The issue mostly comes in when you take the things that several splats are the best at and combine them. An Eclipse using Principle of Motion to store attacks with all the supplemental charms available to her is entirely capable of killing 5 Dragonblooded in one action. Stuff like that breaks balance in half.

Similarly, permanent Infernal Charms are often flat out better than the closest Solar equivalents purely because you don't need to spend motes and actions to activate them.

Then you get to the charms that have the Native keyword and really, really deserve it, like Ascendency Mantle of (Yozi).
That is merely a matter of efficiency not power. And everyone keeps telling me that power is what determines things. And again there's nothing preventing a spirit from just throwing principle of motion on you and hanging around you as an ally
It was almost assumed that would be the case.
 
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So say you manged to turn off the crazy box in Denandsor, and just for hypotheticals you even manage to pacify The Killer Robots how big of a group would you need to resettle the city? How big of a defense force would you need to keep it Independent?
 
So say you manged to turn off the crazy box in Denandsor, and just for hypotheticals you even manage to pacify The Killer Robots how big of a group would you need to resettle the city? How big of a defense force would you need to keep it Independent?
Uh, enough people to populate a city? That's a pretty large range of population. Until yo beat back the jungle around it and get farmland going, you're going to have to ship in food or sharply limit the population based on what you can support through hunting and possibly sorcery. Which is going to be hard because there's a lot of history saying no one goes to that city, so it's going to be difficult to convince caravans to come to the cursed city.

Define independent. Do you mean self sufficient? Or simply not ruled by anyone else with an army?
 
Why was the "Soul Mastery" charm made into a shaping effect in the 2.5 errata?
IIRC:
you could dodge it, and even if it hit you needed to lose a roll off for it to actually kill you.
 
Then it depends on how good your general is and how big your neighbor's armies are and how dangerous they consider you. If you can get the giant killer robots (bleh, gag) out to help with the defense you'll need less actual people.
 
I'm fine with the Void turning you into Tetsuo from Tetsuo: The Iron Man. I wouldn't change that for the world tbh fam.
 
Okay, now that it's not 2am I can properly articulate my thoughts re the state of 'written Autochthonia'
  • Fantasy culture stasis = bad or bad writing. I think we can generally agree on this.
    • Cultural stasis can be handled well if you plan it out properly. Will this work for everyone? Probably not, but it's possible to do it.
  • You have to square the relationship of the Autocthonians with that of their world in a satisfying manner.
    • This includes deciding what kind of tone and aesthetic you want. Cybernetic upgrades, pro-baseline humans, or whatever else floats your boat. The important point here is that whoever's doing the writing is making a decision, not merely deriving a conclusion from an existing text. You can argue both, but knowing what you're arguing is important.
    • This also includes accounting for the relationship between Alchemicals and the Autocthonians. Alchemicals are flat out more capable than the mortals who actually make up the nations and by extension their governments. You must as a writer, create a satisfying circumstance that explains why Alchemicals are not ruling openly or behind the scenes. Or, explicitly play up the conflict of capability vs propriety, or whatever theme you feel like. Again the goal here is to make a decision, and to convey that decision in terms of theming, narrative and so on.
      • Most importantly, related to this, is that you want the people who inhabit this fantastic realm to not come off as idiots. And, generally speaking, ignoring an 'optimal' solution in favor of poorly written tradition or cultural inertia is seen as idiotic or bad writing.
      • However, having said that, trying to write hyper-rational perfect-decision making actors is boring in the same vein as fantasy stasis, so one should be careful not to hug too closely to this metric.
      • Lastly still, Exalted and its settings are intended to be somewhat sub-optimal, so that players can correct things or influence them towards a different, if not superior state.
    • Related to this, and EarthScorpion has proposed as one of his solutions, is to depreciate Metropoli as a concept and make them 'die' as to create a self-propelling circumstance. That's cool for him, but may not be cool for everyone else.
  • The written content of Autocthonia should make it easy and quick to understand how to run a game or play a character set in this realm.
    • What do you do if you're a laborer, a sodalite, an alchemical? 2e suffered under making the vast majority of the content 'combat'.
    • What are the opposing forces or pressures on Autocthonia, be they internally or externally sourced. Do you need to add more, change the existing ones?
I'm sure there's more to go on but I'm out of ideas right now. Autochthonia, like most of Exalted, has problems with its writing. I'm focusing on what those problems are, not specific solutions, because people don't agree on specific solutions. I'm happy if someone likes something I present, but I know full well that what I write may not suit everyone's needs or tastes too.
 
