General Exalted Thread

[Jon Chung]

That's great; but like I said, the Primordial War is in the grand scheme of things of the actual gamable setting, is something that's never been approached as something something to ever to be gamable and the game IMO shouldn't even touch that to being gamable state since it leads to the ridlousnes nonsense of fighting TED in ROSTE. Thus its actual relevance to the Creation in the time of tumult is pretty much nill outside a few throwaway lines in a prelude.

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You don't have to make the Primordial War gamable, but you do have to make it plausible within the constraints of the game rules, because there are known events in the setting's history that require certain things to be possible/impossible.

For example, history states that the Dragon-Blooded surprised and massacred a whole bunch of Solars at the Calibration Feast, so if the mechanics come together to say "one Solar can kill an arbitrary number of Dragon-Blooded" or "Solars cannot be surprised, all plots will be infallibly discovered", you've probably got bad mechanics: if these powers existed, the setting cannot exist, so those powers get kicked out.

Or, from the other end of the scale, you can't make, say, a Third Circle fetich demon like Ligier capable of soloing all 700 Celestial Exalted, because, again, the setting has the Exalted fighting the Primordials and winning as historical fact. If it's mechanically impossible for them to win that contest based on some power you give to fetich demons (eg: "fetich demons have unlimited motes"), then, that power is bad mechanics, kick it out.

The "P-War OK / Usurpation OK" thing is primarily about trying to make sure that any powers written don't retroactively make the setting history impossible, because that would be dumb.

e: We can also say that, for example, Eclipses were obviously valuable in the P-War because historically they were, so whatever the P-War looked like, it obviously had stuff where a travel/bureaucracy/large-scale propaganda expert would be useful. Logistics and morale matter.

 

[Talkkno]

You don't have to make the Primordial War gamable, but you do have to make it plausible within the constraints of the game rules, because there are known events in the setting's history that require certain things to be possible/impossible.

For example, history states that the Dragon-Blooded surprised and massacred a whole bunch of Solars at the Calibration Feast, so if the mechanics come together to say "one Solar can kill an arbitrary number of Dragon-Blooded" or "Solars cannot be surprised, all plots will be infallibly discovered", you've probably got bad mechanics: if these powers existed, the setting cannot exist, so those powers get kicked out.

Or, from the other end of the scale, you can't make, say, a Third Circle fetich demon like Ligier capable of soloing all 700 Celestial Exalted, because, again, the setting has the Exalted fighting the Primordials and winning as historical fact. If it's mechanically impossible for them to win that contest based on some power you give to fetich demons (eg: "fetich demons have unlimited motes"), then, that power is bad mechanics, kick it out.

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Okay that makes more sense; wouldn't third circles tho as currently as statted be too powerful, since there are like a hundred of them and a guy like Ligier can take on a circle of Solars.

 

[Bursting Eagerness Soul]

The problem with broadly applicable excellencies was there was often no framework for what X more successes than you needed meant and left to their own devices a lot of STs felt bad about having 13 successes achieve only the same thing as 5 because that's not generally how it goes in combat.

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IIRC, there was a really vague guideline somewhere in 2e core. @Shyft would know more.

Also, @Aleph do you have a link to the Autocthon charmset you're referencing?

 

[Jon Chung]

Okay that makes more sense; wouldn't third circles tho as currently as statted be too powerful, since there are like a hundred of them and a guy like Ligier can take on a circle of Solars.

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Ligier is not an average third circle demon, he's the heart-soul of the King of the Primordials. It's fine for him to be a badass, but he is very likely the absolute strongest demon in Hell. Don't generalize him to every single third circle demon, why would you do that?

 

[Talkkno]

Ligier is not an average third circle demon, he's the heart-soul of the King of the Primordials. It's fine for him to be a badass, but he is very likely the absolute strongest demon in Hell. Don't generalize him to every single third circle demon, why would you do that?

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Well in terms of the benchmark of capabilities it was just the first thing that came to mind that Ligier is a casual city buster and that benchmark seems pretty common as level of power for third circles.

 

[MJ12 Commando]

Well in terms of the benchmark of capabilities it was just the first thing that came to mind that Ligier is a casual city buster and that benchmark seems pretty common as level of power for third circles.

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That... really doesn't matter. Like, stop talking about "city buster" and the like as if they matter in Exalted against Exalt-level foes because it absolutely does not.

 

[Jon Chung]

Well in terms of the benchmark of capabilities it was just the first thing that came to mind that Ligier is a casual city buster and that benchmark seems pretty common as level of power for third circles.

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Note that the average Celestial Exalt response to being nuked is "lol, I perfect". Whether you're able to fight multiple Celestial Exalted and their Dragon-Blooded killsquads and not die is, historically speaking, not particularly sensitive to how big an explosion you can make.

