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General Exalted Thread

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Accelerator said:
How so?
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It's like, obviously DBs are a lot more than just excellencies, but I feel like they're overlooked enough as it is. They're the 'weakest' and most numerous of the Exalts, and a lot of the fluff makes them out to be servants to the Celestials, and I feel like if you gave all humans excellencies that kind of steps a bit on their themes and general feel.

I have difficulty finding the right words to express myself, but I guess what I mean is: if I were to give humans excellencies, I'd try to find a way to make them notably different from DB ones.
 
Parabola said:
It's like, obviously DBs are a lot more than just excellencies, but I feel like they're overlooked enough as it is. They're the 'weakest' and most numerous of the Exalts, and a lot of the fluff makes them out to be servants to the Celestials, and I feel like if you gave all humans excellencies that kind of steps a bit on their themes and general feel.

I have difficulty finding the right words to express myself, but I guess what I mean is: if I were to give humans excellencies, I'd try to find a way to make them notably different from DB ones.
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Ummm.....

Sorry?

So now what, rry and make dragonblooded stronger?
 
Accelerator said:
Ummm.....

Sorry?

So now what, rry and make dragonblooded stronger?
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It's not so much a matter of strength so much as wanting to not impose upon their themes. It's ok for DBs to be relatively weak, yet high in number, because that was their concept.

landcollector said:
Maybe just have these hypothetical Excellencies give only up to (Relevant Specialty) in extra dice for Ability rolls, for a max of 3 dice?
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Well, in the end this is just spitballing, but yeah, I'd guess something like that.
 
Dif said:
This isn't really something I want to get into a debate about, but like "Romani/Rouheni" its close enough to draw uncomfortable parallels. Traveling folk have been persecuted for hundreds of years under the impression of bringing in foreign diseases, general misfortune, lawless vagrancy/thievery, satanic-witchery and fortune-telling/curses, practices dealing with malign powers against the dominant Church, and instilling moral degeneracy in the populace. Up to and including, a legend about a ruler casting them out for having brought their exile upon themselves.

All I am saying is, if you really, truly feel that your setting of choice absolutely needs a bigoted archetype based-out of longstanding prejudices still currently being held against a living people, and your very first instinct in this situation is justifying their own oppression by "magic" recapitulating the very things associated with those prejudices as incontrovertible facts of that people you are making direct inference towards, even if these do not align on a 1:1 scale... maybe you should not do that.
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So, I think this is somewhat unfair to ES's writeup, although the fact that a bunch of people (very wrongly, and somewhat crudely in my view) jumped on the "well obviously you just genocide them" train supports it. What I think they miss, and this somewhat misses, is that just because it's written up as a definitive fact doesn't mean the people in the world are able to perceive it as one. They probably aren't conducting double-blind experiments or anything like that; the epistemic status of this curse may not be that much different from that of blood libels and such in our world.

In addition to all this, it's much harder to play out a story of slowly eroding these decades of prejudice and so on than it is to play out a story of breaking a magical curse. And the story of breaking the curse can be made much more dramatic, with (for example) a climactic magical battle with the witch-queen's daughter. "There are Romani-alikes here" is a good setting element and the curse is a good player hook.
 
@Accelerator if you want to look into transhumanism more, I'm not really convinced Exalted is the best place to do that. Exalted has some transhumanism in it, but RPGs in general are going to have a lot of trouble representing it fully or at scale. I'd recommend you read A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge, as well as Iain Banks' Culture novels (start with The Player of Games and Consider Phlebas as introductions to the setting, then read Excession as the most-transhuman of the already pretty transhuman series [most of its characters are superintelligent AIs], then read The Hydrogen Sonata as the next-most).
 
Eclipse Phase and Sufficiently Advanced are both freely available RPGs with lots of transhumanism in them.

I like Sufficiently Advanced better as a game, but if I was going to cross one over with Exalted it would definitely be Eclipse Phase.
 
Sanctaphrax said:
Preposterously competent. Everything would be way easier for everyone.

