cauterizes the wound of disease and impurity with a sizzle of burnt flesh.


Would more of that be of interest to anyone, and/or just more looking at the canon-pieces and how they hang together (or not)?
 
You mean the bit where the Unconquered Sun told the Primordials to go fuck themselves and went back to running his rebellion?

No, the bit where the Unconquered Sun ordered the Solars to stand down and the Solars said "We get it boss, don't worry we'll keep fighting."

moep Infernals said:
These two arguments did not completely alleviate Malfeas's
worry that the Green Sun Princes would work some
wretched treachery upon them all, but they did convince him
to revoke his objections. She Who Lives in Her Name was
not convinced, however, and the Ebon Dragon was forced
to resort to his third argument. It made him uncomfortable
to do so, for it was a painful reminder of their first failure in
the Primordial War. When the war began, the Ebon Dragon
reminded them, the Primordials had ordered the gods to force
their Exalts to stand down and cease all hostilities. The gods
rankled as they gave that order, but they had no choice. Yet
the Exalted, the gods revealed, were free to do as they chose,
and they chose to continue fighting.
 
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