 

[Imrix]

I dunno. I kind of like the statement made by all of the entry-level Charms being Tumour 1... and then there's a gap like that before you start needing to upgrade your Tumour to get the good stuff. Where Tumour 1 really is trivial; it's not something that will strain you or anything, it's just that it means you can't ever stop treating it. It's easy to treat, it won't burden you... but it's something you'll need to think about for the rest of your life.

I like that, as a statement. It's not about Tumour 1 being a stick; it shouldn't hinder the character in any way at that point. It's more the uncomfortable feeling left by thinking ahead and realising you're going to be living with this illness until the day you die; it's not something you can ever just ignore. You are, permanently, transformed into "a creature that must rely on resources from the outside world to maintain its degeneration", in a way that's more visceral and felt than simple needs you grew up with like food, sleep or water. That's what it means, to sample Autochthon's nature. To become like him, even if it only has a very small mechanical weight at first.

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Ehhh. Personally, I prefer a version where the sickness is treatable, but doing so turns the Charms off and makes them costly to reactivate. It gels more with the mechanical framework of Exalted by not introducing super-sicknesses that defeat all curative magic, while making the same kind of point about Autochthon; that curing his disease would make him not-Autochthon.

 

[Arkalest]

Well in terms of the benchmark of capabilities it was just the first thing that came to mind that Ligier is a casual city buster and that benchmark seems pretty common as level of power for third circles.

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Can he bust cities? Probably.

Does he want to, and does he have to? That's the beauty of being a Third Circle who's got probably literal armies of henchmen. He may be a formidable opponent in person, but he doesn't really need to show up to wreck anything. He's got plenty of people to wear you down, and he doesn't really need to move his pretty damn fine brass ass to kick yours- He just has to tell the right people, who will tell other people, who will probably hire an entire gang of blood apes to shank you in an alleyway.

In short, calling him a city buster is a bit misleading in terms of why he'd be such a threat against Exalted.

 

[Huntertalon]

while making the same kind of point about Autochthon; that curing his disease would make him not-Autochthon.

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But if curing his disease effectively kills him, why cure him at all? It becomes pointless, either way he dies.

I would say WE CAN REBUILD HIM, WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY. Don't just cure him, improve him.

 

[RedV]

But if curing his disease effectively kills him, why cure him at all? It becomes pointless, either way he dies.

I would say WE CAN REBUILD HIM, WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY. Don't just cure him, improve him.

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His disease and ability to die are giving him power, I think. Certainly it was likely how the Exalted got spirit killing charms, since that appears to be the only thing that could kill a Primordial pre Exaltation.

 

[Aleph]

Also, @Aleph do you have a link to the Autocthon charmset you're referencing?

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No, because it's not been written - I said it was one of the more interesting ideas I've seen thrown around; not an actual Charmset.

Ehhh. Personally, I prefer a version where the sickness is treatable, but doing so turns the Charms off and makes them costly to reactivate. It gels more with the mechanical framework of Exalted by not introducing super-sicknesses that defeat all curative magic, while making the same kind of point about Autochthon; that curing his disease would make him not-Autochthon.

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I think you mean "curable", since I said that it was easily treatable at Tumour 1 and still possible at Tumour 5 as long as you're willing to go play the XCOM alien faction on the Wyld every so often to hoover up the exotic shit you need to treat your degeneration.

However, I don't think Autochthon Charms should be able to be walked back like that. They're supposed to be a creepy, scary, permanent change into something crippled and maimed - just as the Intolerable Burning Truths permanently affect your mind in ways that make you unhealthy and weird like Kimbery. Yeah, you can let a Tumour 1 go untreated for a few weeks without dying, or suppress Mother Before Daughter for a scene. But you can't just turn it off or undo it. That's not how Primordial Charms work.

 

[Imrix]

However, I don't think Autochthon Charms should be able to be walked back like that. They're supposed to be a creepy, scary, permanent change into something crippled and maimed - just as the Intolerable Burning Truths permanently affect your mind in ways that make you unhealthy and weird like Kimbery. Yeah, you can let a Tumour 1 go untreated for a few weeks without dying, or suppress Mother Before Daughter for a scene. But you can't just turn it off or undo it. That's not how Primordial Charms work.

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It's not how Yozi charms work, and even then, most Yozi charmsets do allow you to dip into them while avoiding permanent changes, if you're careful.

Fundamentally, I agree that wielding the power of Autochthon should require, or at least make it very difficult to avoid, that you also take on his sickness. But for a character who isn't Autochthon, and thus isn't defined by that gangrenous power, it likewise seems reasonable that they be able to walk it back if they're willing to say, "no, the price is too high, I shall be rid of this disease e'en it renders this power dormant" because Primordial Exalted... are not Primordials.

