Eh, I've been approaching the subject from the perspective of "can my Solarfied Sherlock Holmes solve this" instead of "can this one specific charm solve this" from the beginning so splitting things up between decode this charms and pull info from thin air charms doesn't matter as much since I expect my Solarfied Sherlock would have both.
 
Eh, I've been approaching the subject from the perspective of "can my Solarfied Sherlock Holmes solve this" instead of "can this one specific charm solve this" from the beginning so splitting things up between decode this charms and pull info from thin air charms doesn't matter as much since I expect my Solarfied Sherlock would have both.

Put another way, there's a difference between Solar Detective Bob, with a Charm of Knowing Stuff / Making Correct Conclusions from Nothing, and Solar Cryptographer Bob, with a Charm of Perfect Decryption. If Solar Cryptographer Bob is trying to use a Charm of Perfect Decryption on a one time pad message and he doesn't have the key, he is doing the equivalent of trying to use a Charm of Perfect Lockpicking on a stone wall with no openings in it.

It's the wrong tool for the job, so it doesn't matter if you do it perfectly and cannot fail. That Charm of Perfect Lockpicking could pick any lock that was there to be picked, but there's no lock and no door, it's a wall. You need a Charm of Busting Down Walls or a Charm of Bypassing Physical Obstacles.

Here's another example - Solar Larceny has a charm lets you pass any portal without having to open it, but there needs to be a portal, you can't walk through a stone wall. A "normally" coded message here is a wall with a locked door in it with a difficulty to unlock of over 9000, which the charm will happily bypass. A one time pad message is a cliff face, and your charm does nothing.
 
Last edited:
Note: I am assuming the OTP is executed correctly and the key is longer than the message. A "decode this" charm would work if this was not the case.

My favoured interpretation is that the act of encoding a message with a OTP creates an inherent metaphysical connection between the ciphertext and the plaintext in, I don't know, the Loom of Fate or something, and Solar Cryptography can "break" OTPs by just tracing the metaphysical connection and reading the plaintext.
 
Put another way, there's a difference between Solar Detective Bob, with a Charm of Knowing Stuff, and Solar Cryptographer Bob, with a Charm of Perfect Decryption. If Solar Cryptographer Bob is trying to use a Charm of Perfect Decryption on a one time pad message and he doesn't have the key, he is doing the equivalent of trying to use a Charm of Perfect Lockpicking on a stone wall with no openings in it.

It's the wrong tool for the job, so it doesn't matter if you do it perfectly and cannot fail. That Charm of Perfect Lockpicking could pick any lock that was there to be picked, but there's no lock and no door, it's a wall. You need a Charm of Busting Down Walls or a Charm of Bypassing Physical Obstacles.

Here's another example - Solar Larceny has a charm lets you pass any portal without having to open it, but there needs to be a portal, you can't walk through a stone wall. A "normally" coded message here is a wall with a locked door in it with a difficulty to unlock of over 9000, which the charm will happily bypass. A one time pad message is a cliff face, and your charm does nothing.

If a player character can't perform their high concept then someone has fucked up.
 
If a player character can't perform their high concept then someone has fucked up.

What you want here is "I pull the document this message is telling me to look stuff up in out of the ether" (see Eukie's version of this below) or "I understand what this message was trying to communicate to its intended recipient regardless of any other factors", not "I decode this coded message". These things are likely to be differently placed and differently costed in your charm trees.

My favoured interpretation is that the act of encoding a message with a OTP creates an inherent metaphysical connection between the ciphertext and the plaintext in, I don't know, the Loom of Fate or something, and Solar Cryptography can "break" OTPs by just tracing the metaphysical connection and reading the plaintext.

Or if this is true, then "I decode this coded message" will work, because we're explicitly changing things to make it work.
 
Last edited:
What you want here is "I pull the document this message is telling me to look stuff up in out of the ether" or "I understand what this message was trying to communicate to its intended recipient regardless of any other factors", not "I decode this coded message". These things are likely to be differently placed and differently costed in your charm trees.



