High compassion solars being compelled to go to great lengths to end unjust suffering and bringing great harm and danger to themselves is a feature, not a bug.

If you're a mythic hero controlled by your virtues, you don't go "oh, well, i guess that concidering the social role slavery plays and the cost of trying to end it, it may be justifiable by certain utilitarian standards" you go "AAARAHSDALJSDNALSDN ADASD ASD I I BREAK EVERY CHAIN AND WHEN THERE ARE NO MORE CHAINS TO BREAK I WILL HEAL EVERY SCAR!"

The problem and disconnect comes from '3' being considered high enough that you must free every slave and ensure that everyone is taken care of from cradle to grave.

Like, in every other 1-5 attribute or ability, '3' is just 'above average.' Virtues work in this weirdly binary way where 1-2 mean 'human normal range' and 3-5 mean 'ridiculous caricatures of human behavior.'
 
The problem and disconnect comes from '3' being considered high enough that you must free every slave and ensure that everyone is taken care of from cradle to grave.

Like, in every other 1-5 attribute or ability, '3' is just 'above average.' Virtues work in this weirdly binary way where 1-2 mean 'human normal range' and 3-5 mean 'ridiculous caricatures of human behavior.'
Obviously they must, by this logic work the same, and therefore almost every person has a 3+ rating in a Virtue, this means that slavery was eradicated long ago because Compassion 3 and Temperance 3 are probably the average Virtues for most people; unluckily, the world is a scorched wasteland devoid of life but a few scattered enclaves because Conviction 3 and Valour 3 means that every situation in which a war, including weapons of mass destruction went hot long ago.

Fluff-mechanics integration, ho!
 
Fortunately, Virtue 3 means that characters still basically have a chance of failing a Virtue roll, and if all else fails Taking Limit is actually an option instead of something to be avoided at all costs the way some players tend to treat it as.
 

Okay! Aleph was super-tired, I waited a bit before replying to this primary post. I also hope to at some point tonight post session 8 logs for reals.

For all Aleph says she's floundering as a newbie ST, she's doing a lot better than I did my first time though. I think one thing we've been guilty of especially in Session 8 was that we felt too rushed, mostly due to our highly fluctuating real-life schedules. Quality drops like a rock when players and ST are not in their groove. But yes, I have been playing since 2008 or so, and been in over 15 games, maybe more. Some only lasted a handful of sessions, others lasted a year or more. I personally hold a record of running a game for nearly 3.5 years, before my meatspace job made me stop. That's a bit more than 150 sessions, for just one game. It got up to about 3000+xp i think. On top of this, I actually went to college for game art and design, so while I may lack some foundational skills that ES and Aleph both have in greater quantities, I am still trained in design.

Of course, I deliberately set out to avoid over-homebrewing in inksgame, simply because I wanted to keep the amount of 'make it up as we go' play to a minimum. Time spent homebrewing on day-of-session is time not spent playing the game, and for a very long time, i was frustrated at my inability to A: test homebrew, B: make good homebrew. Since I stopped trying so hard, I've had more fun. (See Aleph, I can do stream of consciousness too!).

Here we acknowledge that Inks is reaching very far- possibly too far. A common response to 'players doing something' is for the ST to freeze, be permissive, to not think through the action or to even guarantee that it's applicable. I don't want to boil gamerunning down to a flowchart, but there is a certain level of decision making and intake of input that follows the model. "Can Inks do this- what happens if she succeeds/fails? what if she can't do it at all?'

The most straight-across advice I can give to Aleph directly, and any Storyteller in general is this: Failure states shoudl be gradated, and the 'scenario' of dealing with them should itself be a fun or interesting setpiece.

It's kind of backwards logic, but if a problem comes up, the storyteller can essentially make it explode, and then put the player in the position to defuse it or otherwise fix the problem. Let's take the orphanage for example. It's going to Not Work eventually. Probably soon.

There are a few ways this can be modeled or approached. Perhaps Aleph demands Inks roll bureaucracy to keep the orphanage afloat from season to season. If it's really dicey, she demands those rolls every month or week- more rolls means more points of failure, and depending on how the rolls are packaged, they may even preclude OTHER actions as this monopolizes Inks's attention.

This demand creates a challenge with a clear mechanical hook: she wants to roll less often. From here she can identify what one needs to 'roll' in her place and secure it with her assets or other actions.

But what if she fails one of these rolls, or something else tips the balance? This leads to a Setpiece or Climatic Engagement, which may or may not be 'on camera' or resolved as a wide-angle dramatic action, but in either case, the center will not hold and Inks must act to resolve the situation. Depending on the actual upset, returning to the status quo might be impossible. The important thing to do here as a storyteller, is to make sure the player can progress, even if they aren't going back to what they had before exactly.

like, any failure condition, and resolving of same, should instruct the player in some way. Note that this isn't how you design encounters for players who make stupid decisions like taunting the wyld hunt. I don't advocate killing players or stacking the deck against them.

