General Exalted Thread
Lealope
Not yet invincible
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Quick check: I'm thinking about running a PbP one on one game of Exalted, akin to Sunset Sands or Kerisgame. There are a few caveats, however:
1) The game itself will be relatively short, closer to a oneshot adventure than a full campaign. You'll play a character with clearly defined short term goal and start in a position where accomplishing that goal is within reach.
2) The game will be closer to a quest than a normal roleplaying experience. You don't need to write prose if you don't want to, just tell me what you'd like to do. I'll retain veto rights on a given course of action, but will only use it if I feel your decision would be out of character.
3) I would require feedback on the story. This doesn't have to be highly detailed or involved, just give me your honest reaction and highlight things you liked or disliked. Feel free to be as caustic as you want.
The various aspects of the session would be up to negotiation, from the splat choice to the mechanics to the setting. I'm open to running more or less anything, so long as the sourcebooks are legally available at a reasonable price and we remain within the boundaries of good taste.
Would anybody be interested in an RP with these conditions? Keep in mind, this is only a check. I'm not sure as to whether or not I will actually do this.
1) The game itself will be relatively short, closer to a oneshot adventure than a full campaign. You'll play a character with clearly defined short term goal and start in a position where accomplishing that goal is within reach.
2) The game will be closer to a quest than a normal roleplaying experience. You don't need to write prose if you don't want to, just tell me what you'd like to do. I'll retain veto rights on a given course of action, but will only use it if I feel your decision would be out of character.
3) I would require feedback on the story. This doesn't have to be highly detailed or involved, just give me your honest reaction and highlight things you liked or disliked. Feel free to be as caustic as you want.
The various aspects of the session would be up to negotiation, from the splat choice to the mechanics to the setting. I'm open to running more or less anything, so long as the sourcebooks are legally available at a reasonable price and we remain within the boundaries of good taste.
Would anybody be interested in an RP with these conditions? Keep in mind, this is only a check. I'm not sure as to whether or not I will actually do this.
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This is correct.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
The Charmset in question handles it as a combination of Final Destination and Anti-Life.
One of the primary Charms for it basically shoves another person's face into samsara, forcing them to see a future where something they hold dear will be destroyed by their own hands - for example, forcing an enemy Solar to see a future where he sells out his Circlemates to the Immaculates. In the example, it's explicitly stated that samsara hardcodes that outcome into reality so hard that nothing can stop it. If every Primordial was suddenly restored to full power and came over to stop that Solar from selling out his friends? They would fail, no matter what they did, because samsara has dictated that this Solar will sell out his friends to the Wyld Hunt, so that's what will happen. If the Solar tries to kill himself to escape the prophecy, he fails. If his friends try to social-fu him out of betraying them, they fail. Hell, it doesn't even matter whether the Solar has any intention of betraying his Circlemates - the prophecy will manufacture a reason if necessary, or even just have him spontaneously go insane and do it.
Samsara is inviolate. No force can defy it. The absolute best that anyone can do is try to pick up the pieces after the betrayal takes place.
By the point where you See the Shape of Things to Come, you're an irretrievably insane monster whose Motivation is to enslave all that Is and Is Not under the omnipotent yoke of samsara. The mortal fisherman is fucked too, because you'll walk up, samsara his ass so he's destined to rape his own sister or something else horrible (because the Charm in question explicitly uses samsara to make people destroy their own Intimacies, so it's always something fucked up), and by the time that the prophecy completes itself his original Motivation will be replaced with yours and his old Intimacies will wither into dust, leaving only the insane conviction that samsara must be spread across Creation and the realms beyond.
The endgame of the Sachaverell Charmset in question involves you freezing time solid so you can make a literally infinite number of social attacks on literally everything and everyone that exists until they embrace enslavement to samsara, at which point you restart time and joyously move forward into the clockwork nightmare you've created.
Unfortunately, the Charmset has almost no functionality beyond helping you reach that point - maybe 3 Charms out of at least two dozen aren't going to instantly throw you headlong towards the Samsarapocalypse.
Yeah, that's awful - both for playability and also because by all indications, Sacharavell is as much a slave to his visions as everyone else.
The apocalypse he brings is existential, not a "oh this is dooooooooooooooom".