World would be pretty utopian, I think. Most of our problems come from the world being a tough place, and those would suddenly become very solvable. Even stuff like basic social friction is much easier to handle when everyone's got magically augmented social skills.

That being said, excellencies don't make people better morally. Much as I'd like to think that we'd use their supernatural bounty to make a beautiful world, it's possible that solving our natural problems would just give us more free time to make unnatural problems for each other.
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Well, it depends a lot on how hard it is to enlighten your essence and learn excellencies. It could easily lead to a world with massive social stratification between people who can afford to spend a decade enlightening their essence and learning an excellency or two and everyone else.
 
Kuciwalker said:
So, I think this is somewhat unfair to ES's writeup, although the fact that a bunch of people (very wrongly, and somewhat crudely in my view) jumped on the "well obviously you just genocide them" train supports it. What I think they miss, and this somewhat misses, is that just because it's written up as a definitive fact doesn't mean the people in the world are able to perceive it as one.
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What is perceived in-setting is totally inconsequential to this, because these trappings are being used together as shorthand to convey and reinforce ideas about diasporan peoples to us, the reader. Real-world prejudice does not live in a vacuum, it is carried through evocative imagery and 'does this remind you of anything' mental associations like "the mystical crone in her caravan tent" or "the mendicant snake-oil salesman," so simply because that prejudice is not shown fully explicit in the text does not mean its effect is negligible to the audience. Writing works through preconceived notions, and the notions used to represent something do matter, especially in combination with eachother.

When you're tackling tropes based on long-held bigotry under the guise of creating fantasy for a diverse audience, the responsibility falls to the author to present it in such a way that the marginalized group being coyly represented by that work are either sufficiently distanced from the harmful associations of that bigotry, or barring that still portrayed as people worthy of respect and not an object of exotic curiosity. I have no skin in this personally, but frankly this is the kind of thing which is sensible enough it should not require a person of Romani descent to come out of the woodwork and ask "please stop associating the heritage of my people with metaphysically-diseased beggars, thieves and prostitutes who regularly consort with demons." Because that person has a 100% greater chance of actually reading this portrayal than a fictional peasant does.

Like I said, this not really a topic I am all that interested in having a drawn-out discussion about, primarily because I don't think the devil's advocate position makes anyone else look good for taking it. Disassembling decades of established prejudice unfairly enforced against a minority might not have the same action-packed pop as a kung-fu duel, but its ultimately the more respectful tack to approach this kind of material. On behalf of the people who live in the shadow of that existing prejudice, rather than simply parading out a nutshell summary of "Exalted: Gypsies" for people to debate as a thought experiment.
 
Yeah I'm with Dif on this one. It's a technically well-written bit, but it carries in a lot of real world cultural baggage and associations that the average Exalted player is probably better served leaving out. Like, I have no doubt that those stories can be done well, but most players just won't have the role-playing or storytelling chops to do them right. And when this kind of story is done wrong, you get the sort of thing mentioned upthread, where people do shit like say that genocide is a defensible solution.
 
Kuciwalker said:
"There are Romani-alikes here" is a good setting element and the curse is a good player hook.
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The thing is, they're not Romani at the core. The name actually is a coincidence and comes from mashing two Iranian surnames together (because Taira is Iran Going Through The Thirty Years War).

Instead, they're Japanese mikos, made into a culture (the historical stuff, that is - not the modern theme park version which is basically to a large extent a cultural recreation).
  • That's why they're shamans who previously practised ecstatic trances as part of a temple structure - to whit; "The early Miko was an important social figure who was "associated with the ruling class." "In addition to her ritual performances of ecstatic trance," writes Kuly, "[the Miko] performed a variety of religious and political functions.""
  • That's why they engage in ritual possession as a way of interacting with spirits. "Kamigakari and takusen may be passive, when a person speaks after suddenly becoming involuntarily possessed or has a dream revelation; they can also be active, when spirit possession is induced in a specific person to ascertain the divine will or gain a divine revelation."
  • That's why they're linked to vice and criminality as mendicants - to quote wikipedia, "The Miko was forced into a state of mendicancy as the shrines and temples that provided her with a livelihood fell into bankruptcy. Disassociated from a religious context, her performance moved further away from a religious milieu and more toward one of a non-ecclesiastical nature. The travelling Miko, known as the aruki Miko, became associated with prostitution." [1]
  • That's why they're in a fringe state of legality - "After 1867 the Meiji government's desire to create a form of state Shinto headed by the emperor—the shaman-in-chief of the nation—meant that Shinto needed to be segregated from both Buddhism and folk-religious beliefs. As a result, official discourse increasingly repeated negative views of Miko and their institutions."
[1] This is, incidentally, part of the reason for their fetishisation in modern Japanese culture according to some studies.
 
