notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
I know how badly the kickstarter's gone, but what's wrong with how they interact with their audience? I haven't been following the kickstarter closely and I don't go on the official forums.
General Exalted Thread
- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yes, but I'm fine with that. I don't care, really. Criticism about the handling of the Kickstarter, about attitudes towards the audience? About PR, so to speak? Have at it. It's not something I really care to defend - which isn't to say that it's something I care to criticize either; it's just beyond the field of what I bother to be passionate about. I'm interested in the actual product - the game, the finished text. If an appeal to professionality shifts the conversation away to the peripheral aspects of the book's presentation, publishing and marketing? That's fine by me. My point is that once you sit down and open the book, what's inside is good.
The_Reptile_
Jolly Good
- Location
- THE PITS OF HELL. Also known as Connecticut.
Speaking as someone who who does in fact like the majority of the stuff he's seen in 3e uh... let's just say the Devs could stand to have a PR guy as one of their kickstarter goals next time. They have a very bad case of Foot In Mouth syndrome when it comes to fanbase interactions.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
SLS being an asshole is fine. Artists are like that.
SLS being a prick and then lying about in a way such that it's blatantly obvious that he's lying, and furthermore totally unrepentant about his behavior outside of not wanting to explicitly say things that will alienate certain part of the fanbase (but has no qualms about continue to use not at all subtle and condescending implications that fool no one about his actual aims)...
At this point, I think and attitude of "yeah, F- that guy" is perfectly warranted.
both Holden and SLS have proven that they have no idea how to conduct themselves professionally. PR guy... I'd say that's a good idea, but honestly?
SKR was pathfailure's PR guy, and he was an unmitigated disaster. Given the record to date, I'm not sure I have confidence in Onyx Paths ability to understand what a PR guy is for, and no PR guy is better than a SKR equivalent.
SLS being a prick and then lying about in a way such that it's blatantly obvious that he's lying, and furthermore totally unrepentant about his behavior outside of not wanting to explicitly say things that will alienate certain part of the fanbase (but has no qualms about continue to use not at all subtle and condescending implications that fool no one about his actual aims)...
At this point, I think and attitude of "yeah, F- that guy" is perfectly warranted.
both Holden and SLS have proven that they have no idea how to conduct themselves professionally. PR guy... I'd say that's a good idea, but honestly?
SKR was pathfailure's PR guy, and he was an unmitigated disaster. Given the record to date, I'm not sure I have confidence in Onyx Paths ability to understand what a PR guy is for, and no PR guy is better than a SKR equivalent.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
Who is SLS and what did he do/lie about?
This isn't actually damning criticism at all. At best, it measures the amount of investment Exalted fans have, but even if 3e was immaculate (heh), you'd have people trying to tweak it for their own games. Have you read the leak? It has problems but 'fundamentally flawed systems' isn't really one of them. Certainly, things like MA and Craft have (rightly or not) ruffled a lot of feathers and in my opinion the devs' insular attitudes and general public conduct have been extremely... unprofessional to put it politely, but Christ, everything functions. Whether it works for you is a separate discussion.
Actually no; I have insider knowledge
This thread is full of armchair designers who have very strong ideas of what they personally like to play and confuse it for objectively good game design; much like 4chan, it contains a hilarious number of people who think that they have found in a week the incredibly glaring flaws of a system that has spent more than a year in playtesting and gone through more iterations than any other White Wolf game before.
Yeah, no, this is one place where I'm going to agree with everyone else here. There is no possible way that the... what, half-dozen writers poured anywhere close to as many man-hours into testing over the entire three+ years of in house development as what it's undergone in the last week. It's a simple question of scale. You want to talk professional game design? Riot games is by nearly any measure one of the more successful game studio in existence right now. Surely they count? Riot's devs are extremely straightforward about the fact that anything they implement into league will get orders of magnitude more testing once its live in just a couple days than they could ever do inhouse. They embrace it.
And to head off a potential counterpoint, no it doesn't matter that League is a video game and Exalted is a Tabletop RPG. This is about process, and economies of scale, neither of which hinge on the actual product being developed. Their response to the original playtest leak? The one where they reduced their pool of playtesters? Probably the most pants-on-head retarded thing they could have done.