The apocalypse he brings is existential, not a "oh this is dooooooooooooooom".
Though as a story idea; I do think its pretty interesting insight into the what the maidens, in terms how it restricts what they can and cannot do, and the reluctance to use their insight.
- Location
- United States
This is what GotMH: Maidens has to say about Samsara. Samsara can't do SHIT to PCs. The only ones who get fucked by it are NPCs who already don't control themselves because they'tr controlled by the omnipresent hand of the ST. Samsara is NPCs breaking the fourth wall to recognize that they're NPCs.
And the "I see all" charm would have to follow the "When I see the future, I am compelled to not stop it in any way" charm. Taking the "I see all" charm would then turn your character into an NPC. And even then, it wouldn't do shit to the other PCs.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
To quote the source:
Sacheverell is a monstrosity who inspires fear and disgust in all who learn of him. Those fools who dare approach him are faced with terrible prophecies of impending doom. All the universe is united in valuing his sleep, for his awakening would entail the single worst thing imaginable. It is a blessing, then, that he prefers the status quo of his eternal slumber, and pursues this end with grim determination and the forbidden knowledge he has gained by studying the contours of the future.
That is what the world thinks of Sacheverell, and this is good, for the truth is far more pathetic. Sacheverell is a helpless victim cast adrift in a cruel world which exists only to torment him and laugh at his failures. The Abhorrent Prophet Unimagined sees the universe for the miserable place it is, and wisely discards the false hopes it offers to others. The only salvation is to give up,and so Sacheverell surrenders his will to the inevitable, abdicating the responsibilities of choice to become a blameless puppet of destiny. He has forsaken reality, isolating himself behind walls of apathy and withdrawing into dreams in which he is still the Lidless Eye That Sees, and knows not from whence the strange Yozi named "Sacheverell" came.
At times, He Who Sees the Shape of Things to Come thinks he spies something which could offer hope, and for a moment he feels as though his life is worthwhile, after all. However, reality is always quick to punish such self-defeating idiocy, and thus it has become his habit to lash out at those who would drag him back into the hateful waking world.
That is what the world thinks of Sacheverell, and this is good, for the truth is far more pathetic. Sacheverell is a helpless victim cast adrift in a cruel world which exists only to torment him and laugh at his failures. The Abhorrent Prophet Unimagined sees the universe for the miserable place it is, and wisely discards the false hopes it offers to others. The only salvation is to give up,and so Sacheverell surrenders his will to the inevitable, abdicating the responsibilities of choice to become a blameless puppet of destiny. He has forsaken reality, isolating himself behind walls of apathy and withdrawing into dreams in which he is still the Lidless Eye That Sees, and knows not from whence the strange Yozi named "Sacheverell" came.
At times, He Who Sees the Shape of Things to Come thinks he spies something which could offer hope, and for a moment he feels as though his life is worthwhile, after all. However, reality is always quick to punish such self-defeating idiocy, and thus it has become his habit to lash out at those who would drag him back into the hateful waking world.
Benezer the White Ram died, and it was the Lidless Eye that Sees' fault. He was too weak to stop it, too stupid to see it coming, too hideous for the Chosen of the gods to consider sparing him, too worthless to do anything at all. His transition into Sacheverell has made him no better, but now he can at least predict his own failures to prepare himself for them. This Charm gives the Infernal an extra peripheral Essence pool that is 10 motes large.
Additionally, whenever the Infernal uses Inevitable Doom Foresight on himself, he may specify exactly what he wishes to see. If he does so, he is granted a vision of himself failing spectacularly at whatever action he foresaw. This ensures that he will botch the roll for that action the next time the specified situation occurs. If the Storyteller judges the situation to have been appropriate for an Eclipse-caste oath enforced botch to have occurred (i.e., not so specific that it will never actually come up in play, something that the warlock actually had a chance at succeeding at anyway, not something the Infernal would actually want to fail at, etc), then he gains 10 motes for the Essence pool provided by this Charm. This is the only way the pool may be refilled, and it may be done at most once per scene.
Note that the Samsara keyword only applies to the failure itself. If the Infernal has a vision of losing a horse race against Regent Fokuf, he is not required to actually challenge the Regent to a race. If he finds himself in such a race, however, he cannot do anything to prevent himself from losing. If a character would normally be unable to take this Charm, such as due to the Native keyword or the limit on the number of Green Sun Prince mote pool expanders, they may learn it anyway, but do not gain the mote pool until they could normally learn this Charm.