So in the case of the orphanage, maybe the children start speaking in tongues and causes a riot. Inks has to quell the riot. From there she has to then figure out what to do wtih the children AND the neomah bordello. Gem likely wouldn't let her keep on as she had been unless she takes extra effort to win them over again, but let's say for the example she can't. The storyteller here has a situation in which they can teach the player something, and also present the player new options or directions to take their plot/plan.

I'm having trouble thinking of specific usecases, but the idea here is that when failure happens, it shouldn't end in binary consequences, and there should be wiggle room to climb back up.

So with regards to 'modelling' a limiting factor, putting demand/limits on her time is generally a good standby. Past that, take good notes- copious notes. Having the logs are fine, but a list of things Going On is much more useful and easier to manage than a multi-session ctrl+f frenzy.

The point about the bordello and 'aren't any better demons' is a point of conveyance, and one that gets worked out as people get used to each other's playing style. I'm used to playing as 'I want to do it this way' instead of asking 'how can I do this'. The latter of which tends to frustrate me because it feels like the ST is playing for me. Obviously this is not always true. as ES pointed out, Inks has access to cattle blood, so all I need to do is sit down with Aleph and hash out the latitude Inks has when dealing with Neomah: "Can you make livestock, stuff that isn't sapient/sophont?"

With regard to Chronicle, Aleph and I finally did figure out a good power we both like for it, but I'll save it for when we reveal it in-session.

The advantage of El-Galabi right now, is that it's paced at the player's speed- if i step over a line and get trapped, then that's on me, but Aleph isn't forcing me to trip a trap, which is a huge thing.

That about covers my reply here.
 
The problem and disconnect comes from '3' being considered high enough that you must free every slave and ensure that everyone is taken care of from cradle to grave.

Like, in every other 1-5 attribute or ability, '3' is just 'above average.' Virtues work in this weirdly binary way where 1-2 mean 'human normal range' and 3-5 mean 'ridiculous caricatures of human behavior.'
I argee, that stuff that was described Earthscropin should be compassion 5, not 3.
 
I'd just like to say that its really interesting and useful to see these debates about how to run an Exalted game especially with the context of 'and here is how we're using them in an actual game'.
 
If we're going through all this song and dance again, it is probably worth mentioning I made a pretty good effort some time ago to hack Virtues together into a less one-size-fits-all model for Classical Heroism, with Compassion's frequent misinterpretations towards 'any dots above 2 means Literal Christ-figure' included.
 
Virtues would actually work pretty well, as a pure carrot system (same way I would argue Limit Break should, if implemented).

I had a pretty successful hack where suppressing a Virtue didn't require a dice roll, it just consumed a Virtue Channel. If you're playing your Virtue 5 saint figure as someone who regularly turns his gaze from suffering, you totally can... it just means you'll have a hard time getting that extra motivating push when acting to help or save others.

The problem is the stick elements were badly implemented, especially for Compassion, in ways that felt limiting and often stupid.
 
I love how this comes up literally every time, we discuss Virtues. :V

In the "less is more" view, if a game mechanic is so persistently misunderstood by many players, and requires so much debate, it is best off deleted. And you can delete Virtues from 1E / 2E with relatively little effort, especially if you're not playing Sidereals or something.
 
The problem and disconnect comes from '3' being considered high enough that you must free every slave and ensure that everyone is taken care of from cradle to grave.

Nah, you just have to supress it now and then. A willpower isn't a great cost.

Most people aren't Exalts, after all.

(Yes, this means that high compassion people in Creation feel depressed and miserable more often than not, but hey. Feature, not bug).
 
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So, here is a summary I wrote for that Stormlight Archive-inspired shard I tossed around approximately forever ago. While its not as informative as it could be, it lets me cover the high points before I move on to writing the history book this kept trying to turn into.

Shard: Pillars of Creation
When the Primordials raised their grand pavilion to shelter them from the storm of chaos around them, they raised three score mighty mountains to hold up the dome of the heavens, lest Creation be crushed beneath the weight of the sky. The greatest and most glorious of these was Mount Meru, the Elemental Pole of Earth that sat at the center of the house of the Primordials, the home of the gods, their servants.

But the splendor of Meru ended when the Primordial Gordius lead an army of monsters from beneath the earth into Yu Shan, the city of Heaven. No one knows what the Gaol of Horrors did with its siblings, not even the Titan's favorite attendants, humanity, who fled their homes in Heaven in unthinking terror; it is only known that the bodies of slain behemoths and dying devas rained from above while the Pillars of the Sky shook, but none have seen nor heard from the Primordial Host since that day.