@Dif, in reference to your ideas about remodeling the Void - something came to me out of the blue for how to handle that, and it lines up pretty well with this bit of your post:

It is one of the Maker's flawless machines gone mad.
One way to help define the Void - which fits in somewhat with your idea of the Void as Autochthon's despair and self-loathing melded to his genius - is that the Void is what happens when the Great Maker's brilliance outstrips his wisdom. It's the point where reach exceeds grasp, and careful planning gives way to fevered obsession.

A pious Autochthonian engineer plans everything piece by piece, putting obscene amounts of work into making sure his project will accomplish its defined goals with minimal resource expenditure and without disrupting any of the existing elements of the system it's going to be made within. An Apostate engineer "designs" as much through free association and improvisational engineering as anything else, chasing the idea at the heart of his vision without concern for anything else. He doesn't care about meeting a budget or mitigating the effect his work has on the region, and he doesn't notice if the foundations of his work start to corrode out from under him, because all he can see is the completed design, the wonder he's already assembled in his head, and nothing else in this world matters besides making reality catch up to that idealized image as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that Voidtech is doomed to failure - occasionally unstable, certainly, often riddled with imperfections & unintended consequences, but the Void is still ultimately the wellspring Autochthon delved into when he did his best work. Its real danger is that it is predicated on either selfishness or ideological fixation. A Void devotee asked to justify subverting some of the Great Maker's systems to bring prosperity & peace to his community in exchange for cascading hardships for neighboring settlements would bluntly say "because I don't care about those settlements", or "because what I'm doing with those resources is more important than their survival" - sentiments that can be understood, even sympathized with under the right circumstances, but also ones that are completely and utterly antithetical to the collectivist, "stand together or fall apart" philosophy that's driven survival in Autochthonia for eons.

Because again, when Autochthon himself took the Incarnae's bargain and set out to make weapons that would butcher his siblings, when his rage and grief and personal perspective overwhelmed all other concerns, he was invoking the Void. Whether it takes the form of self-absorption or saintly ideological devotion, Apostasy is about going "Why should your world matter more than my world?" and then doing whatever's necessary to achieve your goals.

Which plays into your previous mentions about Apostates doing things like repurposing sections of Autochthon's world-body to suit their own ends, or trying to build their own world-body by salvaging his own mechanical flesh - and the idea of the Void representing the part of Autochthon that wishes to die and be reborn, no matter the costs & risks inherent in taking such extreme measures.

Thoughts?
 
I am late, and have only recently caught up to the end of the thread
Sending messages back in time is equivalent to going back in time. It certainly can be used to undo your mistakes, because you can send a message of warning back to yourself. Sending warning messages back to yourself lets you undo consequences, so it is not Exalted-OK (it's also not gameplay-OK).
Well, it depends on how you model it. Push-to-past and pull-from-future just depend on which end of the tube you're looking from. And, if we allow for messages from possible futures getting sent back, or messages only being able to be sent back a few seconds...

The game looks exactly the same. Does that surprise negator work because you are supernaturally aware, or because you got a message from your future self saying "Duck!"? From a gameplay perspective, is there a difference?
Also more importantly a RPG where time travel or accurate precognition is possible probably should be like, 99% less complex than Exalted in conflict resolution, because it's important to be able to remember exactly what happened, and what happens when you change things to undo something that happened. Remember that old 1E Alchemical charm which let you rewind a turn that they changed into something else entirely in 2E because fuck doing that in Exalted? Yeah.
CoNTINUUM gets around that by having absurdly detailed bookkeeping. Sufficently Advanced deals with it by saying "We're using a model that while not strictly accurate to the way things work in-universe, is so much simpler to keep track of since only small amounts of information get to travel back. From your perspective, you're getting messages from the future."
 