Additionally, whenever the Infernal uses Inevitable Doom Foresight on himself, he may specify exactly what he wishes to see. If he does so, he is granted a vision of himself failing spectacularly at whatever action he foresaw. This ensures that he will botch the roll for that action the next time the specified situation occurs. If the Storyteller judges the situation to have been appropriate for an Eclipse-caste oath enforced botch to have occurred (i.e., not so specific that it will never actually come up in play, something that the warlock actually had a chance at succeeding at anyway, not something the Infernal would actually want to fail at, etc), then he gains 10 motes for the Essence pool provided by this Charm. This is the only way the pool may be refilled, and it may be done at most once per scene.
Note that the Samsara keyword only applies to the failure itself. If the Infernal has a vision of losing a horse race against Regent Fokuf, he is not required to actually challenge the Regent to a race. If he finds himself in such a race, however, he cannot do anything to prevent himself from losing. If a character would normally be unable to take this Charm, such as due to the Native keyword or the limit on the number of Green Sun Prince mote pool expanders, they may learn it anyway, but do not gain the mote pool until they could normally learn this Charm.
It's pretty much Self-Hatred and Suicidal Depression: the Yozi.
- Location
- Ottawa
The threat isn't the stuff that happens; it's the psychological effect of knowing the future, and being unable to use that knowledge the way you want to.
Accidentally cutting yourself while cooking is no biggie. Being forced to intentionally cut yourself while cooking is rather worse. A puppet who cannot see or feel the strings dragging them to their doom will be much happier than one who's fully aware of them.
That's never stated in the books; really, there's no detail on how Samsara works beyond what's necessary to run the Maidens.
If you ask me, the best way to handle it is to say that it binds anyone who looks into it and it's impossible to force anyone to look into it. It's flawless at predicting the actions of everyone, regardless of power or status, except for the very occasional inexplicable anomaly (the PCs, generally).
- Location
- Ottawa
That's not quite so. It can predict their actions, more reliably than is really feasible to play out at the table. Hence the advice about making the Maidens extra mysterious.
- Location
- United States
Samsara just doesn't seem like it's at all threatening to me whatsoever ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I've always read it following what the devs have said it's effects are (Neph, Stephenls, and Holden) and it's just generic spooky that doesn't matter if you aren't Sacheverell or the maidens.
Being able to see samsara doesn't let you choose the future in some kind of divination, you can't use a Sacheverell that lets you see the shape of things to come. letting you the player determine what happens, if you use that sort of charm, the ST says what happens and you don't even roll dice, because it just happens.
I've always read it following what the devs have said it's effects are (Neph, Stephenls, and Holden) and it's just generic spooky that doesn't matter if you aren't Sacheverell or the maidens.
Being able to see samsara doesn't let you choose the future in some kind of divination, you can't use a Sacheverell that lets you see the shape of things to come. letting you the player determine what happens, if you use that sort of charm, the ST says what happens and you don't even roll dice, because it just happens.
Salty
Shadow Cabal Assumptor Supreme
- Location
- Sun, Moon, Talia
- Pronouns
- I/Me
Honestly, I don't even know what we're debating?
Samsara is pretty fucking clearly the same as being precognitive in Dune. To see the future is to know the future is to lock the future into shape. This literally shapes the plot of Dune and all its sequels, and a significant running plotline is the prophets themselves seeking a way to destroy this horrible existential curse by creating humans who are axiomatically unpredictable.
Creation is not so kind.
Samsara is pretty fucking clearly the same as being precognitive in Dune. To see the future is to know the future is to lock the future into shape. This literally shapes the plot of Dune and all its sequels, and a significant running plotline is the prophets themselves seeking a way to destroy this horrible existential curse by creating humans who are axiomatically unpredictable.
Creation is not so kind.
Peanut-007
Hat or Hair? America decides.
- Location
- Maryland, United States of America
Samsara shouldn't take away player choice unless it's done through something vague and already Storyteller controlled like "You will soon be face to face with your rival."