Or if this is true, then "I decode this coded message" will work, because we're explicitly changing things to make it work.

Though whatever initially conversation that meme-ified the topic might have been about a specific charm, when broached here it seemed to ask about Solars in general, not said charm. While what you said is true, it also doesn't affect whether or not Solars could do the thing.
 
You cannot break a message encrypted with a one time pad with a "decode this" charm - there is nothing to decode, it's an instruction to look something up in some other document, and you don't have the other document. Even if you have a perfect decoding charm, this does nothing to solve your problem - you understand the message just fine, but the thing's you're supposed to look stuff up in is not there, what are you gonna do?

A charm which explicitly let you pull information you don't have out of nowhere would work as we know that this is possible by the fact that Perfect Mirror exists (your perfect disguise can act correctly in ways you did not observe even if there is no way to extrapolate), but the charm in question would have to explicitly mention that before I would allow it to work.

Yeah.

I would say this is one case where sorcery is more applicable than Solar charms. An spell that gives you access tp the pad via their sympathic connection with the cyphertext makes sense. Decoding the text, even with perfect decrypting skill, really doesn't, because there is nothing to decode.
 
What changed your mind?
Hmmm, well mostly an increased study of antiquity. Originally, my knowledge of antiquity was sort of surface-level beyond some bits, but when I began heavily associating with HISTORY DELINQUENTS like @100thlurker, I slowly changed perspective, because I began appreciating the smaller things, I guess? Originally I was super hardcore on Exalted's pseudo-sci-fi elements too, with the Realm having many First Age artifacts and Shogunate stuff, both presented in a very technological way. I had Exalted as being the kind of almost transhuman superhumans that could trivially solve most human problems, that you see in this thread a lot, as well. Eventually I just grew tired of it, I guess? I started preferring a narrative of more classical culture heroes and began favouring the Age of Sorrows to the Shogunate and First Age. Exalted's whole cynical narrative of deconstruction started feeling trite and hamfisted to me, in large part due to influence from @Omicron and @Gargulec, whom I have both discussed such matters with extensively. I actually noted it quite recently when I was having a discussion with @TenfoldShields and @EarthScorpion about the former's Out of the Eater story, that his portrayal of the Lookshy I had written was interesting because how simultaneously similar and different it was; the same culture, the same history, the same names etc. But it also had strongly technological elements, felt more post-apocalyptic and a lot more like a fucked-up military remnant-state.

With the matter about art, I guess I just eventually decided some day that I preferred this:

Rather than this:


I can't really point to any specific incident which made me prefer it, it was just a slow slide over the years that happened step by step. Perhaps I was simply tired of the old and needed something new? Perhaps it was dastardly @Omicron and @100thlurker influencing me with exotic ideas and I was not saved in time! Perhaps it was simply to spite someone I disagree with in this thread who preferred a version of Exalted slightly different from me! I guess we shall never know.

Quickly we need a distraction !

Triemes suck, iron men and wooden ships ftw!

Triremes are fantastic :cool: and I would rather make the entire Inner Sea smaller just to accomodate Triremes to spite this entire thread. Owned, nerds. :cool:
 
Last edited:
The One-Time Pad Debate is both dumb and unsolvable, because people aren't actually arguing about one-time pads, they are arguing over whether it's better to be a Huge Nerd or a Cool Jock.

Huge Nerds value accurate portrayals of science and techniques, and they like getting deep in the guts of how things work. More than this, they love "gotchas"; neat corner-case interactions that go against the grain of typical clichés and are obtained through clever understanding of mechanisms. Huge Nerds are the kind of people who have a mortal manage to escape a pack of werewolves because actually, fur hinders perspiration and diminishes the werewolves' physical endurance. And they are, indeed, the kind of people who understand, and more than that appreciate, the process by which a one-time pad is meaningfully different from other encryption, and to them it feels rewarding that this difference have consequences in the game. It showcases an understanding of science, it creates neat "gotcha" cases, and it celebrates human ingenuity: here is an example, drawn from the real world, of something a mortal could make that defeats the flawless magic of the Exalted.