I don't think anyone's suggesting that the selection of styles has no merit, but this is about trade-offs. It is a fact that something has to be cut (according to the last update), what else would you suggest? Parts of the setting chapter? Minor trimming is unlikely to make a big dent in the page count. Sorcery? Very bad idea given that it's one of the systems that's received almost universal praise. The native Charmset? A lot of the trees are fairly intertwined, so that'd require also reworking most of what would remain. The Antagonists section is nearly 200 pages, so there's maybe a lot of room you could free up there, but a lot of them pull double-duty as potential familiars and additional setting info so the drawback is relatively large. Martial Arts is really the obvious place to make cuts because it lacks most of those issues. Removing any one martial art doesn't require reworking any other parts of the book because the system is fairly self-contained. Due to kickstarter obligations, 6 (or 7?) of them must stay, but the others are probably the least-bad thing you could cut.
Something has to go.
According to that RPG net thread, he's the editor. There's a significant difference.
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- Location
- Brittany, France
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Oh, that's absolutely correct!
Or rather, it will be. In, say, a couple months, when the text will have spread, games will have started, and people will have actual play, then we'll see the LoL effect.
But not now, where the overwhelming majority of "gotcha" comments about the "obvious" flaws of the system are theorycrafting and paper balance and generally just plain wrong by people who haven't actually tested the system or seen it in action. Right now, people are talking out of their asses.
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Stephen Lea Sheperd, he was mentioned not long ago.
He has a very blatant bias against certain groups (Mormons specifically came up in one conversation) and can't even be honest enough to admit it, let alone to actually put effort into being fair and rational rather than bigoted.
His poorly managed evasiveness when called on it was almost painful to read.
Have compared the logic of the theory crafting people in D&D 3's fandom with that of the "hey in actual play" guys, I must say that your argument here inspires precisely zero confidence.
logic is logic. I don't need to stick a hand in molten lava to know it's a bad idea.
As a note, on the whole Craft points system, Anyone else thinking that it's going to be a way to lock other exalt types out of high end crafting? Eg: "this color of craft point is only available to solars". On the balance, that might be a less crude method of it than making the requirements too high for anyone and then letting solars pay XP tax to lower them.
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I have some questions about the Path of the Arbiter style, and its armor forging charm in particular. Could that Charm be used to make artifacts that require a hearthstone to power them? Such as a warstrider or hellstrider?
Normally, demons cannot take the Destiny background, and I see no way to overcome that in any of the books. Given the themes of the style making artifacts that represent you, though, would there be a way for a demon that learns the style to get an artifact-four out of the charm that is the hellstrider that could be made using himself as the base for it?
Normally, demons cannot take the Destiny background, and I see no way to overcome that in any of the books. Given the themes of the style making artifacts that represent you, though, would there be a way for a demon that learns the style to get an artifact-four out of the charm that is the hellstrider that could be made using himself as the base for it?
Chloe Sullivan
Subdefective
- Location
- 1630 Revello Drive, Sunnydale CA
Why would you even want to do this?
Destiny is part of the loom, which is why those outside fate can't get it. More relevantly, the form charm of PotA calls upon the authority of heaven, which is a thematically wonky thing for a Demon to do.
Jon Chung
=][=
You don't need League's level of live stress testing or Starcraft II's high level of competitive play to find a problem in a reasonably simple tabletop game, dude.
Math doesn't lie. If there's a problem that can be demonstrated with a reasonably simple description and properly constructed test case (and seeing this system is supposed to be run on human wetware at table in real time with no assumed technological aids beyond a dicebot, this is a given), trying to dismiss any analysis by pulling out the "Lawl you haven't run enough real-world games to have global consensus, that result is meaningless!" routine is pointless.
If there are mechanical problems demonstrated mathematically, address them in the same way. That's the only way you're going to get any traction with the system hacking crowd.
Disclaimer: I don't particularly care about the Exalted line as a consumer at this point, haven't read the leak and generally aren't interested in Exalted 3. This is a general statement about game design and the analysis of systems.
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notthepenguins
Neither Spherical Nor Frictionless
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
He writes as well, unless something has changed since last I checked.
Just keep in mind that, much like 3E D&D, get ready to play the Wizard's packmule if you're a martial character, fuck you if you want to know what the CR is supposed to be, and enjoy a game that consists of Mike Mearls being hellbent on making the most 'Feels Like D&D' edition possible irrespective of all possible design goals.