Since then, Creation has endured a cycle of cataclysms and rebuilding, as Gordius's armies finally break through the Fate-woven seal the Five Maidens used to hold shut the Gate of Yu Shan, inflicting a horrible toll upon the world before they are driven back to the Accursed Isle and into Heaven.

But endure this cycle it does, in large part thanks to the Exalted, those humans who proved worthy of becoming the Chosen of the Gods. Blessed with the power of the Celestial Incarnae, through the bravery and wisdom of the Exalted Host and their allies Creation has withstood the horrors that stream down the slopes of Mount Meru, and driven them back to Heaven. Time and again, the veterans of Gordius's wars of annihilation have helped the world rebuild and recover what it has lost.

Recent years have seen things take a dire turn, however. In the previous cataclysm, all one-hundred and fifty Solar Exalts were slain by the final battle, leaving Creation without a single hero to provide their caliber of leadership and brilliance; to compound this deficiency, agents of Gordium's Neverborn allies managed to breach the temple-laboratory of Lytek, the God of Exaltation, and scatter the Celestial Exaltations awaiting cleansing. Not only did regathering the lost Exaltations consume the attention of the few surviving Lunar and Sidereal heroes, the enemy's gambit delayed the centuries-long cleansing process of the Exaltations, costing the defenders of Creation decades before their new champions could be selected.

The latest generation of the Exalted Host will have only a short time to grow into their new roles and power, and they will have little of their predecessor's efforts to fall back upon. Already Gnosis crosses the sky to signal the beginning of the end; the Four Peoples send their sons to the center of Creation to meet the hordes of the Accused Isle head on, while their fathers rally the nations of Creation to defend the Pillars that Gordius would bring crashing down on their heads.

But they are Exalted, and the first Host had less than they when they forced Gordius's monsters back through the gates of Heaven. And if the ravings of a Lintha Prince about a city of brass beyond a desert of silver sand are more than just ravings, Creation might find unlikely allies at its most desperate hour.

Please feel free to ask questions or make criticisms, if I've actually managed to give you enough substance to actually ask questions about or criticize with just seven paragraphs. :confused:
 
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Please feel free to ask questions or make criticisms

How do the storms tie into this?

If I was writing this shard, I'd have a type of Exalted associated with the storms, and that Exalted type would have three castes; Water, Lightning, and Wind/Air. Using Lunars would work; they've always been associated with wildness, freedom, and nature. You could call them Storm-walkers or something, and since the Wyld is gone it would give them an actual reason to exist in the setting. Dragon Blooded would also work; Stormlight Archive isn't especially Asian in flavor, so getting rid of Earth/Air/Water/Fire/Wood castes and replacing them with Water/Lightning/Air castes would make them fit in the setting while keeping their elemental roots. Call them Stormbloods.
 
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Please feel free to ask questions or make criticisms, if I've actually managed to give you enough substance to actually ask questions about or criticize with just seven paragraphs. :confused:
My main point would be that you can totally have the Primordials still be around (instead of Gordius being able to magically curbstomp the gathered might of them all via the power of Offscreen Villainy) by referencing the Cosmere. Gordius managed to kill Theion somehow, or at least fetich kill him into something incapable of directing the other Primordials, at which point the bulk of the Empyreal Tyrant's former subjects fled into the Wyld beyond their Creation, consumed by the enormity of seeing their blessed leader laid low. There's certainly rumor & legend of paradises beyond the Pillars, where the old gods hold sway, but reaching them would involve blindly traversing the Outer Chaos and hoping to find one of their hidden bolt-holes: at which point you get to find out that the Primordial survivors are largely disinterested in helping reclaim Heaven, either lost in grief for their fallen ruler or simply no longer believing there's any point.

The Neverborn are presumably the result of Gordius wanting to not just defeat his siblings, but defile them, disgrace them in as thorough a manner as possible. All the spooky shit we've seen so far in the Stormlight Archives - the nameless twin horrors that induce the Thrill in warriors and wring mad words of the past from lips of the dying, the spirits that raise up stone bodies from the earth which to lay waste to the cities of man, the Voidbringers - are the broken, twisted remnants of the Primordials' other children, mutilated into toys for their new master.
 
And here we are with Session 8! As of this post, we're up to date. Cheers to @Aleph for running!

Session #8 Logs

We begin with El-Galabi, having concluded the initial survey. One thing you'll notice so far in Sunlit Sands, is that there's not a lot of constant charm-use. This isn't a good or bad thing, but I've noticed that Aleph allows me to do a lot of things with just dice or an excellency. Charms themselves are standout exceptions to the 'day to day' actions of an Exalt.

Part of that is most of what Inks is doing is not really 'in' charmspace per se- some of it's Lore and Investigation and Occult.