- Location
- United States
I'm arguing that because Samsara doesn't have a Total Control effect that comes with seeing it, there's no actual inherent terror in someone seeing it. The only person who's actually fucked over is the person who's taken the charms necessary to see samsara because it steals agency from THEM, not everyone else. If YOU open samsara up and look into the life of a fisherman and you see that he's going to be a fisherman for the next five years before the village finds out he assaults his child every night and strings him up, he isn't compelled to assault his child every night and stay in the village as a fisherman and stand by silently while the villagers string him up through magic.
And there's easier ways to fuck over your own personal character than spending 8-10xp on a "im fuuuuuucked" charm.
And there's easier ways to fuck over your own personal character than spending 8-10xp on a "im fuuuuuucked" charm.
IMO, Samsara is something that A) is irrelevant in 99.9% of all cases, B) should be kept out of PC hands at all costs, and C) should be out of sight as much as possible.
If I were running it, the only people who can actually see it and act are the Maidens. And they hate using it, despite its benefits (which are a guarantee that what they do will strengthen existence, and powers they can't freely use on their own). When they use it, they get the "script" of what will happen, the story of them and the interactions they have with the world, and they follow it absolutely. If Mercury uses it, she'll see the journey she takes, the people she sets into motion on her way, and what happens when she arrives at her destination - and then she's a passenger in her own head as it plays out. She can't tell someone "Samsara says this will happen" and hope they avert it, because she gave up her freedom to do and say as she wants when she began walking with Samsara.
The reason it should be kept offscreen is because the ST doesn't have Samsara, and so they can't predict how PCs will react - all they can know is that whatever the PCs do will, retroactively, have been included in Samsara's vision.
If I were running it, the only people who can actually see it and act are the Maidens. And they hate using it, despite its benefits (which are a guarantee that what they do will strengthen existence, and powers they can't freely use on their own). When they use it, they get the "script" of what will happen, the story of them and the interactions they have with the world, and they follow it absolutely. If Mercury uses it, she'll see the journey she takes, the people she sets into motion on her way, and what happens when she arrives at her destination - and then she's a passenger in her own head as it plays out. She can't tell someone "Samsara says this will happen" and hope they avert it, because she gave up her freedom to do and say as she wants when she began walking with Samsara.
The reason it should be kept offscreen is because the ST doesn't have Samsara, and so they can't predict how PCs will react - all they can know is that whatever the PCs do will, retroactively, have been included in Samsara's vision.
- Location
- Ottawa
It does, though. The very quotes you linked say so. As Holden said...
Holden said:
He's not compelled, but he's definitely gonna do it.
And you will be compelled to let it happen. You will be held prisoner by your own power, forced to tacitly support a child molester. If that's not "inherent terror", what is?
The fact that you have to do it to yourself doesn't make it any less horrible.
- Location
- Pittsburgh, PA
He actually is. If you walked up and used Glorious Solar Social Skills to make him abandon his child-abusing ways and turn over a new leaf, he'd still somehow end up getting lynched for beating his kid five years from now. If you gave him Solar-tier training to help him become a merchant, his business fails somehow, he goes back to being a fisherman, and then gets lynched for beating his kid on the appointed date.
If you try to kill him, then something will suddenly come up that's too big for you to ignore, so you have to drop the matter and go deal with it. By the time you get back around to killing the fisherman, he's already been lynched for beating his child. If you try to kill his child, you might succeed, but then the village finds out about the preexisting abuse years later and lynches the fisherman anyway. If you say "fuck it" and try to drop the entire Direction this is happening in into the Wyld, then somehow your plan gets leaked to the Sidereals, or a crazed elder Lunar, or some other force that's capable of stopping you, because samsara has decreed that that town is going to end up lynching that fisherman and your actions would prevent this from happening.
The important thing, though? Until some idiot looked into samsara to see this fisherman's future, none of this was guaranteed to happen. You could absolutely have prevented his death, or prevented him from staying a fisherman, or even just wiped out the entire town for the hell of it. As soon as samsara got involved, however, the future was set in stone and now not even Theion himself could stop it.
Hence why samsara is generally treated as a Bad Idea that everyone avoids using, because even a tiny chance of success is preferable to using samsara and potentially locking yourself into a future where everything goes to shit.
Part of the problem is that there are several different concepts being discussed and all given the same name.