Or just play 13th Age/Dungeon World if you actually want a Good Game that also meets the very arbitrary value of Feels Like D&D.
Have you read the 3E rules? What do you like or dislike?
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But no, more seriously, how did go from 'some Martial Arts styles can be cut to save space' to Aleph and Havocfett stamping their feet and saying 'yeah the game is bad' without, yanno, at least explaining what they thought was bad? So far all I got is a lot of handwringing over the Doombot charm and I think it's fucking hilarious so...?
Get it. It's the best edition we've got and so far it's a big improvement, irrespective of HavocFett's fixation of selling people on D&D 5th Edition with a lot more enthusiasm than EarthScorpion accused Omicron of having.
Get it. It's the best edition we've got and so far it's a big improvement, irrespective of HavocFett's fixation of selling people on D&D 5th Edition with a lot more enthusiasm than EarthScorpion accused Omicron of having.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
The doombot charm sucks the donkey cock because it combines with the unlimited crafting experience generator to make you immortal!
NO I ALREADY TOLD YOU WHY YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT THAT
And seriously, I don't mean to keep on harping on this, but who the heck shits on Exalted 3E only to hold D&D 5th Edition as the biggest example of good design?
I mean you're allowed to dislike Ex3, don't get me wrong, but I'm flabbergasted that you can point to 5th Ed and say 'yes, this, this is objectively superior.'
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The_Reptile_
Jolly Good
- Location
- THE PITS OF HELL. Also known as Connecticut.
Have you read the 3E rules? What do you like or dislike?
Having read the rules, I can answer that.
I cannot say whether or not the combat is good or not, because I openly admit to being a bad judge on quality of this sort of thing, but I can assure you that it is less tedious with less book keeping than 2e. DV monitoring is not a thing. You have flat Essence Regen disconnected from Stunts. Some might not like this, I do. Pretty much the only Constant Variables as I like to call them are Essence, Initiative and Willpower, which is just fine for me. The Initiative system more or less works as advertised, with players actually now being allowed to hit each other, although in my experience most people will probably not actually throw out Decisive Attacks until they hit Initiative 20+, sooooo Hardness is now still effectively useless. Perfect being a 1 Scene Only type deal, combined with lower lethality thanks to the Initiative System, means the Perfect or Die Phenomenon is no longer a thing, at least at first glance.
Numbers as a whole are generally lower, with I(A)M being tossed into trash compacter. I consider this a good thing, as it means you no longer have easy means of tossing out 30+ dice on a roll and completely ruining the intended balance of an encounter because you didn't keep in mind a single combo destroying everything. Constantly. And it also actually allows more even spread of abilities: You don;t need to be hyper specialized to survive, although Dex is still the Combat Godstat.
In regards to Charms... actually I am in agreement with the Aleph/ES/Eukie camp in that there's just Too Many Fucking Charms, but my best friend who is also super into Exalted is actually in the complete oppossite camp and things some trees should have had MORE, so this is one of those areas that ultimately it very much comes down to personal preference. That said, there are certain Charms like the Doombot Charm and some Performance Charms feel very... questionable.
In terms of Auxillary systems, Mass Combat is actually comprehensible. This alone is a major win in its favor. I went through the Battle Groups rules and actually knew what the fuck they all meant. Sorcery as a whole is great, and seems to be the one part of the book that everyone is in agreement on as being high quality. Social I haven't tested yet, so no word there. Craft is... well Craft seems to be the Universal Not Sure This Is A Good Idea camp. I still haven't given it a good look, but my gut tells me it's confusing.
As for Antagonists, lowered lethality combined with general buffs means certainly things are now actually threats. A Battle Group of mortals is actually a threat. Nephwracks are actually kind of badass now. Octavian is appropriately terrifying. Unfortunately, there's not enough in the Exalt Examples to really give enough to homebrew versions of your own up, but then again that's one of the stated goals of the Exigents books so while I question the decision I ultimately understand it.
In terms of fluff, I actually quite like what I've seen, as the book spends less time detailing the exact history of Creation beyond There Was A First Age. Shit Happened. Then More Shit Happened. Now Solars Are Back, Go Do Things and then just dumps you right into the here and now with the Realm being front and center.
Basically, like I said earlier, I personally really like what I've seen of 3e, but I also admit my knowledge of how game systems work and should be balanced is minimal, but this is what I've managed to gleam from my experiences and first glances with it so far.