Ryabu does not have sufficient defenses against an arm-full of Awe 5 Exalt. Love it or hate it, I firmly argued for there being a mechanical trait that represents how 'pretty' a character is. (App/Awe really is just innate/natural talent for poise and delivery, and I'm aware of the arguments for/against the WoD 6-attribute system).

Part of this comes back to my being a more experienced player, but even though 2e has almost no rolled uses of Appearance, I as a player can better improvise/create rolls based on context cues.

More importantly, and to Aleph's credit, Ryabu has a clearly defined character and obvious drives/biases. One of my personal failings as a storyteller is that I tend to run NPCs as purely game objects without really getting into their characters, wants and desires. The main reason for that is my primary PCs tend to be Solars, and are very goal oriented. Discovering 'a character' is incidental to advancing their own goals. There are exceptions of course.

Having gathered data on El-Galabi, we bring the game back to Gem and Inks's townhouse. This is where we started to really notice the 'sparseness' of the setting- I spent about 3 minutes writing a stunt that in hindsight, was patently awful- 50+ odd words describing 'Inks arranges all her paperwork in a room'.

What I had intended was to imply there were census keepers and record-takers in Gem that Aleph could flesh out as she liked, but we both sort of missed a cue there.

However, drama, intrigue! An angry mob attempted to attack Inks's townhouse while she was gone! Remember that she doesn't have travel magic, so the trip was 16 days or. Aleph had me roll 3 dice, and I for the life of me wasn't sure what was going on until Carsa explained. (Carsa is the pretty slave Inks asked for when she first met the Despot; Carsa is now the majordomo/custodian of Inks's house.)

As it turns out- and I credit Aleph for great timing on this, the 3 dice I rolled was for her 'Mysterious Ally'. I haven't shown you guys Inks's sheet, but when I chargenned her for this game, I had 3 dots left over and most of the options I had were either boring-useful artifacts/manses, or 'distant' things like mentors and influence. Nothing that fit into the idea of 'rags to riches' Solar.

Having nothing else to do with the dots, we agreed that Inks would have a 'Mysterious Ally', and as Carsa tells her story, we are revealed that he looks like a Ragged, wielding a staff, and fighting with skill and decisveness. Unfortunately, even Maji's 8d+ pool for tracking scents was not sufficient to beat 20+ days of foot traffic and general trail decay.

Moving on from that, I using mechanics, gently throttle Aleph for more information- I think fundamentally, that is the major factor with most games and especially games like Exalted, which give you lots of diagnostic actions or charms. You'll note that Inks has pretty much no charm save for Flawless Diagnosis, that actually tells her anything.

Now, I support the idea of Judge's Ear and where it fits in the 2e paradigm, but consider the ST load to evaluate every statement as a lie or half-truth. This is to some extent, inescapable. This is also why we discussed the idea of inherent spirit-sensing versus gating it behind charm purchases.

Having shaken Aleph down for loose metaphysics, I am armed with knowledge that can let me make informed decisions.

Most importantly, the city itself is not particularly important structurally- I can raze it if I like.

As part of the above research stunt, I attempted to be Clever and instructed my 'employees' to act in my stead, searching for the sorcerery books I had previously looked for- based on the successes I earned, I managed to get one, but the other one went off the market by now- this is actually a wonderful approach to graduating advancement and access to in-game resources. "You got something, but the other thing is now not availible-" but implicity, it still exists- Inks could find the new buyer, ask to borrow it, or buy it outright.

The fact that Aleph actually included an attack on Inks's townhouse changed the whole tone and energy of the session for the positive- it gives me an 'enemy' to seek out, and reinforces Inks's place in the living world. Further, Aleph gradated the actual consequences- I don't know if she would've say, killed Carsa off camera, but maybe she would've been hurt and her house damaged/pillaged? THose kinds of things motivate players, when done artfully. It's a common fear for PCs to have their dependents constantly In Peril.

One of Exalted's advantages as a setting, is that it's intended to be populated by, if not flawless people, than 'good enough' people. Inks is moving to hire guards, and in practical terms, the vast majority of threats that can bypass those guards are ones that are dramatic and worth exploring On Camera. Actions like placing guards is both a statment to the storyteller of 'don't waste my time with small fry' and 'if something does happen, make it fun on camera'.

Here Inks leans on her Contact with the Dream of Flesh to in turn get introduced to a reputable guard business. You might think Inks's incentive structure is overly optimistic, but a lot of her formative experiences boil down to 'grind people down and use them'. So she prefers to build people up and make them long-term lasting investments.

Also as mentioned in a previous post-mortem, this is where Aleph realized that Sahlak has a monopoly of prostitution, but fortunately Inks is already in decent standing and is willing to pay the fee for a license to operate.