Of the various Samsaras:
1. A base level "laws of physics" determinism
2. What the Maidens do that imposes a control effect to play along
3. The thing made up for the charmset that commands the ST to surrender their own agency and ignore the agency of all the other players
4. Similar to 1, the theoretical descriptor for one approach to the ontological nature of time
These things are not identical nor do they imply each other. Some or all of them can coexist but need not necessarily do so.
Of the various Samsaras:
1. A base level "laws of physics" determinism
2. What the Maidens do that imposes a control effect to play along
3. The thing made up for the charmset that commands the ST to surrender their own agency and ignore the agency of all the other players
4. Similar to 1, the theoretical descriptor for one approach to the ontological nature of time
These things are not identical nor do they imply each other. Some or all of them can coexist but need not necessarily do so.
... Honestly, it seems to me that in order for samsara to mean anything, it should anticipate and take into account your reactions.
It's not that it overrides you - it's that every step makes perfect sense. Like playing a game of poker with your cards face up, or playing a chessmaster that explains her entire strategy before she moves and still beats you anyway. You don't "see that the fisherman will beat his child for the next five years, try to change that, and fail"; you just see "the fisherman will beat his child for the next day, at which point you Glorious Solar Bullshit him into stopping, at which point he will stop."
And you won't even try to change that, because that is what you would do anyway.
-- It's not impossible for this to end horribly - especially for high-Virtue, strong-principled Exalts that refuse to change their minds even in the face of certain tragedy. And if you like, you can make that into a horror story.
But if samsara has any pretense at being 'an absolute perfect map of the future,' it shouldn't fail so lamely as 'predicting that you'd do X when you'd really do Y, and then have to cover up its mistake by Mysterious Mind Control'
It's not that it overrides you - it's that every step makes perfect sense. Like playing a game of poker with your cards face up, or playing a chessmaster that explains her entire strategy before she moves and still beats you anyway. You don't "see that the fisherman will beat his child for the next five years, try to change that, and fail"; you just see "the fisherman will beat his child for the next day, at which point you Glorious Solar Bullshit him into stopping, at which point he will stop."
And you won't even try to change that, because that is what you would do anyway.
-- It's not impossible for this to end horribly - especially for high-Virtue, strong-principled Exalts that refuse to change their minds even in the face of certain tragedy. And if you like, you can make that into a horror story.
But if samsara has any pretense at being 'an absolute perfect map of the future,' it shouldn't fail so lamely as 'predicting that you'd do X when you'd really do Y, and then have to cover up its mistake by Mysterious Mind Control'
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Mask. Artifact 2 from 2nd Edition
Refluff for your fanfic.
He's a Twilight Caste; making shit, and using magical tools, is in-theme for him/her/them.
Yeah, Samsara isn't quite like that. For one thing, Solars can't access it, but that's a minor point.
Samsara is the path you will walk, not a specific vision. You look into Samsara and are bound to it, in exchange for certainty and (if you're a Maiden) power. Only those who have exposed themselves to Samsara and are thus bound can know the true future, and this means they can't even tell anyone what they know.
You would never just see "this guy abuses his kid five years from now." You'd see yourself walking in and exposing him to the world, and directly or indirectly causing him to be lynched. You don't just get a fixed chunk of future, you get "now until the end of my vision." It's not that everything you try to prevent it will fail, it's that by walking Samsara-wise, you gave up the ability to try to prevent it. This is why the Maidens specifically avoid using it - by stepping into Samsara, they give up free will and personality. Mercury may have passing interests, dalliances, intimacies that grow and wane as she lives - Journeys, Who Walks in Samsara does exactly what will benefit existence, through the mechanism of journeys started and undertaken. And not wanting to be 100%-devoted job-bots was literally the gods' motivation for rebelling.
This is why it MUST be kept out of PC hands - PCs can act and change in ways the world (that is, the ST) doesn't anticipate. Thus, by entering Samsara, you're becoming something unplayable until you leave it.
- Location
- United States
yes, this 100%
IRRC; isn't it stated that a lot sidereal charms draw on Samsara?
- Location
- U.S.
They draw on Fate, not Samsara. I don't think most/all Sids even know Samsara is a thing.
Right, Samsara is pretty much Über-Fate.