I'm sure Anhalt wouldn't mind a cow person or two running around. He already has his minotaur war god servants, so its not like he'll have room to complain except on the grounds of copyright infringement.

Don't worry, copyright on cows is owned by the Yozis, and since a neomah is doing it, she's responsible under Cecelynian law for obtaining the valid licences for it.

(Yes, shockingly neomah have a Bureaucracy speciality in "Licensing". This is completely different from their Performance speciality in "Licentiousness")
 
Don't worry, copyright on cows is owned by the Yozis, and since a neomah is doing it, she's responsible under Cecelynian law for obtaining the valid licences for it.

(Yes, shockingly neomah have a Bureaucracy speciality in "Licensing". This is completely different from their Performance speciality in "Licentiousness")
... Now I want to argue that they are related because the etymology of "licentiousness" in Creation derives from the Neomah's supreme ability to loophole their way in to acquiring the licences to copy Yozi IP.
 
This is taking a joke much to seriously but I would expect that there would actually be a demand for Neomah capable of crafting Minotaur or humans with phyiscal Bull attributes such as horns in the South. If Minotars and Bulls in general are considered to be holy to Ahlat than a leader who can point to a child or follower with obvious physical signs reminiscent of these creatures would be able to claim that his cause has the support of Ahlat. A sorcerer or simple demon-summoning thaumaturge who can promise a leader that his heir will demonstrate obvious sings of being blessed by Ahlat would be able to gain a powerful patron.

I would assume that the idea of a "Divine Right of Kings" that reinforced the foundation of leaders in the real world would be even more influential in Creation. The ability of a ruler to act as an arbitrator between powerful supernatural forces d the common citizenry or serve as a director representative of the supernatural would be a key justification for why an individual or dynasty is in charge. The result of this is that the ability of Neomah to provide mortals with children that have signs reminiscent of powerful Gods would be in high demand.
 
I would assume that the idea of a "Divine Right of Kings" that reinforced the foundation of leaders in the real world would be even more influential in Creation. The ability of a ruler to act as an arbitrator between powerful supernatural forces d the common citizenry or serve as a director representative of the supernatural would be a key justification for why an individual or dynasty is in charge. The result of this is that the ability of Neomah to provide mortals with children that have signs reminiscent of powerful Gods would be in high demand.

Right.

Trying to pass demon-blooded as god-blooded has no chance of backfire. None whatsoever.
 
You wouldn't be necessarily trying to pass a demon-blooded as a god-blooded. The goal would simply be to create the impression that your lineage possesses a physical sign of a connection to a powerful and popular supernatural force. In the Realm or areas where Dragon-Blood are greatly respected this would entail giving your children signs reminiscent of strong Breeding. In the South this would entail horns or skin reminiscent of Bulls in order to create the impression that your family has a connection to Ahlat.

The goal would not necessarily be to convince anyone powerful that your family is directly descended from supernatural forces it would simply be to strengthen the idea that your lineage is intrinsically superior and justified in ruling.
 
So the Compassion 3+ character is okay with banishing newborn infants to hell? Yeah they're demons you're booting off to the endless desert, but they're also newborn infants. I'd think most of them are going to just get eaten by sandworms from hell or something.
 
So the Compassion 3+ character is okay with banishing newborn infants to hell? Yeah they're demons you're booting off to the endless desert, but they're also newborn infants. I'd think most of them are going to just get eaten by sandworms from hell or something.

As far as I can tell, demons are usually born 'fully grown'. They're spirits, after all. Any full-blooded Heranhal Inks banished probably tried to perv on her and was otherwise fully sapient/sophont.
 
Well then you're only banishing someone who didn't exist yesterday to live forever in hell, if they survive the five day trek through the endless desert. That seems like something a Compassion 3+ character would have to wrestle with somehow.
 
It seems like it would be reasonable for an otherwise exceptionally compassionate individual to simply not consider demons as people worthy of fair treatment. Human history is certainly filled with examples of highly moral individuals who had no problem the injustices and inequality of their culture because they simply assumed it was the default or never recognized the victims of their society as equals.
 
It seems like it would be reasonable for an otherwise exceptionally compassionate individual to simply not consider demons as people worthy of fair treatment. Human history is certainly filled with examples of highly moral individuals who had no problem the injustices and inequality of their culture because they simply assumed it was the default or never recognized the victims of their society as equals.
There's no "except demons or other people your society says are subhuman" clause on what compassion applies to though. Compassion 3+ is an extreme viewpoint, they regularly are moved to "come to the aid of others in need", not "come to the aid of the right kind of person in need".
 
