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- Denmark
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- She/Her
I am legit confused how everyone are pulling so much information out of a single name.
General Exalted Thread
Oh neat, so they're not going to just straight up lift names from Demon this time around.
Because 3e is objectively Hitler von Satanstein and therefore all information must be interpreted in the worst light possible. Especially where everyone's darling Infernals are concerned.
Fair .
But words have meaning, and the fluff does matter .
The choice of naming for Abyssal Castes sent a message about their relationship to the Solars, just as the naming of old Infernals was an attempt to deliberately differentiate them, even though a lot of their foci and abilities remained clearly linked.
In this case, the choice to apparently abandon the previous monikers of Infernal Castes in favor of names that directly mirror Solar Castes would be in and of itself a message as to the direction that development is taking them. Assuming, of course, that this is indeed an actual statement of intent, and not an off-the-cuff remark by a lone developer.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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- He/They
TL;DR: confirmation bias is bad.
There's a series of assumptions that people are making (some of which are reasonable, some of which aren't). The first assumption is that "Penumbra" is the final name of the caste. This is followed by assuming that Penumbra = Eclipse means the rest of the castes have Solar-mirroring names. This is then followed by assuming that the naming scheme of the castes being a mirror means that the splat is being written as a Solar mirror, which is where the assumption shifts from reasonable to egregious. They're then using this assumption to confirm their assumption that 3e is gonna be bad.
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- Denmark
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- She/Her
Oh wow, that was certainly useful; now please inform me how a direct word-for-word aping of the Houses of Demon: The Fallen informs Infernals relation to Solars?
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- United States
Why wasn't the first age an actual Utopia?
It's simple. Because the people in charge don't want that.
Somewhere in 2e there's a note that even in the current setting, Heaven has the ability to run everything in Creation to such a degree that no one gets sick, all life gets the necessary amount of food and water to live long, happy and safe lives. But if they do that, then they stop getting as much prayer as they want. And that's ignoring the fact that the five women running pretty much everything in Creation are fucking nuts because they have to be. Heaven has gods devoted to slavery and murder just as much as any two good things you'd care to name.
And the exalts of the first age aren't what we would call enlightened. The sun told them all the go out and be righteous, not run out and make utopia. They aren't anything near the same things.
Also, regarding the pearl clutching over a tweet:
It's simple. Because the people in charge don't want that.
Somewhere in 2e there's a note that even in the current setting, Heaven has the ability to run everything in Creation to such a degree that no one gets sick, all life gets the necessary amount of food and water to live long, happy and safe lives. But if they do that, then they stop getting as much prayer as they want. And that's ignoring the fact that the five women running pretty much everything in Creation are fucking nuts because they have to be. Heaven has gods devoted to slavery and murder just as much as any two good things you'd care to name.
And the exalts of the first age aren't what we would call enlightened. The sun told them all the go out and be righteous, not run out and make utopia. They aren't anything near the same things.
Also, regarding the pearl clutching over a tweet:
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- Ottawa
I agree that it's best not to read too much into that tweet, but I see why it bothers people. The big worry about 3e Infernals is that they might just be green-painted Solars, and the new caste name seems to fit with that.
That doesn't really make sense, though. If the gods made Creation a utopia then you can bet there'd be ceaseless prayers of gratitude. In a world of peace and plenty people could pray six hours a day, and if the gods made it clear that that was a the payment they expected for their paradise-making then people absolutely would.
And even if it made sense it would be a pretty lame setting detail.
Best to ignore whatever book said that.
That doesn't really make sense, though. If the gods made Creation a utopia then you can bet there'd be ceaseless prayers of gratitude. In a world of peace and plenty people could pray six hours a day, and if the gods made it clear that that was a the payment they expected for their paradise-making then people absolutely would.
And even if it made sense it would be a pretty lame setting detail.
Best to ignore whatever book said that.
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- United States
People are, like, wicked lazy if they can get away with it. Unless you compelled people to pray, like it was a job and if you don't pray you don't eat, then people would shirk their duty to do something else because they don't need to work to enjoy the bounty heaven rains down upon them. But if you are compelling people to pray or you'll take away their food, how is that not slavery? It might be more pleasant slavery, but it sure as hell isn't freedom.