Maybe pick a couple of different surnames to mash together. As it is, the similarity of pronunciation contributes to making it look like an on-the-nose reference.
 
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Accelerator said:
How would one start a shard based on transhumanism?
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It really depends; how much of the original Exalted do you want to be in your shard? If you're trying to include references to things like the Yozis* and the Celestial Bureaucracy**, that would create a very different sort of world than one which is more about taking the broader archetypes of the various types of Exaltation, the ideas of Charmtech, anima reactors, & "scientific magic", and maybe even stand-ins for Sorcery/thaumaturgy/Necromancy, and then applying them to a transhumanist scifi setting of your own design.


* Off the top of my head, you could have something where Essence-tech is something that was discovered within the last century or so, and the company/institution responsible for the original breakthrough initially created FCDs as sapient constructs made of Essence for various tasks - and gradually developed more advanced "Essence-based lifeforms" as part of their research into how it all works. The division for researching the interactions between Essence-tech and more conventional forms of power generation (in the hopes of making hybrid technologies) had great success with their "nuclear Essence reactor" early on, but its governing AI was one of the first to begin demonstrating anomalies and signs of possible self-modification. Although they've claimed such errors are rare and easily corrected, the institute is panicking behind closed doors; the more they try to correct the alterations, the harder it is to keep them from returning. It's as if the AIs are "remembering" internal qualities and relationships that were never programmed into them...

** Initial efforts to integrate Essence-tech into general infrastructure proved disastrous; until the advent of personal motonic augmentation, it was considered effectively impossible for a human mind to process the implementation of such things beyond a regional scale. Thus, specialized AIs were created to perform the calculations instead, the first of what would become an entire global network of managerial intelligences that flawlessly handle the challenges of maintaining (and improving upon) the modern world's exceptional quality of life. Recent difficulties in providing uniform service have resulted in the wake of the first of the AIs, Solaris, suffering a catastrophic neural freezeup, leaving unfortunate gaps in the chain of command which the network utilizes. However, accounts of "rampant" activity among local AI managers is completely false.
 
Eh, thanks, but what I was thinking of was a bit different.

Its more on the magitech side. Yes, there are stuff like essence reactors, where you can throw in MM or magically charged materials to get essence, and yes, you can get your own stuff like flying cars, and such.

And you can buy charms. And implant them within yourself. The higher the essence minimum/ scale of effect/ essence cost, the more expensive the charm. Think of them like the charms in alchemical exalted, but more.... friendly to biologicals.

I'll prefer not to include in demons, or the yozis or ghosts, as such. Maybe a bigger focus on artifacts as well.

It's just that, well, these artifacts/ charms cost money. Lots of money. Essence 1? You can get it for the cost of something like a laptop.

Essence 2? More expensive.

Essence 5? Don't even think about it.

Worse thing is, the rich get access to bureaucracy charms.

I'll think of more later.
 
Grave-Grimm
Dogs, Loyal beyond death.
When a man sleeps, he dreams of his old childhood companion; he feels it kick against him in its sleep, its warmth along his side helping to ward off the cold of winter. When trouble comes he hears a warning bark in his slumber or a tongue licking him awake, just in time to face whatever threatens him. This was no dream, for in the Underworld love and compassion have a power they lack in Creation; when a dog has been loved and cared all its life passes on, the love it has been given and the love it returns binds it to the world and its old master.