The last event of the session is downtime spent learning Flight of the Brilliant Raptor, one of the primary pewpew blaster spells of Terrestrial Circle Sorcery. The idea is to use it to break open the shadowed buildings in El Galabi, as to keep the ghosts from hiding during the day. Time will tell if that's how I do things.

As the post-game discussion notes, something we've been neglecting is the 'pagentry' and 'scale' of Exalted. Exalted is a setting that's intended to house countless stories and strange, wonderful things. And, for a player, strange and exotic challenges to overcome.

Very little Inks has done is actually Showing Her the world and the things in it- the best example was actually way back when she met the Despot for the first time, and he had her wait in a specific room that influenced how she respodned to his actual meeting.

I think a lot of storytellers are action-averse, mostly because they either don't like combat, don't like the combat system, or don't have a good idea of how to write 'action' that isn't combat. Action is better described as 'interesting or dramatic interaction' not 'deadly combat' or 'wild physicality'.

The two examples I tossed out here are pretty indicative- Inks should have been forced to go to a dusty library, and while it might not have been guarded by Wan Shi Tong He Who Knows Ten Thousand Things- that kind of encounter is Dramatic and Actiony.

'Action' includes things like time limits, like being forced out of the library if you don't find what you need fast enough, or having to split time between research and stealth checks. This ties back to my other ramble about graduating failure, as getting kicked out of the library should be a setback that points you into a new 'setpiece' or direction to approach the problem, not an end-state of 'No you will never get to do this ever'.

How you 'get' to something is as much a character point and factor as anything. Inks herself is actually supposed to eventually 'behave' in a manner that is more like an NPC than not- inviting people to drink wine and make deals on her terms, to 'be' the setpiece that the plucky heroic mortals have to negotiate. Right now though, Inks is the plucky seeker, not the 'dragon' sitting on their hoard of plot-advancement.

Aleph here tends to be focusing on the 'spiritual', but I actually more want to emphasize the 'Magical' and 'Wonderful', the places and people with History and Grandeur to their name.

A good example of what i mean is from an old sidereal game I ran, where the PCs went to a bar that catered to the Chosen of Battles and war-gods. Like how sports bars have memorabilia pinned to the walls, this bar had banners and flags from military units across the ages hanging from the rafters- details like that immediately sell the character of the location and its inhabitants.

So the idea here is that these locales should become the 'focal points' of future play- especially if the player, me in this case, are enamored with their character. If the library setpiece becomes Fun, it can recur, and be developed further. The key here is that the ST shouldn't be expected to fully flesh something out- but instead given enough detail to capture interest and then fleshed out. If it never comes up again, anything that wasn't used can be streamed into some other idea.

a good example of this absence in Inksgame is location information- the only important locations despite having a a game map Aleph made- are the Despot's palace, Inks's townhouse, the docks, and now the hepatizon factory. None of these have any real meaningful interaction other than 'they're all in/around Gem', but they 'float' around each other. This isn't inherently bad- sometimes you just can't give it all the detail it deserves.

I think the key is that none of those places are very Verb-y, save for the Hepatizon complex and the palace- the Despot 'despots' from the palace, and hepatizon is made in the complex. But there's very little to make players get up and Go there. If Inks had to sell her wares in a specific location in a market, that'd be different. If she had ecclectic neigbors she'd need to schmooze with, that'd be different.

Some of that is on me too as a player- but I don't know my limits as far as homebrewing locations and people to populate it.

That about concludes my Session 8 post-mortem.
 
How do the storms tie into this?
They don't, really. The main source of inspiration I was drawing upon was the "official history" of the Stormlight setting, namely that humans once lived in heaven, but were driven out by The Forces of Evil and then had to fight continuous, brutal wars for their survival.

My main point would be that you can totally have the Primordials still be around (instead of Gordius being able to magically curbstomp the gathered might of them all via the power of Offscreen Villainy) by referencing the Cosmere. Gordius managed to kill Theion somehow, or at least fetich kill him into something incapable of directing the other Primordials, at which point the bulk of the Empyreal Tyrant's former subjects fled into the Wyld beyond their Creation, consumed by the enormity of seeing their blessed leader laid low. There's certainly rumor & legend of paradises beyond the Pillars, where the old gods hold sway, but reaching them would involve blindly traversing the Outer Chaos and hoping to find one of their hidden bolt-holes: at which point you get to find out that the Primordial survivors are largely disinterested in helping reclaim Heaven, either lost in grief for their fallen ruler or simply no longer believing there's any point.