If you interpret Compassion 3+ so broadly, then the character sort of becomes unplayable as you're a slave to your virtue. All you have to do is point out someone suffering and off they go!
 
That seems more like Conviction overcoming Compassion rather than the character simply not seeing a class of beings as "people".

I think it is possible to use the differing standards of what can be classified as "people" to create some excellent high Compassion characters who are not a slave to their virtue and can still participate in normal society without being forced into a perpetual crusade by its inherent cruelties. One excellent example of this is in Keychain of Creation where the Compassion 5 Misho explains that he does not feel a need to protect the goblins or treat them with mercy as he believes they are "almost literally the nightmares of small children given flesh." A similar example of this in the real world would be a high compassion Slave owner not minding the mistreatment of his slaves or a general massacring a village of "savages" on the basis that they are not real people. I am sure that if you look at human history you can find many famous historical figures known for their high moral standards who also committed horrific atrocities.
 
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Does the character actually know what sending the demon back into Malfeas does? Do they understand what they're subjecting a demon to by doing that or summoning them in the first place? I'd wager they don't have a strong or experiential understanding of what they have to go through and that they and other Sorcerer's are probably not that interested in finding out.

Whether that's born out of apathy or self-preservation or some other impulse will probably vary from person to person, but I think their ability to grasp the implications are contingent upon questions of how they would culturally receive those implications as well as whether they possess the level of knowledge that we do. Not in a binaristic sense of "I am a sorcerer who literally doesn't know where demons come from" and more that you might know they go back to Malfeas and that it takes five days of crossing a hell-desert, but you may very well not realize just how much that actually sucks.
 
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A similar example of this in the real world would be a high compassion Slave owner not minding the mistreatment of his slaves or a general massacring a village of "savages" on the basis that they are not real people. I am sure that if you look at human history you can find many famous historical figures known for their high moral standards who also committed horrific atrocities.


Such people are not high Compassion.

Full stop.

Compassion is not a virtue amenable to loopholing or subjectivity. It is a Virtue which grabs you by the mental collar and rubs your nose in the fact that look at those people there, look at them dying, why aren't you saving them? Why? You could do something and you're not doing something? DO SOMETHING.

Even a Compassion 3 slave owner is, on average, going to constantly running into the rules of their society. You're going to have to suppress your Compassion whenever you see blatant injustices (ie, Diff 1 Compassion checks and at least a third of the Diff 2 checks). Some forms of slavery are more viable than others for a high Compassion slave-owner (for example, a society with short-term indentures as a common thing where the slave still has a lot of rights is more tolerable than the kind of chattel slavery practiced in the US), but human suffering is human suffering from Compassion's PoV.

Even in a chattel slavery society (like, say, the Realm satrapies in the North that use mass chattel slavery for farming), it's playable as a concept, but you're going to be the kind of slave owner who's the reason why the Romans passed laws on how many slaves you could free and the Americans banned manumission. You probably inherited your slaves and are torn apart by internal conflicts between the laws and standards of how you were raised, and your personal standards of right and wrong. And if you see your men beating your slaves, ping, that's a Compassion check.

(You might well Exalt and go "I NOW HAVE THE POWER TO FUCK SOCIETY AND DO WHAT I THINK IS RIGHT". Or you might not Exalt, and still get killed in the Zenith-led slave rebellion because you were still a slave-holder and the once-slave Zenith has declared that the soil must be watered with the blood of slave-holders rather than slaves)

Same for the general. If you are butchering unarmed "savages", because you can see the children running and screaming and you're watching your men cut down people who can't fight back and why aren't you stopping this they might be barbarians but that crying child sounds like your little brother and how is this right but you have your orders and and and

For the case of the demonologist banishing newly made demons back to Malfeas, that's probably not going to initially trigger Compassion - as, after all, that's where demons come from, and it's their home... but a demon who protests or argues that they don't want to go and beats their MDV might well have a chance of expanding their knowledge or affecting their feelings enough that they suddenly are caught up with a problem of "... I might be sending them to their death".

