- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I was thinking more "undead D&D kobolds" as I wrote it, but given the absence of draconic themes they might have come out looking more like Minions. I knew I was forgetting something...
General Exalted Thread
Eukie
Powered by furious Canadian redheads
It feels really outside what I imagine Solars as. Creating multiple personalities and rewriting your core self to gain an advantage feels like an Infernal thing, or maybe Alchemical, rather than a Solar thing. When I read that, my first thought was "Peter Watts?", which is like the antithesis to what I'd imagined as the conceptual space of Solars.
Changes to the fundamental self and radical transhumanism strikes me as more of either part of the Alchemical conceptual space (being self-augmentation and cybernetics), or part of the Infernal conceptual space (being thematically about the psychological changes you enforce upon yourself). I could even stretch to seeing it inside the Lunar concept-space, since it's about adaptation, but it doesn't feel like a Solar thing at all. It's not the direct, forceful effects of a radiant warrior god-king.
Also, it acts as an XP multiplier. Bad idea!
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Well, Solar skill should absolutely be able to produce alternate personalities. Self-brainwashing has always been the bedrock on which stands Solar Integrity, and the spy who creates an identity so complete even they believe it is something that Solar Larceny should clearly cater to.
I'm not a particular fan of that set of Charms, but that's down mainly to the specifics of their execution, most prominently the multiple-character-sheet and pull-ability-dots-from-the-ether bits. If someone had asked me to write this in 2e, then it would have been one Charm, probably in Larceny, maybe in Integrity, maybe in Socialize if I could find the right prerequisite. It would let you develop a false personality by meditating for a while, swapping out your memories, intimacies and Motivation. You'd gain limit for working against your actual Motivation, and you could also suppress any Ability dots you had that didn't suit the concept of this personality. Maybe an upgrade to let you internalize a persona as something you could freely swap out to.
I'm not a particular fan of that set of Charms, but that's down mainly to the specifics of their execution, most prominently the multiple-character-sheet and pull-ability-dots-from-the-ether bits. If someone had asked me to write this in 2e, then it would have been one Charm, probably in Larceny, maybe in Integrity, maybe in Socialize if I could find the right prerequisite. It would let you develop a false personality by meditating for a while, swapping out your memories, intimacies and Motivation. You'd gain limit for working against your actual Motivation, and you could also suppress any Ability dots you had that didn't suit the concept of this personality. Maybe an upgrade to let you internalize a persona as something you could freely swap out to.
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- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think the issue here is precisely one of "core sets" - Ex3 clearly doesn't want to use the model of previous WW games where the core gives you the most common, straightforward aspects of your supernatural powers, and then provides quirkier, more niche aspects in supplements. Rather, it tries to see just how far an Ability can be pushed, setting immediately the upper boundaries and demonstrating the entire scope of the Ability, quirks and niches and all. Niche Charms in supplements will probably still happen, but seem intended to be an even more minor thing than usual, and the limits of just how "out there" Solar Charms can get are already set by some of the crazy stuff in the core.
There are benefits and drawbacks to this approach, but... years of playing White Wolf games and dealing with the problems that arise from having all the weird quirky stuff in supplements (beyond the obvious practical/monetary issues of buying so many books and browsing them all at once) make me very sympathetic to that approach.
There are benefits and drawbacks to this approach, but... years of playing White Wolf games and dealing with the problems that arise from having all the weird quirky stuff in supplements (beyond the obvious practical/monetary issues of buying so many books and browsing them all at once) make me very sympathetic to that approach.
FaeGlade Plural
Semper Legens
- Location
- Land of Bureaucracy
- Pronouns
- Plural/They
Well the whole chain starts with charms that enhance your Guile (Night Passes Over, Shadow Over Day, Guarded Thoughts Meditation), making it harder to read your intentions and intimacies.
Then you learn to shed an Intimacy into your anima/Exaltation, making it unreadable (Penumbra Self Meditation).
Those are pretty harmless to yourself.