Honestly I'd be happy with something along the lines of
"Of the First Age only the barest fragments of knowledge remain, with the most powerful of Yu Shan and Malfeas having sworn mighty oaths to secure it.
Of the Shogunate much more is known even in these fallen times"
The much more vital bits of lore are the Shogunate , the creation spanning dragon blooded empire that immediately preceeds the current era. Whose wonders could be learned and emulated
"Of the First Age only the barest fragments of knowledge remain, with the most powerful of Yu Shan and Malfeas having sworn mighty oaths to secure it.
Of the Shogunate much more is known even in these fallen times"
The much more vital bits of lore are the Shogunate , the creation spanning dragon blooded empire that immediately preceeds the current era. Whose wonders could be learned and emulated
Revlid
blob of bugs
- Location
- England
I was told that the Exalted General was going back to its usual routine of pearl-clutching over motes of dust.
It's a pleasant surprise to see that only two people so far have lost their shit over the corrupted Solars having corrupted Solar names.
Keep it up, guys.
It's a pleasant surprise to see that only two people so far have lost their shit over the corrupted Solars having corrupted Solar names.
Keep it up, guys.
UrsaTempest
Don't Panic!
I actually like Penumbra name. I think it'd fit for Ebon Dragon's caste, even.
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- Ottawa
That's what a job is. You don't work, you don't get paid.
In this case the work is prayer and the pay is paradise. Pretty good deal for the workers, eh?
With a bit of oversight it wouldn't be hard to get two or three times as much prayer as the gods do in the Age of Sorrows.
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That assumes that everyone is perfect though, and that includes the gods. As long as everyone acts for the good of the community and doesn't get the idea to abuse the system to their advantage somehow then yeah everything will work like a well oiled machine.
The problem with societies that are well oiled utopia machines is that people are the grit that messes them up.
This. I really like the idea that the First Age is largely backstory (compared to the Shogunate which is much more recent and important), which is why it can be kept vague. It doesn't matter except in the sense that the power levels then were way bigger, not because Exaltations were more awesome then or whatever but because you had everyone working together and now almost everything that could be salvaged or used to get an advantage has been, and the First Age is more something which you understand from tiny scraps rather than from any real scholarship. Most First Age things should be like... oddities in Numenera. Stuff which has an odd, niche use, because it was part of a much larger system once.
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- Denmark
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And when you do find the stuff that is fully functional...
Well, that's the time you question whether it was really a good idea to get into this place in the first place.
AmineHsu
A worm, not a man, scorned and despised.
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- NoVA
Worth noting:
Micro-preview of Infernals - Onyx Path Forums
"It is intended seriously. Neall and I have spent lots of time discussing Ex3's Infernals."
Micro-preview of Infernals - Onyx Path Forums
"If the Abyssal Castes are dark mirrors of their Solar counterparts, then the Infernal Castes are twisted, warped reflections."
Anyways, I'm disappointed, but it was a long shot of Infernals ever not being Solar mirrors.
It's also years down the line still, so who knows what might happen.
Micro-preview of Infernals - Onyx Path Forums
"It is intended seriously. Neall and I have spent lots of time discussing Ex3's Infernals."
Micro-preview of Infernals - Onyx Path Forums
"If the Abyssal Castes are dark mirrors of their Solar counterparts, then the Infernal Castes are twisted, warped reflections."
Anyways, I'm disappointed, but it was a long shot of Infernals ever not being Solar mirrors.
It's also years down the line still, so who knows what might happen.
Because the people getting upset probably have know fuck all about Houses of Demon: the Fallen? There's not necessarily crossover between Exalted and the various world of Darkness games, especially regarding one of the more minor properties (as oppposed to stuff like Vampire/Werewolf/etc). They're examining it from a purely Exalted background, and in that background it might indicate negative things depending on your viewpoint (ie, how much you value the original design of 2ed Infernals and dislike the decision for Abyssals to mirror Solars).
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- Ottawa
No, it just assumes that at least a few people are occasionally vaguely competent. Creation generates a fair bit of prayer as it is; it could obviously generate more if it wasn't set up in such a blatantly counterproductive way.