The Grave-Grimm watches over its living master and their family, acting to protect them to the best its animal mind can. It grants them comfort and companionship in their dreams, just as they did in life, and protects them from the predations of malicious ghosts. A family blessed with one of these ghosts may never realise their good fortune, as the Grave-Grimm demands neither worship or obedience. They are dogs, simple and loving to a fault.

Grave-Grimm take the appearance of what they were in life, though usually cast through a deathly lense; one hound may have freezing breath, another's eyes may burn with pyre flame, while an older, more powerful one may have a carapace made from bone.

Necromancers use much like they would a living dog; as companions, watch dogs and hunting-hounds. Though not the most powerful or intelligent ghost, they are loyal and easy to control. Though their nature is such that not even the bindings of Necromancy can stop them from protecting their master, or to make them hurt them.

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Marrow, The Grimm-Lord
Greater Dead
Ascended Grave Grimm.

Compassion, kindness and love. Those are concepts that the Dowager cannot understand; empathy and kindness shown for no other reason that one can. To her such things are tools, strings to pull and pluck to control, nothing more. That such things might rally foes against her reign escapes her, how could something like sentiment defeat a millennia old Deathlord such as herself?

Unbeknownst to her, it may well be her downfall.

The current Shoat of Mire had a dog once, a mongrel mix of a bulldog and a mastiff with red eyes and keen intelligence that was a sign that it wasn't all mortal hound. She loved it more than anything else; the simple love of a child to her only friend and confidant. When the Dowager discovered this, she forced the young Deathknight to slit its throat as lesson in cruelty, to show that all things will abandon her.

She couldn't have been more wrong.

The lands of the Dowager are besieged; slaves freed as the chains holding them are bitten through, soldiers and lords slain and consumed while caravans carrying tribute and trade are intercepted and destroyed. She is losing territory and treasure as freed Shadowlands and ghostly communities throw off the chains of her rule and unite against her tyranny in the name of the Grimm-Lord. All attempts to retake territory have been temporary, as each force sent out to retake the lost ground inevitably returns mauled, its leaders consumed by a Grave-Grimm the size of stallion.

As the Dowager grows more frustrated, she contemplates sending the Shoat out to destroy this troublesome ghost once and for all. This would prove to be disastrous for her. For the Shoat will almost certainly recognise her old companion and whatever fear borne loyalty will leave as a child is reunited with a companion loyal beyond death.

In appearance, Marrow is a mastiff-bulldog cross with pitch black fur the size of a charger. His eyes are glowing red and his breath sparks with pyre-flame. Despite this, he is of a noble bearing, the intelligence granted to him by his ghost blooded heritage has only grown in death, and has further increased as he consumed the corpus of the Dowager's lackeys. While still incapable of speech, he has managed to grow his instinctual pack mentality into a rudimentary understanding of guerrilla warfare as it leads a massive pack of lesser Grave-Grimm in a campaign against one of the world's oldest tyrants.

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greensun said:
Grave-Grimm
Dogs, Loyal beyond death.
When a man sleeps, he dreams of his old childhood companion; he feels it kick against him in its sleep, its warmth along his side helping to ward off the cold of winter. When trouble comes he hears a warning bark in his slumber or a tongue licking him awake, just in time to face whatever threatens him. This was no dream, for in the Underworld love and compassion have a power they lack in Creation; when a dog has been loved and cared all its life passes on, the love it has been given and the love it returns binds it to the world and its old master.

The Grave-Grimm watches over its living master and their family, acting to protect them to the best its animal mind can. It grants them comfort and companionship in their dreams, just as they did in life, and protects them from the predations of malicious ghosts. A family blessed with one of these ghosts may never realise their good fortune, as the Grave-Grimm demands neither worship or obedience. They are dogs, simple and loving to a fault.

Grave-Grimm take the appearance of what they were in life, though usually cast through a deathly lense; one hound may have freezing breath, another's eyes may burn with pyre flame, while an older, more powerful one may have a carapace made from bone.