The next charm allows you to forcefully twist how others perceive you (Inverted Ego Mask). This creates a faux-intimacy opposed to one of your actual ones, which others perceive instead of the real one (e.g they think you are a follower of the Immaculate Faith when you actually hate it).
It comes at a risk though - if you experience Limit Break before the end of the Story, the Intimacy becomes real for that story because you twisted things too much. Pretty clearly an interaction with the Great Curse IMO.
Then we get into the Persona-charms.
Heart-Eclipsing Shroud already carries the risk that your Personas Intimacies are carried over into each other or your real self, though I am not clear on the mechanics (what exactly does "voiding social influence" mean?)
Legend-Mask Methodology also has a risk of transferring Intimacies, though again with unclear mechanics (well it IS a leaked document).
Draw the Curtain gives you an additional Limit Trigger, and you'll probably purchase it multiple times...
Because I kinda forgot to mention, the charm that pushes your Personas XP from 50% to 75% (Draw the Curtain) needs to be purchased once for each persona.
As for multiplying XP:
Yes I can see that becoming an Issue.
You can't learn Archery, Awareness, Brawl (Martial Arts), Craft Dodge, Lore, Melee, Occult Resistance, Thrown and War any higher than your natural abilities with it at least, so that prevents having a "Combat Mode" or a "Crafter Mode" with it.
But that still leaves Athletics, Bureaucracy, Integrity, Investigation, Larceny, Linguistics, Medicine, Performance, Presence, Ride, Sail, Stealth and Survival that you can learn.
Granted, you'll likely have 3 of those at 5 already to maximize your points.
Once you can learn charms, I can also see an issue with people doing this:
Learn Craft 5 normally. For covering multiple crafts, there is a charm for that (Supreme Celestial Focus) that should work for Personas as well.
There's nothing prohibiting you from solely spending Persona-XP on Craft-charms. Or buying the basic ones with normal XP and adding to that with Persona-XP.
Similar things can be done with Lore or Occult - or indeed any ability. Have some basic Melee charms, a persona with Melee 5 and learn some additional Melee-charms in that Persona.
I really like the overall concept and with a GM looking for such abuse it's not much of a problem IMO. But yes without that it's problematic.
Then you learn to shed an Intimacy into your anima/Exaltation, making it unreadable (Penumbra Self Meditation).
Those are pretty harmless to yourself.
The next charm allows you to forcefully twist how others perceive you (Inverted Ego Mask). This creates a faux-intimacy opposed to one of your actual ones, which others perceive instead of the real one (e.g they think you are a follower of the Immaculate Faith when you actually hate it).
It comes at a risk though - if you experience Limit Break before the end of the Story, the Intimacy becomes real for that story because you twisted things too much. Pretty clearly an interaction with the Great Curse IMO.
Then we get into the Persona-charms.
Heart-Eclipsing Shroud already carries the risk that your Personas Intimacies are carried over into each other or your real self, though I am not clear on the mechanics (what exactly does "voiding social influence" mean?)
Legend-Mask Methodology also has a risk of transferring Intimacies, though again with unclear mechanics (well it IS a leaked document).
Draw the Curtain gives you an additional Limit Trigger, and you'll probably purchase it multiple times...
Because I kinda forgot to mention, the charm that pushes your Personas XP from 50% to 75% (Draw the Curtain) needs to be purchased once for each persona.
As for multiplying XP:
Yes I can see that becoming an Issue.
You can't learn Archery, Awareness, Brawl (Martial Arts), Craft Dodge, Lore, Melee, Occult Resistance, Thrown and War any higher than your natural abilities with it at least, so that prevents having a "Combat Mode" or a "Crafter Mode" with it.
But that still leaves Athletics, Bureaucracy, Integrity, Investigation, Larceny, Linguistics, Medicine, Performance, Presence, Ride, Sail, Stealth and Survival that you can learn.
Granted, you'll likely have 3 of those at 5 already to maximize your points.