Because again, when Autochthon himself took the Incarnae's bargain and set out to make weapons that would butcher his siblings, when his rage and grief and personal perspective overwhelmed all other concerns, he was invoking the Void. Whether it takes the form of self-absorption or saintly ideological devotion, Apostasy is about going "Why should your world matter more than my world?" and then doing whatever's necessary to achieve your goals.
My only problem with this line of thought is that it risks attaching Morality to technology the way that 2e's kinda-goony Order/Chaos dynamic attempted too, when Exalted doesn't really try to handle the morality of its actions at all, or when it does, the language used is presented as a position of Power and Might being exerted over a Lesser/Inferior than some sort of objectively-derived Truth. Power over others being used to say what is true or not is always the stronger narrative than a black/white dynamic.

This is why Axiomatic is a poor-man's Holy, because Axiomatic is leveled entirely against "the Bad Ones" who are labeled "the Bad Ones" which "do the Bad Thing," while Holy is based entirely on a list of beings the strongest-god-ever declared to be Not Welcome within his domain, and that nevertheless includes the ghost of your kindly grandmother. Axiomatic is too Clean, and its basis too narrowly defined to hurt innocents or make you question whether the other side has a point or not, while at the same time Voidtech is too Perverse and is not actually a meaningful choice a character can make in wielding it or using it. If you have it, you are now seen as the Bad Guy, as it explicitly does and makes you do Bad Things.

So in a way, this cheapens the underlying ideas behind a lot of what Autochthonia is attempting to do by equating faith, dogma and tools together with technology, because now you have a form of absolutism that says there is only One true Faith, One Dogma and One method to use Tools given to you. By making it about selfish/selfless than "who owns the Power" and an unspoken ideological schism of faith between his spirits, you lock out any trickle-down storytelling potential for a Protestant Reformation from the Octet's Roman Catholics, or a nation like 1e Jarish defined by its unnecessarily strict orthodoxy.

Now, the way I personally choose to handle the existence of Voidtech as a label of "stuff which exists in Autochthonia"? Relies purely on the idea that it is Old, or has been phased-out in favor of the New. Voidtech by itself is not inherently dangerous or corruptive and damaging, so much as it is Backwards and viewed as an inferior and crude implement. Practicing 'voidtech' is the magical equivalent to phreaking payphones, and Voidtech Charms are manually punching cards and filtering them through a command console. Its dated, forcibly-obsoleted technology and untrustworthy for that reason because it is no longer Modern, in a place where innovation is continually trying to repackage what Is into something Better or Different, and its reliability and unchanging nature is seen as blunt construction and stagnancy.

The fact that many Apostates and spirits, now left unattached to the greater hubs of technology and information that supply the Octet and the divine hierarchy, respectively, are forced to revert back to it by matters of necessity and resource-consumption, and therefore are the most common beings associated with its use and resurgence, doesn't help things any.
 
To build on the voidtech point @Dif presents, it still offers options for players, because you can in turn make a concious choice: What if you want to use an aesthetically old, outmoded charm? Mechanically it wouldn't be much different, but it can be a character point of your Alchemical, or to represent the generational gaps between activations or budget concerns.
 
That is merely a matter of efficiency not power. And everyone keeps telling me that power is wet termans things. And again there's nothing preventing a spirit from just throwing principle of motion on you and hanging around you as an ally
It was almost assumed that would be the case.

Wet termans?

Anyway, I wouldn't call giving spirits the ability to grant PoM good design either.
 
@Dif, in reference to your ideas about remodeling the Void - something came to me out of the blue for how to handle that, and it lines up pretty well with this bit of your post:


One way to help define the Void - which fits in somewhat with your idea of the Void as Autochthon's despair and self-loathing melded to his genius - is that the Void is what happens when the Great Maker's brilliance outstrips his wisdom. It's the point where reach exceeds grasp, and careful planning gives way to fevered obsession.

A pious Autochthonian engineer plans everything piece by piece, putting obscene amounts of work into making sure his project will accomplish its defined goals with minimal resource expenditure and without disrupting any of the existing elements of the system it's going to be made within. An Apostate engineer "designs" as much through free association and improvisational engineering as anything else, chasing the idea at the heart of his vision without concern for anything else. He doesn't care about meeting a budget or mitigating the effect his work has on the region, and he doesn't notice if the foundations of his work start to corrode out from under him, because all he can see is the completed design, the wonder he's already assembled in his head, and nothing else in this world matters besides making reality catch up to that idealized image as quickly as possible.