Necromancers use much like they would a living dog; as companions, watch dogs and hunting-hounds. Though not the most powerful or intelligent ghost, they are loyal and easy to control. Though their nature is such that not even the bindings of Necromancy can stop them from protecting their master, or to make them hurt them.

--------------

Marrow, The Grimm-Lord
Greater Dead
Ascended Grave Grimm.

Compassion, kindness and love. Those are concepts that the Dowager cannot understand; empathy and kindness shown for no other reason that one can. To her such things are tools, strings to pull and pluck to control, nothing more. That such things might rally foes against her reign escapes her, how could something like sentiment defeat a millennia old Deathlord such as herself?

Unbeknownst to her, it may well be her downfall.

The current Shoat of Mire had a dog once, a mongrel mix of a bulldog and a mastiff with red eyes and keen intelligence that was a sign that it wasn't all mortal hound. She loved it more than anything else; the simple love of a child to her only friend and confidant. When the Dowager discovered this, she forced the young Deathknight to slit its throat as lesson in cruelty, to show that all things will abandon her.

She couldn't have been more wrong.

The lands of the Dowager are besieged; slaves freed as the chains holding them are bitten through, soldiers and lords slain and consumed while caravans carrying tribute and trade are intercepted and destroyed. She is losing territory and treasure as freed Shadowlands and ghostly communities throw off the chains of her rule and unite against her tyranny in the name of the Grimm-Lord. All attempts to retake territory have been temporary, as each force sent out to retake the lost ground inevitably returns mauled, its leaders consumed by a Grave-Grimm the size of stallion.

As the Dowager grows more frustrated, she contemplates sending the Shoat out to destroy this troublesome ghost once and for all. This would prove to be disastrous for her. For the Shoat will almost certainly recognise her old companion and whatever fear borne loyalty will leave as a child is reunited with a companion loyal beyond death.

In appearance, Marrow is a mastiff-bulldog cross with pitch black fur the size of a charger. His eyes are glowing red and his breath sparks with pyre-flame. Despite this, he is of a noble bearing, the intelligence granted to him by his ghost blooded heritage has only grown in death, and has further increased as he consumed the corpus of the Dowager's lackeys. While still incapable of speech, he has managed to grow his instinctual pack mentality into a rudimentary understanding of guerrilla warfare as it leads a massive pack of lesser Grave-Grimm in a campaign against one of the world's oldest tyrants.

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This is so......

COOOOLLLL!!!!!!


Seriously, this is amazing. Wish i could make stuff half as good as this.
 
Accelerator said:
I'll think of more later.
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I think you should just play Aberrant. That's a game built for transhumanist themes and @MJ12 Commando's version makes it actually playable (moreso than Exalted, certainly).

It would be infinitely better at representing the things you want, instead of trying to homebrew what is basically a new game with only tangential relevance to the source material, especially if you're removing the cream (the setting) and keeping the dregs (the mechanics).
 
On another subject, the Eyeless Face is a Primordial or something, right? Was it left up to the individual ST to work out what's going on with that, or did anybody come up with homebrew for it? I mean, my first blush idea is that it's essentially the Primordial of narcissism & self-absorption, which spreads such ideas to all beings around it in pursuit of creating a "perfect world" of total, mutual solipsistic bliss. It has no eyes because it does not need to perceive others, nor inspect its own self for imperfection, and it sincerely believes that its state of being is the ultimate form of existence. Rather than trying to fight it, the Exalted Host simply allowed it to vanish within its own Mythos; Sidereals wove a false Fate to engulf it, Lunars spun hallucinatory webs to keep it from realizing that there was anything outside, and so the Eyeless Face went dormant, believing its perfect world already achieved.

Eventually, though, some enterprising Sorcerer came up with a way to tap its powers, carving off tiny fragments of its world-body and allowing them to coalesce as Minions of the Eyeless Face; theoretically, this was perfectly safe, since the Minions were designed to die when their services were no longer needed, so that the Primordial they spawned from would remain blissfully ignorant of Creation. Then a Solar decided to invent Invocation of the Eyeless Face, and a good many people winced and started trying to plan for when that inevitably went wrong.
 
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