The Neverborn are presumably the result of Gordius wanting to not just defeat his siblings, but defile them, disgrace them in as thorough a manner as possible. All the spooky shit we've seen so far in the Stormlight Archives - the nameless twin horrors that induce the Thrill in warriors and wring mad words of the past from lips of the dying, the spirits that raise up stone bodies from the earth which to lay waste to the cities of man, the Voidbringers - are the broken, twisted remnants of the Primordials' other children, mutilated into toys for their new master.
I was actually going to have the Neverborn be Cemunian and some conspirators he didn't have when he tried to push Cajerron into Creation in canon, who were ultimately slain rather than subjugated for reason the Titans do not speak of (tentatively, because Autochthon accidentally a war crime), and when Gordius marched on Yu Shan he had them at his back to even the odds against his living kin. His army of "Voidbringers" consisted largely of the Neverborn (who are more...mobile in this Shard), their hekatonchire souls, Darkbroods and banished gods who hated the Primordials for casting them aside, ghosts of extinct races, and things like that, as they would fall under his domain and rule.* I also wouldn't say that Gordius would want to defile the Primordials more than necessary to turn them into the Yozi and imprison them (one of his main hobbies, imprisoning stuff) in Malfeas, as I'm tentatively characterizing him as wanting to imprison his siblings so that they could never, ever leave him, and then destroy Creation because he saw that they were giving it more love than they were to him.

That said, I might alter that idea or scrap it entirely, because I like this idea a lot.

Thank you both for the feedback.



*I said, I'm working on the history book.
 
I also wouldn't say that Gordius would want to defile the Primordials more than necessary to turn them into the Yozi and imprison them (one of his main hobbies, imprisoning stuff) in Malfeas, as I'm tentatively characterizing him as wanting to imprison his siblings so that they could never, ever leave him, and then destroy Creation because he saw that they were giving it more love than they were to him.
Ah, I thought he was your setting's version of Odium, a being of endless seething hate for all things that are not himself. Having a Primordial that essentially embodies abusive relationships/enslavement go psycho on the rest of the Primordials is definitely an idea.

His army of "Voidbringers" consisted largely of the Neverborn (who are more...mobile in this Shard), their hekatonchire souls, Darkbroods and banished gods who hated the Primordials for casting them aside, ghosts of extinct races, and things like that, as they would fall under his domain and rule.*
I'm not sure having the Neverborn be mobile and active is such a good move, though. The big point of them is that they're pitiable things, broken and damned and beyond all hope of fixing. They can't move around and give orders because they're not whole or sane things anymore, just the mangled corpses of titans too powerful to disappear, even when reduced to a fate far worse than death. They're so grand, so unimaginably powerful and important, that even when stripped of everything that ever made them themselves and smashed into paste the fumes of that former grandeur refuse to dissipate, and so they cling to the world in a state of eternal fragmented delirium.

Now, the idea of Gordius assembling an army of other creatures which had been forgotten and abandoned by the Primordials, fueled by the boundless (if toxic) power spilling from the opened veins of the Neverborn, that's a good one. Have the Labyrinth originate as a very, very Dark Souls-esque mausoleum and hazardous materials containment facility that the Primordials built for the siblings who would not join them in glory, providing some measure of acknowledgment of the gravity of what was done- but more importantly, walling off their remains so the sight and stench of them wouldn't upset the Primordials' stomachs and containing the rancid rivers of necrotic Essence & tainted dream-spawn emanating from the dead Primordials. Over time, it basically becomes a walled off ghetto for everything the Primordials don't want anymore (*cough, cough*), and even in death those banished there from Paradise find no rest, either lingering as ghosts or becoming so twisted by the ambient necrotic Essence that their souls sink and melt together with the unliving, undying flesh of the Neverborn, so that they are exiled from death just as the Neverborn are, only able to dwindle and hollow over time as each "death" strips away a little more of what they were and replaces it with the tainted stuff of dead titans (which is where you get your Darkbroods).

Gordius chose exile there when the other Primordials spurned him, and then gathered the horrors of the Labyrinth to his banner with promises of retribution and salvation. With the help of hekatonkheires and forsaken gods, he tore open the great wall that had contained the sins of the Primordials, and rode that tide of tainted Essence to the gates of Yu Shan; in its wake, the regions of the Primordials' great Creation nearest the Labyrinth crumbled and sickened, ultimately collapsing into a miserable dreg-heap around its walls to form the Underworld.
 
*furiously scribbling down ideas*

Ah, I thought he was your setting's version of Odium, a being of endless seething hate for all things that are not himself. Having a Primordial that essentially embodies abusive relationships/enslavement go psycho on the rest of the Primordials is definitely an idea.
He was, originally. He sort of evolved as I fleshed out the Shard more, and he sort of became the Primordial version of Tartarus, the pit and prison where the worst monsters and those things that offend the lords of the world are cast to spend eternity in. Hence, he would have access and influence over the Neverborn, as their prison and their warden, and would also have influence over the Darkbroods and Forbidden Gods that the Primordials banished from the light of the Sun in disgust.