Unfortunately, that doesn't mean that Voidtech is doomed to failure - occasionally unstable, certainly, often riddled with imperfections & unintended consequences, but the Void is still ultimately the wellspring Autochthon delved into when he did his best work. Its real danger is that it is predicated on either selfishness or ideological fixation. A Void devotee asked to justify subverting some of the Great Maker's systems to bring prosperity & peace to his community in exchange for cascading hardships for neighboring settlements would bluntly say "because I don't care about those settlements", or "because what I'm doing with those resources is more important than their survival" - sentiments that can be understood, even sympathized with under the right circumstances, but also ones that are completely and utterly antithetical to the collectivist, "stand together or fall apart" philosophy that's driven survival in Autochthonia for eons.

Because again, when Autochthon himself took the Incarnae's bargain and set out to make weapons that would butcher his siblings, when his rage and grief and personal perspective overwhelmed all other concerns, he was invoking the Void. Whether it takes the form of self-absorption or saintly ideological devotion, Apostasy is about going "Why should your world matter more than my world?" and then doing whatever's necessary to achieve your goals.

Which plays into your previous mentions about Apostates doing things like repurposing sections of Autochthon's world-body to suit their own ends, or trying to build their own world-body by salvaging his own mechanical flesh - and the idea of the Void representing the part of Autochthon that wishes to die and be reborn, no matter the costs & risks inherent in taking such extreme measures.

Thoughts?

You realize that this is literally turning the Void into the sons of Ether, right?
 
Wet termans?

Anyway, I wouldn't call giving spirits the ability to grant PoM good design either.
Thanks for *asking* for clarification. I meant to say "What determines"

As for spirits not even being able to use their charms to bolster Exalts as to attack/hinder them
Then why interact or ally with them at all?
Do they merely exist to be useless bothers for Exalted and reinforce the aesthetic? Because I doubt people say this about demons

The real problem is principle of motion in this instance or at least people not getting that its a "generic template" charm that is supposed to have riders when used by a spirit.
 
I don't claim to know a whole lot about Exalted, but I have read more than a few of the books and absorbed quite a bit through following this thread and Kerisgame and even Keychain of Creation back in the day. Anyway, the discussion of Autochthon got me thinking about his nature once again, and I think we have to actually look at him through the same lens of the other Primordials to be able to better pin down his nature. What is Autochthon?

Autochthon is an inventor. By the standards of the other Primordials he is "sick". This aesthetics are associated with the mechanical. These are the big, core characterizations throughout the books. But the Primordials are more akin to cosmic forces than anything human. Malfeas is a star encased within his own flesh (possibly the most metal way of describing a Dyson shell ever). Cecylene is the speed of light and frames of reference. Adorjan is the hostility of the vacuum. Isidoros is a black hole. The Ebon Dragon is entropy. These aren't all they are, but they are frames to get across the sheer alien nature of these beings.

So where does Autochthon fit into all of this? He's an inventor, progressive, and imperfect. But to invent implies that there was some less advanced version before. Progress implies direction.

What is Autochthon?



Autochton is evolution, or more precisely he is cosmic horror story of entropy driven evolution. He is the rising complexity of the universe because atomic weapons increase the entropy of the universe faster than rocks basking in the sun. He is the blind watchmaker given sight but not foresight. Where the Ebon Dragon is more a metaphysical and moral entropy, Autochthon is the entropy of a steam engine. His "sickness" as far as his siblings were concerned was his own nature. Where their components parts were far more complete and unchanging, it was in his nature to be continuously tearing apart and remaking his Third Circle souls. Where they were constant and enduring, he was finite and frail, because nothing he made could last. He had to be able to cannibalize himself for fuel for his next iteration. But what is he progressing to?

Heat death. The cold blackness at the end of all things when all fuel has been expended. The Void.

In this light, the Primordial War is perhaps not the bullied Primordial just snapping, but the purest expression of Autochthon's nature. The Exalted are the invention by which the Primordials were rendered obsolete, the next step in the evolution of Creation.