Cool Jocks don't give a shit. They are here to tell a story alongside rules that define badass magic that does things. Encryption is encryption. You talk to them about how an OTP works and they yawn and stop paying attention, or they just stare blankly waiting for you to get to the point. An OTP works in such and such way, and so... what? It's encryption. Narratively, what encryption does is tag things with a "this is encrypted" label, that tells you that you need to decipher it, and the exact nature of the encryption is like, who cares? It's not that encryption is lame (it absolutely is, but that's unrelated), it's that the purpose of various encryption techniques is to provide stunt fodder and, at most, set the Difficulty rating of the decryption roll. Generously, an OTP might have a decryption difficulty of "impossible without magic" because it's impossible to decipher in the real world, but, well, magic is magic, and encryption is encryption. Once you bring in the decryption Charm, the OTP gets decrypted, because Cool Jocks don't give a shit about the finer details of how OTPs work. They care that the narrative purpose of encryption is to hide things, and the narrative purpose of decryption Charms is to find things out, and that's it. The idea that one kind of encryption works in a weird specific way that could theoretically make decryption inapplicable is... Boring, and weird. It's encryption, decryption Charms beat it, why are we talking about this? Why are you nerding out on me? I refuse to sit there and listen to ten minutes of lecturing about how some mundane thing that exists could defeat magic because of scientific details I don't give a shit about. I am running a game, you huge nerd.

And this is why this discussion will never be settled no matter how many times we have it, because it's not about the mechanics of one-time pads and specific Charms, it's about people's core assumption about how the game should work.
 
The One-Time Pad Debate is both dumb and unsolvable, because people aren't actually arguing about one-time pads, they are arguing over whether it's better to be a Huge Nerd or a Cool Jock.

Huge Nerds value accurate portrayals of science and techniques, and they like getting deep in the guts of how things work. More than this, they love "gotchas"; neat corner-case interactions that go against the grain of typical clichés and are obtained through clever understanding of mechanisms. Huge Nerds are the kind of people who have a mortal manage to escape a pack of werewolves because actually, fur hinders perspiration and diminishes the werewolves' physical endurance. And they are, indeed, the kind of people who understand, and more than that appreciate, the process by which a one-time pad is meaningfully different from other encryption, and to them it feels rewarding that this difference have consequences in the game. It showcases an understanding of science, it creates neat "gotcha" cases, and it celebrates human ingenuity: here is an example, drawn from the real world, of something a mortal could make that defeats the flawless magic of the Exalted.

Cool Jocks don't give a shit. They are here to tell a story alongside rules that define badass magic that does things. Encryption is encryption. You talk to them about how an OTP works and they yawn and stop paying attention, or they just stare blankly waiting for you to get to the point. An OTP works in such and such way, and so... what? It's encryption. Narratively, what encryption does is tag things with a "this is encrypted" label, that tells you that you need to decipher it, and the exact nature of the encryption is like, who cares? It's not that encryption is lame (it absolutely is, but that's unrelated), it's that the purpose of various encryption techniques is to provide stunt fodder and, at most, set the Difficulty rating of the decryption roll. Generously, an OTP might have a decryption difficulty of "impossible without magic" because it's impossible to decipher in the real world, but, well, magic is magic, and encryption is encryption. Once you bring in the decryption Charm, the OTP gets decrypted, because Cool Jocks don't give a shit about the finer details of how OTPs work. They care that the narrative purpose of encryption is to hide things, and the narrative purpose of decryption Charms is to find things out, and that's it. The idea that one kind of encryption works in a weird specific way that could theoretically make decryption inapplicable is... Boring, and weird. It's encryption, decryption Charms beat it, why are we talking about this? Why are you nerding out on me? I refuse to sit there and listen to ten minutes of lecturing about how some mundane thing that exists could defeat magic because of scientific details I don't give a shit about. I am running a game, you huge nerd.