I'm not sure having the Neverborn be mobile and active is such a good move, though. The big point of them is that they're pitiable things, broken and damned and beyond all hope of fixing. They can't move around and give orders because they're not whole or sane things anymore, just the mangled corpses of titans too powerful to disappear, even when reduced to a fate far worse than death. They're so grand, so unimaginably powerful and important, that even when stripped of everything that ever made them themselves and smashed into paste the fumes of that former grandeur refuse to dissipate, and so they cling to the world in a state of eternal fragmented delirium.

Now, the idea of Gordius assembling an army of other creatures which had been forgotten and abandoned by the Primordials, fueled by the boundless (if toxic) power spilling from the opened veins of the Neverborn, that's a good one. Have the Labyrinth originate as a very, very Dark Souls-esque mausoleum and hazardous materials containment facility that the Primordials built for the siblings who would not join them in glory, providing some measure of acknowledgment of the gravity of what was done- but more importantly, walling off their remains so the sight and stench of them wouldn't upset the Primordials' stomachs and containing the rancid rivers of necrotic Essence & tainted dream-spawn emanating from the dead Primordials. Over time, it basically becomes a walled off ghetto for everything the Primordials don't want anymore (*cough, cough*), and even in death those banished there from Paradise find no rest, either lingering as ghosts or becoming so twisted by the ambient necrotic Essence that their souls sink and melt together with the unliving, undying flesh of the Neverborn, so that they are exiled from death just as the Neverborn are, only able to dwindle and hollow over time as each "death" strips away a little more of what they were and replaces it with the tainted stuff of dead titans (which is where you get your Darkbroods).

Gordius chose exile there when the other Primordials spurned him, and then gathered the horrors of the Labyrinth to his banner with promises of retribution and salvation. With the help of hekatonkheires and forsaken gods, he tore open the great wall that had contained the sins of the Primordials, and rode that tide of tainted Essence to the gates of Yu Shan; in its wake, the regions of the Primordials' great Creation nearest the Labyrinth crumbled and sickened, ultimately collapsing into a miserable dreg-heap around its walls to form the Underworld.
I'd actually had Gordius basically be the Labyrinth, as it would suit his themes of being an underground prison meant to contain monsters, though I'm not too married to it; such an idea does not preclude him tearing open the Neverborn's prison and unleashing all of the evils and sickening bile contained within, which I really like. The idea has a nice "deliberate Pandora's Box" feel to it, which I think works well for the tone I wanted. I'd probably keep the Darkbroods and Forbidden Gods as being who dwelled underground rather then things from the Underworld, though corrupted ghosts and hekatonkheires both greater and lesser could certainly come from the Neverborn's prison.



Since we're discussing the Underworld and associated locales in some depth, I feel like at this point I should touch upon Autochthon, who is also imprisoned by Gordius beneath the earth; likely not in the same place as the Neverborn, but some place nearby.

In this Shard, when the Primordials decided to grab the Clay Man and take him apart so that they could base humanity off of him, Autochthon uncharacteristically found his spine and protested vehemently. This lead to the Second Shaking of the Pillars (the First being the Cajerron incident that ended with the Neverborn, and the Third being Gordius's invasion of Yu Shan), which ended with the other Primordials breaking into the secret lab Autochthon was hiding him, forcing him into submission, breaking and/or scattering all of his weapons, and throttled the aggressive aspect of his being represented by Debok Moon by imprisoning the comatose Divine Minister in a prison made out of his own Second Circle souls. Which is all a very fancy way of describing a series of events that I imagine went something like this:

Autochthon: NOBODY COME ANY CLOSER! I'LL SHOOT, I SWEAR I WILL!
Other Primordials: Holy shit he's got a gun!
Theion: Okay, everybody, lets just all calm down. Autochthon, we can talk this out, so how about we lower the Essence cannons--
The Dragon's Shadow: *inches his foot forward*
Autochthon: I SAID NOBODY COME ANY CLOSER!
Theion: ME DAMN IT, SHADOW!
Autochthon: *begins firing madly*

And then the Primordials took away all of Autochthon's sharp implements so that he wouldn't be able to hurt himself or others.

I'd say that he wasn't killed like the Neverborn because 1) that happened tentatively because Autochthon accidentally a war crime, and 2) because he was still useful, as he could make awesome stuff.*

Basically, if the Neverborn are the Hekatonkheires of Greek Myth, cast into Tartarus by their father, then Autochthon in this Shard represents their siblings the Cyclopes.