I think if you look at Autochthon in this light, you can also break Voidtech and Gremlins and the like into two categories, of which the inhabitants might not actually know the difference. The first is the Old. These are the parts of Autochthon that are breaking down because they are past their expiry date, obsolete metabiology that needs to be replaced. They are vestigial organs and atavisms that no longer serve a purpose but still hang around, using resources. They are antiques that take up space. They are the dead things that still cling to their old life and rob the living of their existence to keep going. These things should be cobbled and patched together, post-apocalyptic steampunk undead monstrosities.

But those should not be Voidtech. No, Voidtech should be the New. Should be the pitiless drive of evolution and self-improvement at all cost. If the Old Gremlins are the parts of Autochthon that had reached the end of their operational lifespan and refuse to retire, the steampunk monstrosities in a dieselpunk world, then the Voidtech Gremlins should be the natural response to the constraints that displacing himself to Elsewhere Autochthon's metabiology would produce. Dark, sleek, solid-state beings able to run efficiently on the necrotic essence that is starting to fill up the Great Maker like the exhaust of a car running in an enclosed space. And if humans get in the way, well, in this latest iteration of the Great Maker there is no need for them. The systems they maintain are old and inefficient, and their elimination will simply make the upgrade process more efficient.

Because Autochthon is progress and evolution, and if the next step has no room for maintaining inefficient systems then it is as pitiless as an asteroid impact or a corporation buying up land for redevelopment. Even if its progressing to oblivion, even if its evolving to extinction.

Anyway, that's my thought on the matter anyway.
 
This is why Axiomatic is a poor-man's Holy, because Axiomatic is leveled entirely against "the Bad Ones" who are labeled "the Bad Ones" which "do the Bad Thing," while Holy is based entirely on a list of beings the strongest-god-ever declared to be Not Welcome within his domain, and that nevertheless includes the ghost of your kindly grandmother. Axiomatic is too Clean, and its basis too narrowly defined to hurt innocents or make you question whether the other side has a point or not, while at the same time Voidtech is too Perverse and is not actually a meaningful choice a character can make in wielding it or using it. If you have it, you are now seen as the Bad Guy, as it explicitly does and makes you do Bad Things.
I will point you at the Heresy Declaration Beacon submodule of Industrial Champion Icon, whereby an Alchemical can declare a person to be a creature of the Void by hitting them.
INDUSTRIAL CHAMPION ICON

Cost: —(4m) [1m]
Mins: Charisma 5, Essence 4
Type: Permanent
Keywords: Axiomatic, Exemplar 1
Duration: Permanent
Prerequisite Charms: Unconditional Imperative Programming

A rosette pattern of the magical materials surrounds the Exalt's soulgem, signifying her identity as an ordained Champion of faith and hierarchy, elevated above the forces of chaos and entropy. As long as this Charm is installed, all social attacks directed against creatures of the Void cost an additional Willpower to resist (to a maximum of five Willpower). The Exalt may also spend four motes in Step Two of combat resolution to perfectly dodge any mental influence that would make him act against the dictates of Clarity, whether to be more human or outright blasphemous to the Great Maker's Design. Use of this defense does not count as a Charm activation, but the Storyteller decides whether it is applicable.

Submodules:
Counter-Dissonance Stabilizer: Upon making a successful social attack against an Alchemical with temporary or permanent Gremlin Syndrome—provided the target does not resist the attack with Willpower expenditure—the attacker may commit one mote plus one mote for each time this effect has been used on that target in her life. The infusion suppresses Gremlin Syndrome for one week, converting Dissonance into Clarity while the motes remain committed. The suppression does not stack. One treatment must wear off before another may be applied. The target may deliberately revert to "normal" at any time by reflexively paying one Willpower.

Heresy Declaration Beacon: If he makes a close combat attack against an enemy who has taken actions that directly and meaningfully threaten the Design of Autochthon or the divine order of his worshipers' society, the Alchemical may pay five motes and one Willpower in Step One. If the attack hits, filaments of light flash outward in every direction like spider webs, and the target becomes a creature of the Void as a Shaping effect, drawing a momentary red glare from all machine spirits who spin fate in the target's current realm of existence. The heretic can remove this label with a full month spent in penitent and rigorous observance of the Great Maker's laws as revealed to Autochthonia or the Jadeborn, a mercy not available to beings inherently associated with the Void.
Threaten Autobot's design or the order of his worshipper's society and you are a valid target.
Says nothing about whether said threat improves either the society or it's design, just that it's disruptive.
 