Once you can learn charms, I can also see an issue with people doing this:
Learn Craft 5 normally. For covering multiple crafts, there is a charm for that (Supreme Celestial Focus) that should work for Personas as well.
There's nothing prohibiting you from solely spending Persona-XP on Craft-charms. Or buying the basic ones with normal XP and adding to that with Persona-XP.
Similar things can be done with Lore or Occult - or indeed any ability. Have some basic Melee charms, a persona with Melee 5 and learn some additional Melee-charms in that Persona.
I really like the overall concept and with a GM looking for such abuse it's not much of a problem IMO. But yes without that it's problematic.
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Can anyone see any word about how much additional Shaping Rituals after the first cost?
Solars get one for for free each time they initiate into a Circle of Sorcery, and mortals can get their first (and usually only) ritual as a five-dot Merit with a minimum requirement of Occult 3... but while the system implies that both can get more rituals than those, I can't find any rules, guidelines or XP costs for it.
Aside from that seemingly accidental omission, still loving the new sorcery.
Kirisame Marisa can now be (or at least begin as) a mortal sorceress who started with the Soul-Perfecting Elixir archetype, brewing the odd mushrooms of the Forest of Magic into potions that lend her power where otherwise she has none. It also ties into how her canonical route towards immortality is experimenting with alchemical potions. But the other ritual and all of the archetype's merits just aren't a good fit.
Of course, then she gets the Miniature Hakkero Reactor from Rinnousuke, and she starts purchasing the Sorcerous Artifact-oriented rituals and merits. The first, Awareness-based ritual would need to be replaced with something more appropriate to the reactor; possibly from the Pact with Ifrit Lord examples.
And, of course, the Hakkero's Evocations, if she Exalts before or after she gets it.
I know they're trying to avoid codifying things too much, but I'd have preferred the "archetypes" to have gotten broader names if they're really supposed to be considered archetypes.
We've got two examples of what I'd call the Spirit-Pact Archetype, with a demon and an elemental, which serve as examples for similar pacts with other spirits. We've got a Wyld Sorcery (Oneiromancy?) Archetype which would parallel a Necromantic Sorcery Archetype (in that both draw power from otherworldly regions rather than from forces related to specific individuals).
The Ten-Thousand Eyes thing could have been named the Sorcerous Artifact Archetype, though I don't know how unclear it actually is that you can replace it with other, completely different kinds of Artifact.
And of course, giving NAMES to the specific rituals would have helped for discussions, making them easier to reference quickly.
Solars get one for for free each time they initiate into a Circle of Sorcery, and mortals can get their first (and usually only) ritual as a five-dot Merit with a minimum requirement of Occult 3... but while the system implies that both can get more rituals than those, I can't find any rules, guidelines or XP costs for it.
Aside from that seemingly accidental omission, still loving the new sorcery.
Kirisame Marisa can now be (or at least begin as) a mortal sorceress who started with the Soul-Perfecting Elixir archetype, brewing the odd mushrooms of the Forest of Magic into potions that lend her power where otherwise she has none. It also ties into how her canonical route towards immortality is experimenting with alchemical potions. But the other ritual and all of the archetype's merits just aren't a good fit.
Of course, then she gets the Miniature Hakkero Reactor from Rinnousuke, and she starts purchasing the Sorcerous Artifact-oriented rituals and merits. The first, Awareness-based ritual would need to be replaced with something more appropriate to the reactor; possibly from the Pact with Ifrit Lord examples.
And, of course, the Hakkero's Evocations, if she Exalts before or after she gets it.
I know they're trying to avoid codifying things too much, but I'd have preferred the "archetypes" to have gotten broader names if they're really supposed to be considered archetypes.
We've got two examples of what I'd call the Spirit-Pact Archetype, with a demon and an elemental, which serve as examples for similar pacts with other spirits. We've got a Wyld Sorcery (Oneiromancy?) Archetype which would parallel a Necromantic Sorcery Archetype (in that both draw power from otherworldly regions rather than from forces related to specific individuals).