Because, after all, a silver-tongued demon can quite possibly manage to argue that sending a serf-demon back to Hell is "Ignoring the pleas of the oppressed or impoverished. Ignoring the powerful abusing the helpless" - as they are oppressed and helpless.
 
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It probably helps to keep in mind that Compassion, along with the other Virtues, are less the emotions and human virtues they're named for and more cosmic principles that motivate action written into the world at the beginning of time by the Primordials. There's a difference between being compassionate and Compassionate.
 
Possessing a high value in any Virtue will turn you into a slave to it's desires unless you are willing to take Limit, Valour will make you into Literally Leeroy Jenkins Oh My God Dude, Conviction makes you someone willing to kill and cross anyone in service to a higher goal, Temperance turns you into a judging ascetic and Compassion makes you a bleeding heart messianic figure of mercy.

In the paradigm of the Virtues, this is a feature.
 
With all the talks about Compassion triggers and the general hellishness of... well... hell, it got me curious about one thing: back in the First Age, do high Compassion exalts launch humanitarian missions into Malfeas? I'm starting to wonder if the some of the cases of infernalism amongst First Age celestials weren't so much caused by general greed for power but more the case of trying to alleviate the suffering of the masses in hell, which outweigh the population of creation-borns by such staggering magnitudes.
 
With all the talks about Compassion triggers and the general hellishness of... well... hell, it got me curious about one thing: back in the First Age, do high Compassion exalts launch humanitarian missions into Malfeas? I'm starting to wonder if the some of the cases of infernalism amongst First Age celestials weren't so much caused by general greed for power but more the case of trying to alleviate the suffering of the masses in hell, which outweigh the population of creation-borns by such staggering magnitudes.

Largely I doubt such things will lead directly to infernalism, because... well, infernalism involves making deals with the demon lords and demon princes, and they're the assholes who are literally just making Malfeas worse than it needs to be out of spite and hatred. Oh, no doubt at least one Celestial was flipped due to being too Compassionate, but at least one Celestial was probably flipped for being too un-Compassionate and not caring about anyone else's suffering if it benefits them. Hell has many ways.

More likely, high Compassion characters will tend to be very uncomfortable with basically any interaction with Hell, because demon-binding is breaking their will so they're willing to do almost anything they're ordered to, but demons are alien and dangerous. The easiest thing to do is probably to just turn a blind eye - and then act to pass laws in the Deliberative which try to force summoners to treat demons humanely, arguing that even if the demons are bad people, treating them inhumanely makes us as bad as their masters.

(These laws were voted down by sorcerers who were like "fuck that, I want to dissolve demons in magical acid to get raw components for my inventions". Because sorcerers, much like lizards and characters played by @Havocfett, have no sense of right and wrong.)
 
There's no "except demons or other people your society says are subhuman" clause on what compassion applies to though. Compassion 3+ is an extreme viewpoint, they regularly are moved to "come to the aid of others in need", not "come to the aid of the right kind of person in need".
Unless you took the Intolerance Flaw. Although, if you chose to be Intolerant of demons, you probably wouldn't be summoning them in the first place, and if you still were, you'd probably be inefficient at using/organizing them.

the Americans banned manumission.
While your sources might be better than mine, I don't think American ever banned manumission; at least not universally. It wouldn't have been economical to do so, since many if not most cases of manumission were slave owners freeing old, sickly, or crippled slaves, so that they would no long be responsible for feeding them, housing them, etc. Depending on the context, freeing a slave could be less compassionate than keeping them in bondage.
 
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Huh

What would Divis' Charm Tree look like in your opinion, @EarthScorpion?

I should have answered this earlier. But I feel like I need to make bad WW references in the Exalted thread today . Divis would clearly have three overall charm trees.

Divis has arms?!

Divis is gay?!

Divis does quantum bullshit?!

:V

Also, his excellency would always benefit any roll that involves the use of arms.
 
High compassion solars being compelled to go to great lengths to end unjust suffering and bringing great harm and danger to themselves is a feature, not a bug.

If you're a mythic hero controlled by your virtues, you don't go "oh, well, i guess that concidering the social role slavery plays and the cost of trying to end it, it may be justifiable by certain utilitarian standards" you go "AAARAHSDALJSDNALSDN ADASD ASD I I BREAK EVERY CHAIN AND WHEN THERE ARE NO MORE CHAINS TO BREAK I WILL HEAL EVERY SCAR!"
 
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