I will point you at the Heresy Declaration Beacon submodule of Industrial Champion Icon, whereby an Alchemical can declare a person to be a creature of the Void by hitting them.
Threaten Autobot's design or the order of his worshipper's society and you are a valid target.
Says nothing about whether said threat improves either the society or it's design, just that it's disruptive.

Unfortunately that's largely a clone of the solar equivalent that got released in Glories Most High, in context of the fandom if not mechanically. A lot of late 2e is basically 'everyone should do things that Solars do, but Solars should do everything better'. They wanted alchemicals to Not Miss Out. It's just... That submodule existing does not prove that Axiomatic was a well-conceived keyword or concept. It exists because apparently Alchemicals need a Holy-like keyword to fight their Enemies.

Like, of all the 2e charm trees, the one I actually like the most despite it being Offensively Overpowered, was their War and Mass Combat tree. (Nevermind their one damage charm is a clone of Glorious Carnage Typhoon). Alchemical War Charms remember that their warfare environment is claustrophobic tunnel fighting. They're just... disgustingly good buffs too.

Frustration aside, Axiomatic as a concept could totally work, as long as it was clearly defined and given more thought than just 'discount holy'. What if it was more like a pacifying keyword? You use it to make mechanical spirits stand down or listen, to pause in their duties and meet on even ground, talking to you. It could certainly have offensive uses against gremlins or similar, but differentiating it from Holy is important.
 
I don't claim to know a whole lot about Exalted, but I have read more than a few of the books and absorbed quite a bit through following this thread and Kerisgame and even Keychain of Creation back in the day. Anyway, the discussion of Autochthon got me thinking about his nature once again, and I think we have to actually look at him through the same lens of the other Primordials to be able to better pin down his nature. What is Autochthon?

Autochthon is an inventor. By the standards of the other Primordials he is "sick". This aesthetics are associated with the mechanical. These are the big, core characterizations throughout the books. But the Primordials are more akin to cosmic forces than anything human. Malfeas is a star encased within his own flesh (possibly the most metal way of describing a Dyson shell ever). Cecylene is the speed of light and frames of reference. Adorjan is the hostility of the vacuum. Isidoros is a black hole. The Ebon Dragon is entropy. These aren't all they are, but they are frames to get across the sheer alien nature of these beings.

So where does Autochthon fit into all of this? He's an inventor, progressive, and imperfect. But to invent implies that there was some less advanced version before. Progress implies direction.

What is Autochthon?



Autochton is evolution, or more precisely he is cosmic horror story of entropy driven evolution. He is the rising complexity of the universe because atomic weapons increase the entropy of the universe faster than rocks basking in the sun. He is the blind watchmaker given sight but not foresight. Where the Ebon Dragon is more a metaphysical and moral entropy, Autochthon is the entropy of a steam engine. His "sickness" as far as his siblings were concerned was his own nature. Where their components parts were far more complete and unchanging, it was in his nature to be continuously tearing apart and remaking his Third Circle souls. Where they were constant and enduring, he was finite and frail, because nothing he made could last. He had to be able to cannibalize himself for fuel for his next iteration. But what is he progressing to?

Heat death. The cold blackness at the end of all things when all fuel has been expended. The Void.

In this light, the Primordial War is perhaps not the bullied Primordial just snapping, but the purest expression of Autochthon's nature. The Exalted are the invention by which the Primordials were rendered obsolete, the next step in the evolution of Creation.

I think if you look at Autochthon in this light, you can also break Voidtech and Gremlins and the like into two categories, of which the inhabitants might not actually know the difference. The first is the Old. These are the parts of Autochthon that are breaking down because they are past their expiry date, obsolete metabiology that needs to be replaced. They are vestigial organs and atavisms that no longer serve a purpose but still hang around, using resources. They are antiques that take up space. They are the dead things that still cling to their old life and rob the living of their existence to keep going. These things should be cobbled and patched together, post-apocalyptic steampunk undead monstrosities.