(Apart from anything else, it allows for the cool angle of the master of forbidden and literally toxic power who has, at great cost, stepped away from that power and now always knows what they could do if they delved into it once more, but staunchly resists... until the Plot calls.)

I'm also somewhat skeptical of the precedent set by charms that inflict a super-special trans-Medicine sickness that can't be cured by Exalted heroism no matter what. It comes to close to opening the door to perfect/transperfect arms races, to me. Better, I think, to allow the sickness to be cured, while formulating the price of curing it such that it can easily be seen why Autochthon hasn't done so, and may not truly wish to even that even if it could be done.

 

[Peanuckle]

Giving that sort of "sickness" aspect is definitely fluffy, but good luck selling the charmset to any players. They'd have to be phenomenally useful or powerful to justify that much risk, I think, and Autobot is the weakest of the titans so they're probably not.

I'd rather make the accrual of Tumor to be a cost of activating certain charms, much like how some will give you Limit. And you can treat a certain amount of it over a length of time, but if you break a certain level then you start taking huge penalties.

 

[Dynamesmouse]

Keep in mind that Auto's Magnum Opus literally forced the concept of death onto the titans that literally created shape and linear time. He's not "weak" in the slightest, but "weak" in that he is the only Primordial who die without the Exalted murdering him. He isn't a great big tank with spews radioactive hellfire at a whim, unless he builds a tank that is stocked up with some radioactive hellfire rounds.

 

[Talkkno]

Keep in mind that Auto's Magnum Opus literally forced the concept of death onto the titans that literally created shape and linear time. He's not "weak" in the slightest, but "weak" in that he is the only Primordial who die without the Exalted murdering him. He isn't a great big tank with spews radioactive hellfire at a whim, unless he builds a tank that is stocked up with some radioactive hellfire rounds.

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I thought he's always been described as basically the runt of the litter.

 

[Eos_Astraeus]

Giving that sort of "sickness" aspect is definitely fluffy, but good luck selling the charmset to any players. They'd have to be phenomenally useful or powerful to justify that much risk, I think, and Autobot is the weakest of the titans so they're probably not.

I'd rather make the accrual of Tumor to be a cost of activating certain charms, much like how some will give you Limit. And you can treat a certain amount of it over a length of time, but if you break a certain level then you start taking huge penalties.

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I like this idea.

Like longer rituals, the tumour rating increases the number of successes required to treat the degeneration caused by autobots charmset, and the higher the level of degeneration, the more issues it causes you.

Things like artificially lowering your effective health level, or introducing internal penalties to actions similar to negative mutations.

That way when you buy the charm, it doesn't actually hurt you, but every time you use it for anything, you commit yourself to burning resourses to return yourself to normal. Moreover, really useful will charms can drag you down as mush as the more powerful ones you use once in a while, meaning that becoming more like autobot and indulging in it always harms you, but you have some degree of control over what that level of harm is.

This also means players can make the trade off themselves as to whether this bonus right now to there actions is worth the cost they'll have to pay later, and makes the charms more attractive as the have to make the assumption that they can deal with the consequences with there success.

Trying to write with a broken hand causes you pain, and increases the recovery time. Trying to punch with it causes far more pain, worsens the injury immensely, and significantly ups the time to recovery. But it may seem worth it at the time.

I'd also make curing the degeneration via anything but burning resources reduce the effectiveness of the autobot charms for a time period.

It should be possible to just be healthy again at no significant cost, but it shouldn't be the ideal path.

Keep in mind that Auto's Magnum Opus literally forced the concept of death onto the titans that literally created shape and linear time. He's not "weak" in the slightest, but "weak" in that he is the only Primordial who die without the Exalted murdering him. He isn't a great big tank with spews radioactive hellfire at a whim, unless he builds a tank that is stocked up with some radioactive hellfire rounds.

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Isn't he weak in the sense that he needs to build tools to achieve what the others can naturally, and isn't that fighty regardless?

He is the ironman to the rest of the primordials superman. Even with his tools, he can't face any other primordial bar TED. But he can give his tools out to others to make them strong enough to overwhelm them through numbers and attrition.

 

[Peanuckle]

Keep in mind that Auto's Magnum Opus literally forced the concept of death onto the titans that literally created shape and linear time. He's not "weak" in the slightest, but "weak" in that he is the only Primordial who die without the Exalted murdering him. He isn't a great big tank with spews radioactive hellfire at a whim, unless he builds a tank that is stocked up with some radioactive hellfire rounds.

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The other titans bullied him ceaselessly and he was unable to defend himself. They stole his creations to build their own, broke his stuff whenever they felt like it and ripped up his favorite creation to build humanity. At least, that's the old fluff.

 

[Shane_357]

Isn't he weak in the sense that he needs to build tools to achieve what the others can naturally, and isn't that fighty regardless?