The Ten-Thousand Eyes thing could have been named the Sorcerous Artifact Archetype, though I don't know how unclear it actually is that you can replace it with other, completely different kinds of Artifact.
And of course, giving NAMES to the specific rituals would have helped for discussions, making them easier to reference quickly.
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Had the same question myself.
As far as I can see, there's absolutely no other word on how to go about getting other Shaping Rituals or what it costs.
So yeah. No clue.
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
Oh, I understand that entirely - it was one of the reasons I identified for the hullabaloo over Celestial Bliss Trick. A fair number of people reacted to the Charm badly on the basis that it shouldn't be a "core" effect, that its existence made a statement about Solars and about the kind of game you were expected to play - except that in 3e, there's no such thing as a "core" effect, because there's a huge number of Charms sitting right there in the core book. There's upsides and downsides to that.
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Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
I'm inclined to side with Revlid on this matter. Having a 'core' set of powers clearly marked out as seperate from the rest, even to the point of publishing them seperately (although that's not the only route; witness Battlefleet Gothic dividing its corebook into basic and advanced rules) has multiple advantages that I think outweigh any possible gain from the alternatives - ease of use for newcomers not least among them.
That's probably the only substantial criticism I'd level at Ex3 as a whole at this point, as opposed to small nitpicks. What I've seen so far tells me it is distinctly not going to be a welcoming system for new players. There's a lot of moving parts, and a lot of places where it expects players to exercise their own judgement, something that newbies are rarely good or comfortable with.
That's probably the only substantial criticism I'd level at Ex3 as a whole at this point, as opposed to small nitpicks. What I've seen so far tells me it is distinctly not going to be a welcoming system for new players. There's a lot of moving parts, and a lot of places where it expects players to exercise their own judgement, something that newbies are rarely good or comfortable with.
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Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
As I said before when critiquing FATE, the later is more of a problem and the former less.
There also seems to be a trends towards "DM's call," which I dislike. the DM always has final say, the point is to give a default, or a set of options.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Indeed.
As a wise man once said, "I want tools to use in the game, not a blank check to do what I want. I can already do what I want."
To be honest, I wouldn't have an issue with the idea of the Corebook providing a more limited and basic Charmset that a later supplement or an addendum later in the book expands upon and pushes the limits. It'd give STs and players both the option to look through a splat's basic mechanics and get a good grounding in them before cracking open the goodie box, instead of being more or less forced to grok the entire thing at once.
Fortuna
Court Astrologonomomancer
It's interesting to think about the complaints about Ex3's requirement of ST interpretation - which I absolutely share - as compared to my own impressions of D&D Next, which also has a lot of emphasis on the DM's call, in particular when it comes to skills and other downtime activities. I think one of the major differences is that Ex3 establishes what effects you can produce, but not how difficult it is to achieve them; by contrast, D&D Next doesn't really establish either. For some reason I prefer D&D's approach rules-wise, but I can't really identify it. Any of the more design-savvy folks want to have a crack at that oddity?
By Next, I'm assuming you meant the playtest version? Because I never noticed that when playing 5th.
Fortuna
Court Astrologonomomancer
Speaking as someone behind the DM screen, D&D 5e's release version feels like it leaves a lot of decisions to me that earlier editions of WotC D&D really didn't, but in a way that gives me power and fluency rather than requiring tricky social and balance negotiations. I don't know how noticeable that is from the player's position.
Aaron Peori
Rest in Peace
One of the keys seems to be that the system is rather binary for most stuff. Like "Do you have enough money? Do you take the time? If yes you succeed!" or "Are you Proficient? If yes you succeed!"
Heck, look at the way it handles searching. If you look in the right place you find it. If you don't you don't. If you look close enough, the DM can call for a Investigate or Perception check for edge cases. Eg, if the jewels are in the hidden wall of the cabinent the PCs find it if they look for hidden walls in the cabinent, if they search the closet, they don't and if they just search the cabinent without saying they are looking for hidden stuff they roll.