And this is why this discussion will never be settled no matter how many times we have it, because it's not about the mechanics of one-time pads and specific Charms, it's about people's core assumption about how the game should work.
So what im hearing is we need to go swirly some nerds and then play football?
 
You are ignoring content by this member.
In the game I'm playing, I'm wondering what to do with the three giant jade spheres filled with enough vitriol (suspended within the spheres so as not to let them actually touch the jade because even that would be melted away in time) to ruin the Threshold's largest jade mine that the mines' previous owner had as a way to destroy everything if he were to lose control. Luckily the other players managed to work around that (accidentally :V) when I sent my forces in, but now there's just three orbs filled with horrifically powerful acid and I haven't the slightest clue what to do with them. If I had an airship, I could just drop the damn things on Cold House (since its masters have been doing rather irritating things such as summoning Dukantha AND his boat to fuck with me) and really fuck over everybody in there, but since I don't, I'm wondering what the heck do I do with these things because I don't want them in the mines.
 
While I do feel that MJ12 Commando's concerns are legitimate, I also feel that they are edge cases that most GMs would handwave aside on the grounds of "I'm not dealing with that bullshit."

It's one of the scenarios that prompted EX3 to have an explicit rule urging Storytellers to go "yeah please stop trying to fuck my campaign in the ear, moving on"
 
Something that I'm not understanding is why it needs to be Solars who are capable of doing this. Pulling the information needed to decrypt this dodad seems like a perfectly reasonable thing for a Sidereal to be able to do.
 
It's one of the scenarios that prompted EX3 to have an explicit rule urging Storytellers to go "yeah please stop trying to fuck my campaign in the ear, moving on"
I mean, I've actually never had it happen that way, but I have had a game grind to a halt cause a ST declared a charm inapplicable and the player went "no my charm should win"
 
Really, the one time pad issue is an edge case (Solar encryption charms) within an edge case (Solar spy games) interacting with another edge case (one time pads)

There's so much fucking edge here I'm surprised no one has cut themselves yet.
 
Last edited:
Something that I'm not understanding is why it needs to be Solars who are capable of doing this. Pulling the information needed to decrypt this dodad seems like a perfectly reasonable thing for a Sidereal to be able to do.

Because Solars must be the best at every niche and the thought of another splat having an ability they can't get makes certin people break out in hives. Except Shapshifting. Lunars can have that, but only because Infernals practically got it better (in 2e)
 
Actually, that reminds me of something I've been wondering about. How advanced do y'all make the setting when it comes to abstract math, visual art, and other non-technological fields?

I tend to assume that Creation is in many ways far more advanced than the ancient world it resembles. Heaven and Hell, even more so. I'd expect a Dragonblooded mathematician to have little trouble with most of the stuff we work on today, and I don't think a painting made with linear perspective would blow anyone's mind.

The Realm's economic structure pretty much requires calculus equations. One of the major sources of power in the setting is extremely elaborate architecture, placed after extensive land surveys, so as far as math goes, it's a safe bet to assume they have calculus, trig, and our good old friend the number zero.

Abstract art is going to be highly developed because the primary audience for it (the ruling class of the Realm) is both immensely sophisticated and very long-lived. Depictive art is much less common and less favored in the Realm, but a) the Realm doesn't have a cultural stranglehold on all of Creation, b) rulers love seeing themselves depicted in paint and stone, and c) there's still a fair amount of art that survived the end of the First Age, and it did not have the Realm's cultural biases. So the visual arts are going to be all over the place in terms of levels of development.

General medicine is pretty effective thanks to the ubiquity of efficacious prayers, slightly magical tubers, and surviving knowledge of things like basic sanitation practices and anatomical texts. Major physical trauma can be a big problem, though, because beyond having basic anesthesia, their surgery ain't great.
 
Back
Top