He is the ironman to the rest of the primordials superman. Even with his tools, he can't face any other primordial bar TED. But he can give his tools out to others to make them strong enough to overwhelm them through numbers and attrition.

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I'd say he's more Lex Luthor than Ironman.

 

[Graypairofsocks]

Many, many people. To go into slightly more useful detail instead of just throwing what-ifs at the wall; one of the more innovative things for an Autochthon Charmset I've seen is the use of a "Tumour" keyword that gives you an incurable-even-by-magic sickness that needs to be treated, requiring reagents and resources every month to keep your health from degenerating. This keyword infests a large portion of his charmset, and it's especially notable that his First Excellency is definitely one of the Charms that's keyworded Tumour 1 - sickliness is literally part of his inherent nature; it can never be separated from him. His Sorcerous Initiation is infected too - at a much higher level, hence why learning true Sorcery means apostatehood for Alchemicals.

I'd be tempted to say that both of his root Charms are Tumour 1 as well - you can't dip into Autochthon "safely"; he's the crippled, maimed titan and taking anything of him into yourself means dealing with his condition. At Tumour 1 it's fairly trivial to treat, but you will need to treat it - forever, because you can't unlearn Charms. And the deeper into his trees you go, the higher your Tumour rating climbs, until you're like him; needing vast inflow of potential-energy from the Wyld to survive outside of a coma (or at all, in the long term).

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Don't be unimaginative. There are various ways to unlearn charms.

 

[Accelerator]

Don't be unimaginative. There are various ways to unlearn charms.

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Like?

 

[Graypairofsocks]

The other titans bullied him ceaselessly and he was unable to defend himself. They stole his creations to build their own, broke his stuff whenever they felt like it and ripped up his favorite creation to build humanity. At least, that's the old fluff.

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What if it was a mutual thing?

Sometimes Isidoros might walk through Autocthon's factory, because he felt like it.

Other times Autocthon vivisects a bunch of SWLIHN's favorite species because he was wondering how they worked.

 

[RedV]

Like?

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Since we're talking about Infernals/Primordials with Autochthonian charms, budding souls to represent your Autochthon investment and killing them with the spirit killer from Malfeas is probably legit, if you want to go with the souls as charmsets interpretation.

Sadly, this leads to essentially a self inflicted lobotomy that may result in, say, your urge to grow being pruned from yourself, may result in collateral damage (ie: you had that Ebon Dragon charm that lets you become a creature of Death with your Auto charms as your Trangressive Soul? You probably lose those too)

Otherwise you may want to get a loyal Sidereal Martial Artist to attempt to do this with Obsidian Shards (why would you want obsidian shards i dunno, but iirc it has a charm to redistribute traits).

You may also voluntarily lose Permanent essence dots, which means that your powers are hugely weakened but you lose access to Auto charms that cause much of the cancer problem.

Or go Devil Tiger if you don't mind losing XP and bearing the cancer till you reach E6.

 

[Accelerator]

Since we're talking about Infernals/Primordials with Autochthonian charms, budding souls to represent your Autochthon investment and killing them with the spirit killer from Malfeas is probably legit, if you want to go with the souls as charmsets interpretation.

Sadly, this leads to essentially a self inflicted lobotomy that may result in, say, your urge to grow being pruned from yourself, may result in collateral damage (ie: you had that Ebon Dragon charm that lets you become a creature of Death with your Auto charms as your Trangressive Soul? You probably lose those too)

Otherwise you may want to get a loyal Sidereal Martial Artist to attempt to do this with Obsidian Shards (why would you want obsidian shards i dunno, but iirc it has a charm to redistribute traits).

You may also voluntarily lose Permanent essence dots, which means that your powers is hugely weakened but you lose access to Auto charms that cause much of the cancer problem.

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Isn't that incredibly drastic thing to do?

I'm somehow thinking of it being possible to..... uninstall it. Since ya know, the link between Autochthon and the alchemicals.

 

[Jon Chung]

Don't be unimaginative. There are various ways to unlearn charms.

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You can't do that any more than you can un-kill someone. Infernal Charms are generally built to make you increasingly inhuman and insane in exchange for being powerful and extremely convenient as long as you use them in their intended way. You don't get to buy the useful tool, use it and then undo the negative effects of buying the tool afterwards.

If you don't want to treat every personal relationship as something you can sever at will as if it had never existed, don't buy Freedom Lets Go. If you don't want to forever look at the world through a lens that only raw metaphysical power is attractive, don't buy Demonic Primacy of Essence. If you don't want to be bound to forever be more effective whenever you lie and be incapable of being effective while being honest, don't buy Witness to Darkness.

Of course, if you want the stuff that have these things as prerequisites, you probably are going to buy them, and that is a permanent alteration to your nature - less human, more Primordial. These things are usually placed as prerequisites to juicy powerful effects for a reason.