It's not quite "Always say Yes or Roll the dice." but its pretty close.
earthboy
(verified ape)
- Location
- NYC
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh wow, they seriously went back to verbal pixel-bitching.
Not really a fan of that myself.
So, we have Wyld archetype for sorcerous rituals, and there will be a Necromantic set later for the Underworld.
I can see a Sidereal set for the Loom of Fate / Pattern Spiders, but I don't really think "Malfeas" works.
Unlike the Wyld, Underworld and Loom of Fate, Malfeas is a person as well as a place. And while it should be possible to make sorcerous pacts with even Third Circle Souls (rather than just Second Circles like Mara), I think any Exalt managing to get enough of a Yozi's attention to form a pact or any kind of relationship should be vanishingly rare.
I know Adjoran had sex with this one Solar in his dreams and gave birth to seven daughters (four of which chose to become Winds), but that doesn't mean Adjoran considered him a person with whom meaningful discourse was possible. Having sex with him might have been little different than me scooping a pillbug up on a leaf and depositing him to a slightly safer spot; it pleased and amused me to do so, but I didn't consider the little thing a person.
Besides, looking at Mara's rituals, it's really easy to get "Infernal" sorcery by making pacts with mere demons, without needing to bother with the Yozi. Which is good for the adjusted focus of the game.
I can see a Sidereal set for the Loom of Fate / Pattern Spiders, but I don't really think "Malfeas" works.
Unlike the Wyld, Underworld and Loom of Fate, Malfeas is a person as well as a place. And while it should be possible to make sorcerous pacts with even Third Circle Souls (rather than just Second Circles like Mara), I think any Exalt managing to get enough of a Yozi's attention to form a pact or any kind of relationship should be vanishingly rare.
I know Adjoran had sex with this one Solar in his dreams and gave birth to seven daughters (four of which chose to become Winds), but that doesn't mean Adjoran considered him a person with whom meaningful discourse was possible. Having sex with him might have been little different than me scooping a pillbug up on a leaf and depositing him to a slightly safer spot; it pleased and amused me to do so, but I didn't consider the little thing a person.
Besides, looking at Mara's rituals, it's really easy to get "Infernal" sorcery by making pacts with mere demons, without needing to bother with the Yozi. Which is good for the adjusted focus of the game.
...with the example they give in the Flaws section of the core rulebook, I find myself wanting to play a blind swordsman/woman who uses Awareness Charms to compensate for their blindness, but I'm not entirely sure which Awareness Charms would compensate for that.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
All of them.
No, don't argue with me.
Take All the Awareness Charms from creation!
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
First one on the list Sensory Acuity Prana, just say your heightened hearing constantly scans the world around you, and your heightened taste and smell lets you know anyone silent nearby.
Since you'll have all the awareness charms, he wont argue
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think I would allow a character with Keen Hearing and Touch Technique active to operate at a -1 penalty in combat, and to completely cancel that penalty with Unsurpassed Hearing and Touch Discipline.
Though there's a definitive advantage to this in that all the benefits you gain against characters you can't see, which are normally stealth-counters, now work against everyone; this might result in a weird situation where being blind is mechanically optimal when it comes strictly to combat.
I'm planning to take Martial Arts as Supernal (for Shining Point), so I can't take ALL THE AWARENESS CHARMS at chargen.
I suspect Omicron has the right of it, and I can get to that point at Essence 1, so it works out pretty well.
- Location
- The sixth circle of Hell (second on weekends)
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah, Keriswise we agreed that since she's averaging like 18 sux average on hearing rolls, she can actually find her way around better with her hearing than with her eyes. She's not even inconvenienced by the lights going out; if anything it only makes her more aware of the space around her from microechoes and shifts in the air as she moves. She likes shutting the lights off or attacking at night. It makes her even deadlier than usual.
Even with Keen Sense Technique you're getting +2 autosux to everything, which means anything you would get on a Diff 2 awareness roll, you know automatically.
Edit: Speaking of Keris, another session will be going up after I've had some sleep. In which my hubris and curiosity came back to bite me.