Seriously, if people pray as much as they do when there's unlikely to be any reward for it, imagine how much they'd pray if they had every reason to expect excellent pay.
azoicennead
Overly-Affectionate Zombie Squad
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- He/They
We don't actually know what that means in practice.
Seriously, we haven't even seen what Abyssals will look like. Forecasting an entire splat from one fucking word because they're going in a sort of similar direction to a splat that was bad is absurd.
It's also notable that while the design of Infernals was fun and interesting, it had it's own share of issues, especially once transferred to a different combat system. Given how different 3rd edition is, and how it doesn't seem to be reliant on the "here are the 2 charms you need to at least be able to participate", the original design might not be very workable without clunky fixes.
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- United States
It assumes everyone is acting in good faith. If there's not enough rain one season, why is that? Did someone shirk their prayer duty because there's no visible difference between someone actually praying and someone who's going through the motions? Did the god in charge of rain for the district get drunk or skim the profits off somehow to throw a lavish party? And people still have to do all the farming and normal work, and prayer looks like a very cushy job compared to 'real work'. How many people are going to sit by and be happy doing the hard work when someone else can just sit around lighting incense and talking all day?
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- Denmark
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This sort of adresses my point and doesn't adress it at the same time; but basically my assertion is that the 2e Infernal Caste names don't really... say much about the Castes, like what is it again that the Defiler Caste is supposed to be defiling again? Why is it again that the Malefactor Caste is called that? What is Slayer slaying again? Why is Fiend even called fiend at all?
Scourge is a pretty good name though, 10/10 would scourge Creation empty of life.
Anyways, continuing my point, I'm going to assert that I too, like most others in this thread would love for Infernals to be more than just a mirror pointed in the direction of the sun and a badly drawn green smiley on it with the letters, "malfeas wuz hier" affixed to it. I don't hold much love for 3e and have been very critical of it in the past, but I think, bluntly that a lot of this is mindless panic over a non-issue; it's a single word, it's a word with no context, it's word that is related to eclipses.
This is arguably more meaningful than Fiend but we don't know anything yet.
So while it's certainly meaningful and important to be critical and maintain skepticism, I'm just not going to take it seriously when someone informs me of grand truths such as 'words do matter' backed by 'the naming of old Infernals was an attempt to deliberately differentiate them' when it clearly wasn't. They have nothing to do with the Solar Castes and they have just as much nothing to do with the Infernals' own themes and Castes; they are named so because there were things in Demon: The Fallen called those and Exalted likes making links between those two for the shits and giggles, so they named the demon-associated splat things to do with the demon-splat of cWoD.
So like, the comment I made was not that very nice because you can distinctly see how it obstinately refuses to adress any of the points made by @uju32, and I apologize for that, but I genuinely can't help but feel that this is just panic over nothing. When you show up with a Charm preview or a lore preview or even just a small snippet of every Cate and tell me that Infernals will just be Solars with green party hats on, I'm going to agree with you, but until then we've always known that the design goals for Infernals were more emphasis on the corruption of the Solar Exalted. I don't like that decision, I don't think it's interesting at all, but I do think that we should consider ourselves above launching into a multi-page, frenzied argument over a single word.
That said, in the spirit of good faith and not actually wanting a multi-page, frenzied argument over a single word I'm going to extend an apology to both of you for not having been more clear and ask if coming to a conclusion is possible?
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- Spain
Well, honestly i prefer this take. But. Trying keep the first agradezco hidden beyond the mists of time quickly runa into a problem.
That is, that there are loads of still living witnesses around.
First, and most accesible to newbie Exalts, you hace terrestrial gods. There is some leeway here; Most terrestrial gods are weak, small things, with little memorias and overfocused un their domain. And many others died in the cataclysms as well.
But not all, and contacting an old and powerful enough god that he remembers bits of the first age isn't that rare for an Exalt.
Then you have the demon lords. Again, some leeway, since mostrar spent the FA un Malfeas. But, we know that even then lazy
Sorcerers usted them as cheap slaves. Hell, Amalion married a Solar! And interrogating them is relatively simple for a sorcerer capable of binding them.
And finally we have bloody Yu-Shan, which not only has plenty of powerful FA gods (And a few sids) but has literal records.
Ultimately, you can't just hide the FA inside an empty black box. A curious player has many ways to gleam information here and there.
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