But those should not be Voidtech. No, Voidtech should be the New. Should be the pitiless drive of evolution and self-improvement at all cost. If the Old Gremlins are the parts of Autochthon that had reached the end of their operational lifespan and refuse to retire, the steampunk monstrosities in a dieselpunk world, then the Voidtech Gremlins should be the natural response to the constraints that displacing himself to Elsewhere Autochthon's metabiology would produce. Dark, sleek, solid-state beings able to run efficiently on the necrotic essence that is starting to fill up the Great Maker like the exhaust of a car running in an enclosed space. And if humans get in the way, well, in this latest iteration of the Great Maker there is no need for them. The systems they maintain are old and inefficient, and their elimination will simply make the upgrade process more efficient.

Because Autochthon is progress and evolution, and if the next step has no room for maintaining inefficient systems then it is as pitiless as an asteroid impact or a corporation buying up land for redevelopment. Even if its progressing to oblivion, even if its evolving to extinction.

Anyway, that's my thought on the matter anyway.

A. This is really cool.

B. How is cecelyne frame of reference/speed of light?
 
B. How is cecelyne frame of reference/speed of light?

The Five Days Journey is sort of a light cone. It takes a certain amount of time for information to move around at the speed of light, so if you want to move from one reference frame to another you are restricted to a certain minimum time required to do so. In our universe that is defined by the speed of light, in Creation it is defined by Cecelyne.
 
The game looks exactly the same. Does that surprise negator work because you are supernaturally aware, or because you got a message from your future self saying "Duck!"? From a gameplay perspective, is there a difference?

As long as it's simply fluff for a surprise negator (declared after the attack, on the correct step) and therefore definitionally kept within the limit of the resolution of one attack, there should be no practically damaging effect, as you cannot negate anything that has actually already happened by screwing with time.

The main problem with it is that by writing that fluff for your otherwise unexceptionable surprise negator, you have now told the reader that sending information into the past in a useful fashion is possible, as a rule of the setting. Given that the game premise is fundamentally hostile to any form of way to un-dig a hole you have dug for yourself, this is not ideal.

The thing that Exalted is attempting to ensure with its blanket ban on time travel or true resurrection is that there is no way for characters to escape the consequences of what they do with their blazing atomic god-king powers. Kill someone in a fit of pique, they stay dead and you remain a murderer, no matter what you do with their corpse, their souls and third circle necromancy. Burn down a city out of expediency, there's no way to go back and tell your past self to knock it off, and even if you rebuild the city with your demonic worker horde, you still burnt it down. Get yourself killed doing something retarded, your friends can't bring you back.

Most of the time, players want time travel in the game precisely so they can do exactly that. Change what has already happened, to their benefit. Therefore, no time travel, no raising the dead, no reversal buttons, no clever way around it, no loopholes to exploit. There is (or should be) no way to undo what has been done. Telling them that time travel is possible when writing a surprise negator is actively working against this goal - what do you think they're going to try to do when they do something that they now want to undo, if they think time travel is possible?
 
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Thanks for *asking* for clarification. I meant to say "What determines"

As for spirits not even being able to use their charms to bolster Exalts as to attack/hinder them
Then why interact or ally with them at all?
Do they merely exist to be useless bothers for Exalted and reinforce the aesthetic? Because I doubt people say this about demons

People you talk to. Allies that do stuff on your behalf in exchange for reciprocal obligation or out of shared goals or ideology. Enemies to oppose you for whatever reason. Of varying levels of power and ability ranging from a statless little god to Sol bloody Invictus the big cheese Celestial Incarna. Like, you know, pretty much every other NPC in the damn game. What are you trying to argue for, here?

How in the fucking world does charmshare removal prevent spirits from attacking your Exalt, or attacking your Exalt's enemies, or trying to prevent your Exalt from being gangbanged by Wyld Hunter grand killsticks?

The real problem is principle of motion in this instance or at least people not getting that its a "generic template" charm that is supposed to have riders when used by a spirit.

Principle of Motion is the most common example because anecdotally it's usually the first "what the fuck?" event a GM encounters with an Eclipse using their charmshare power, it is not the sole problem with the Eclipse charmshare power. Remember that the sample demons in the back of the corebook have Principle of Motion, there are no rider conditions on its use, and you can compel them to teach it with Demon of the First Circle.

The other common funny one used to be Portal or Hurry Home. Shit caused lulz. And broken games.
 
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