Edit: Tl;DR, the game on its base level is more or less functional. There are some questionable design decision in there in multiple areas, no doubt, but as a whole, the game works. I can not really say the same of 2e.
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Admittedly I was just trying to engage people in conversation instead of them just muttering 'it's bad' and expecting that I take them on gospel, but that was an interesting post nonetheless.
Sucal
The Devil’s Cut
- Location
- Bottom of the barrel
Sublime TransferenceNO I ALREADY TOLD YOU WHY YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT THAT
Supreme Celestial Focus
Supreme Perfection of Craft
How aren't those three charms together an infinite crafting XP generator that can be used to pay for more Doombots? It starts off slow and then ramps up the longer the game goes by, especially since Supreme Perfection is paying you out daily. There are a bunch of charms that give you free crafting exp barely doing anything, even ignoring the potential brokeness of Spirit-Stoking Elevation (which when combined with Flowing Mind Prana and its expansions is ANOTHER potentially infinite xp loop, albeit one that requires essence 3 at the earliest before you can take advantage of it.)
Ie pay crafting experience to teach mortals, get proper experience back.
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The_Reptile_
Jolly Good
- Location
- THE PITS OF HELL. Also known as Connecticut.
Yeah, like I said the Craft stuff is the part of the game that everyone seems to be making unsure gestures at, even those who are liking 3e.
I have read the rules, and there's nothing that says any crafting point type is only available to Solars.
(I think it's better than 2e's approach to crafting. And that's the major point I'll make: even in the areas where this doesn't shine, it's a superior product to 2e IMO)
Anondylar
Lazy Tortoise
- Location
- Procrastinationville
Haven't got past Linguistics charms due to the ridiculous amount of charm bloat but in general:Have you read the 3E rules? What do you like or dislike?
I like how combat and mass combat seem to be much more non-lethal yet allow you to see who has an advantage. There's still a preponderance of subsystems that I can't be bothered to read right now though.
As mentioned, charm bloat is ridiculous. I have trouble parsing charms within individual abilities with each other and I can't imagine how a ST new to Exalted would even begin to handle it. Most of them are also far more complex than they were in 2E, with some charms taking paragraphs to describe if/or/when/maybe add/reroll/reroll-until-no-more/doubles 1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9/10. I mean jesus christ just look at Heaven Thunder Hammer. If you roll this many successes blah blah blah suffers from a short length fall if moar sux medium length fall if even moar sux he goes whoosh and medium length fall. I can't be arsed to look at the rules for falling, why can't it be concise and extremely clear like 2E?
Beyond that, there are like five charms that do nothing except enhance Wyld Shaping Technique in Lore. I hated charms that did nothing except give you a boring passive permanent effect. Why were they brought back? Lore and Craft have xp generation charms, which is just utterly baffling. Why would you give players a charm that generates xp? The only point for that is to a), make it an investment that repays for itself because the entire line of charms is mostly useless until you reach the end, b) let some players get to a higher Essence quicker.
I really like Dodge's ablative -0 health levels though.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Because 5e is a decently designed game, obviously.
CR is pretty clearly labelled on each monster, martial characters can actually do shit now, it pretty clearly addressed design goals beyond 'feel like DnD', especially in regards to ease of introducing new players and ensuring combat moves swiftly.
Have you read the 3E rules? What do you like or dislike?
The Crafting system is a series of bizarre decisions, the way they worked in martial arts is dumb, the obsession with dice manipulation/success adders/cascading reroll charms sucks, I'm not fond of the thematic elements, the handling of the Kickstarter and surrounding PR has been crap, the skill-curve on charms encourages min-maxing again (There are a couple exceptions, like War. Eukie did a breakdown earlier), Invocations likely need a rework unless I've missed something on the implementation (And are already receiving homebrew to compensate), and the entire Hundred Faced Stranger line is a terrible idea. Charm Bloat sucks, as always.
I heard that naval combat's an 'interminable grind', but I haven't actually tried it/done any real maths on it, so I'm leaving that neutral.
On the plus side, Combat might function for once (Haven't seen any destructive testing on it, but 'use Dissidia' is not a bad base), base system doesn't look too bad. Some of the fluff isn't inherently terrible? Haven't looked at sorcery yet, not sure what that's like.
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