Autochthon is relevant to this topic because I'd had Gordius manage to find where the other Primordials were keeping Debok Moon, and used him to threaten/manipulate Autochthon into making Gordius the tools he needed to overcome their siblings and imprison them (and/or as a control valve on Autochthon's capacity to be aggressive and make superweapons 'n shit.). While such implements would mostly be vague, esoteric devices meant be as offscreen as the victory they helped achieve, I'd also had this include Gordius forcing Autochthon to turn over/reveal the hiding place of the 100 "complete" Exaltations he'd made before the Primordials caught up with him; Gordius then kidnapped Five Days Darkness, and using his Essence and further tainting and empowering it with the necrotic Essence of the Neverborn, had Autochthon create the 100 Abyssal Exaltations**. He then took a group of the Primordial's most favored subject-race, the humans that dwelled and served in Heaven***, and made them into weapons with which to cast down the Titans.


*This may or may not be Primordial Community Service
**Honestly, working out how to logically work in all the different types of Exalts was one of the hardest parts of this whole process, especially the Abyssal Exalts. If you have any better ideas on the matter, please do not hesitate to bring them up.
***This was partially because they wanted all that prayer goodness like in canon, and partially so that they could keep an eye on them, in case being based off of Autochthon's creation allowed him to somehow influence them.****
****Seriously, this is why I said I'd need to write a history book just to cover all this background information. Look at all this shit about just Autochthon.
 
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So wait, what are Infernals for this Shard? Exaltations that were seized by the Yozi and recrafted as a weapon against Gordius? Weapons used by Gordius that were then subverted by the other Yozi opening their Charm sets to them? Some other option?
 
had Autochthon create the 100 Abyssal Exaltations**.
Um. Wouldn't, according to your history, the Abyssals be active for way longer than the Solars, since the Solars were out of action for centuries? When one side has Elder Solar level Exalts and Primordials and Neverborn and 3CDs and the other side has Incarnae, Lunars, and Sidereals only, how are they even holding up?
 
Autochthon: NOBODY COME ANY CLOSER! I'LL SHOOT, I SWEAR I WILL!
Other Primordials: Holy shit he's got a gun!
Theion: Okay, everybody, lets just all calm down. Autochthon, we can talk this out, so how about we lower the Essence cannons--
The Dragon's Shadow: *inches his foot forward*
Autochthon: I SAID NOBODY COME ANY CLOSER!
Theion: ME DAMN IT, SHADOW!
Autochthon: *begins firing madly*

And then the Primordials took away all of Autochthon's sharp implements so that he wouldn't be able to hurt himself or others.
Wait, wouldn't The Dragon's Shadow be supportive of Autochthon in this situation?
Autochthon seems really Doomed here...
 
So wait, what are Infernals for this Shard? Exaltations that were seized by the Yozi and recrafted as a weapon against Gordius? Weapons used by Gordius that were then subverted by the other Yozi opening their Charm sets to them? Some other option?
I sorta briefly referenced that at the very end of my seven paragraph "summary;" the Yozi had been locked in Malfeas by Gordius, but unlike in canon, no one really knew where the prison was, how to get there, or that it even existed, and had only been recently stumbled upon. Around the same time, the efforts to recover the scattered Celestial Exaltations unearthed the remaining 50 "incomplete" Exaltations that had remained lost for all these years. Hence, as a gift to seal the alliance and provide some badly needed back-up, those 50 blank slate Exaltations will be given to the Yozi to make champions of their own with. Bam, Infernals.

I might change that up some, with GardenerBriareus's suggestion of having some/most of the Primordials flee into the Wyld and form little oasis-kingdoms. Titanic Exalts that are sent as token gestures by grieving or apathetic Primordials would be pretty cool, too.

Um. Wouldn't, according to your history, the Abyssals be active for way longer than the Solars, since the Solars were out of action for centuries? When one side has Elder Solar level Exalts and Primordials and Neverborn and 3CDs and the other side has Incarnae, Lunars, and Sidereals only, how are they even holding up?
With significant difficulty, which is a feature in my mind.

It helps that they don't only have the Celestial Exalts, they also have pretty much the rest of Creation to help out as well, though the most significant and enduring allies of the Exalted host are the Four Peoples, the four races that for all practical purposes rule Creation, and form the core of all efforts to repel Gordius's armies and rebuild civilization afterwards: the Dragon Kings, the Jadeborn/People of Adamant, the Lintha, and the Dragon-Blooded.* While there are a vast number of other empires, city-states, and regional powers throughout Creation at any given time, these four form what is basically Creation's NATO. A Celestial who had Backing with one or more of them would use that to define the kinds of fronts they'd be fighting on, as well as the types of resources they'd logically have access to.

*Humans in this Shard are native to Yu Shan, so when the first Dragon-Blooded embraced Gaia's Terrestrial Essence, they were declaring their intent to remain in Creation instead of returning to Yu Shan, should that ever be possible. They sit in a sort of ill-defined area between the Exalted Host and the Four Peoples.

Wait, wouldn't The Dragon's Shadow be supportive of Autochthon in this situation?
Autochthon seems really Doomed here...
Not if Theion or whoever was acting semi-reasonable managed to talk him down, though.
 
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